On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 9:32:11 PM UTC+10, David North wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 10:51, jack fredricks wrote:
> > On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 8:34:49 PM UTC+10, David North wrote:
> >> The fielder can say that, but the umpire is not obliged to take his word
> >> for it.
> >
> > Obliged? Sure. They're not obliged to do anything, and can make bad calls as much as they want.
> >
> > My example of a fielder saying "I didn't think the ball was dead" is just an example of actions that might make an umpire decide that ONE, and only one is needed, fielder thought the ball was still alive.
> Yes, _might_. That's a bit different from 'a fielder can say "I thought
> it wasn't dead" which means it isn't.'

Talking in "mights" is silly. The range of mights is very broad.
I say if an umpire gets an indication one player, in that kind of scenario, acts as if they think the ball is alive then an umpire SHOULD consider the ball to still be alive. (obviously excluding events that make the ball automatically dead eg a boundary).

I'm not disputing that an umpire can call the ball dead any time they want. They have that ultimate power.

On 05/02/2024 11:47, jack fredricks wrote:
> On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 9:32:11 PM UTC+10, David North wrote:
>> On 05/02/2024 10:51, jack fredricks wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 8:34:49 PM UTC+10, David North wrote:
>>>> The fielder can say that, but the umpire is not obliged to take his word
>>>> for it.
>>>
>>> Obliged? Sure. They're not obliged to do anything, and can make bad calls as much as they want.
>>>
>>> My example of a fielder saying "I didn't think the ball was dead" is just an example of actions that might make an umpire decide that ONE, and only one is needed, fielder thought the ball was still alive.
>> Yes, _might_. That's a bit different from 'a fielder can say "I thought
>> it wasn't dead" which means it isn't.'
>
> Talking in "mights" is silly. The range of mights is very broad.
> I say if an umpire gets an indication one player, in that kind of scenario, acts as if they think the ball is alive then an umpire SHOULD consider the ball to still be alive. (obviously excluding events that make the ball automatically dead eg a boundary).
What if the player in question (and all of the others) was acting as if
they thought the ball was dead until something happened, such as the
batter picking up the ball, that meant that it was suddenly to their
advantage to act as if they thought it was in play?

In any case, would a fielder who genuinely thought the ball was still in
play be likely to say "I didn't think the ball was dead" before the
umpire had made a decision, rather than just appealing? ISTM that that
would be more characteristic of someone who was lying through their
teeth to try to con the umpire.

--
David North

On Tuesday, February 6, 2024 at 5:43:34 AM UTC+10, David North wrote:
> What if the player in question (and all of the others) was acting as if
> they thought the ball was dead until something happened, such as the
> batter picking up the ball, that meant that it was suddenly to their
> advantage to act as if they thought it was in play?

If the umpire decides that at a given point in time ALL fielders and both batsmen consider the ball dead, then the ball is dead.
A fielder can't then "resurrect" play by changing their mind.

> In any case, would a fielder who genuinely thought the ball was still in
> play be likely to say "I didn't think the ball was dead" before the
> umpire had made a decision, rather than just appealing? ISTM that that
> would be more characteristic of someone who was lying through their
> teeth to try to con the umpire.

You're focusing on the actual wording I used. Instead of those strange words, treat like another action to indicate the player thinks the ball is still live, eg a throw from the boundary in the Ian Bell run out.
But in this made up example that thrower in the *only* fielder who thought the ball was still live. The batsmen and other 10 fielders were walking off for lunch.
And, of course, the umpire hadn't called Over (or Lunch, in this case).
This action by the single player should/would keep the ball alive.