Bought the X^6 a new state of the art mobility scooterer for Christmas.

Tried it out in the grounds of the hotel where we spent Christmas.
Within ten minutes she had hit a gate post and broken a mudguard, but
not to worry. It's only a bit of replaceable plastic.

What is more upsetting is she has a flat in sheltered accommodation in
Leeds owned by Anchor.

They are not allowed to have mobility scooters in the building and there
is no provision to keep them anywhere!

What?

That is so stupid. Most of the residents are over 60 and less abled.

Is it even legal?

I also live in sheltered accommodation owned by The Joseph Rowntree
Housing trust in York. Here we have a dedicated room for scooters, as we
did in my previous JRHT Court.

I'm wondering how to tackle this nonsensical problem on her behalf.

Tone

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 14:46:23 +0000, Hymermut <tone@email.com> wrote:

>Bought the X^6 a new state of the art mobility scooterer for Christmas.
>
>Tried it out in the grounds of the hotel where we spent Christmas.
>Within ten minutes she had hit a gate post and broken a mudguard, but
>not to worry. It's only a bit of replaceable plastic.
>
>What is more upsetting is she has a flat in sheltered accommodation in
>Leeds owned by Anchor.
>
>They are not allowed to have mobility scooters in the building and there
>is no provision to keep them anywhere!
>
>What?
>
>That is so stupid. Most of the residents are over 60 and less abled.
>
>Is it even legal?
>
>I also live in sheltered accommodation owned by The Joseph Rowntree
>Housing trust in York. Here we have a dedicated room for scooters, as we
>did in my previous JRHT Court.
>
>I'm wondering how to tackle this nonsensical problem on her behalf.
>
>Tone
>

What is the _reason_ behind the rule ?

Instead of calling it a motorized scooter - call it a
powered wheelchair and see how they ban _that_
under the human rights laws !
Geeeze. It sure seems like some person or group
has gone power-hungry, with little actual _thought_
entering into the process.
John T.

hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

> What is the reason behind the rule ?

It could be as simple as "we ain't got room to let everyone have one, so
we'll ban anyone from having one" ...

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 15:56:42 +0000, Tease'n'Seize
<tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:

>hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>
>> What is the reason behind the rule ?
>
>It could be as simple as "we ain't got room to let everyone have one, so
>we'll ban anyone from having one" ...
>

Possibly .. my wife's Aunt drove one - into her building
through the sliding doors, down the halls, and into her little
seniors apartment - no big deal.
No leaving them in the hallway - for safety/emergency reasons.
John T.

On 09/01/2024 15:51, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 14:46:23 +0000, Hymermut <tone@email.com> wrote:

>> I'm wondering how to tackle this nonsensical problem on her behalf.
>>
>> Tone
>>
>
> What is the _reason_ behind the rule ?
>
> Instead of calling it a motorized scooter - call it a
> powered wheelchair and see how they ban _that_
> under the human rights laws !
> Geeeze. It sure seems like some person or group
> has gone power-hungry, with little actual _thought_
> entering into the process.
> John T.
>
Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 16:13:43 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 09/01/2024 15:51, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 14:46:23 +0000, Hymermut <tone@email.com> wrote:
>
>>> I'm wondering how to tackle this nonsensical problem on her behalf.
>>>
>>> Tone
>>>
>>
>> What is the _reason_ behind the rule ?
>>
>> Instead of calling it a motorized scooter - call it a
>> powered wheelchair and see how they ban _that_
>> under the human rights laws !
>> Geeeze. It sure seems like some person or group
>> has gone power-hungry, with little actual _thought_
>> entering into the process.
>> John T.
>>
>Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
>batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."
>

I thought of that.
When we bought E-bikes last year, our son warned us about
battery fires - his city fire department is called-out to numerous
fires that are caused by lithium battery failures - and there is
a tremendous amount of energy in those things !
He suspects that cheap aftermarket products and people
"re-building" batteries is a factor.
John T.

On 09/01/2024 16:35, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

> I thought of that.
> When we bought E-bikes last year, our son warned us about
> battery fires - his city fire department is called-out to numerous
> fires that are caused by lithium battery failures - and there is
> a tremendous amount of energy in those things !
> He suspects that cheap aftermarket products and people
> "re-building" batteries is a factor.
> John T.
>
The advice here is not to charge such devices indoors. A lot are bought
on line direct from China, where safety is not a major priority.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 16:13:43 +0000
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
> batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."

Next person to tell me that gets told what powers the phone[1] they
keep in their pocket.

Many many fortnights ago I recall a lithium based primary battery
being withdrawn from the market. It was a thin rectangular affair that some
scrotes had found made effective letter obzof[2] which wouldn't trigger
explosive detectors.

[1] Nokia did have a problem with exploding flatteries once.
[2] Nice rot that - is it new ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 09/01/2024 17:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 16:13:43 +0000
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
>> batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."
>
> Next person to tell me that gets told what powers the phone[1] they
> keep in their pocket.
>
I know what powers my phone and laptops thanks, I also see reports of a
deflagrating bike or hoverboard battery most weeks. I have also seen a
hybrid car with lithium batteries popping away merrily while the fire
brigade stood back and kept people away, as they couldn't safely get
near enough to put the fire out.

I also remember reports of deflagrating phones and laptops.

> [1] Nokia did have a problem with exploding flatteries once.

So did Apple, on the laptop side.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 09/01/2024 15:51, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
> What is the_reason_ behind the rule ?

Dunno. I've emailed Anchor HQ and asked them.

Tone

On 09/01/2024 16:13, John Williamson wrote:
>>
> Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
> batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."

Not that often. In fact I haven't heard of a mobility scooter bursting
into flames around here.

But JRHT is obsessively careful about fire risk. They have regular
official inspections. The fire 'expert' has never suggested that keeping
and charging scooters in the 'undercroft', which is intermediately below
first floor flats, is a risk. However he did advise removing personal
suitcases from a storage rack in the room next door. A rack that had
been use for that purpose for some 60 years.

Tone

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 11:10:01 -0500
hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 15:56:42 +0000, Tease'n'Seize
> <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:
>
> >hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
> >
> >> What is the reason behind the rule ?
> >
> >It could be as simple as "we ain't got room to let everyone have one, so
> >we'll ban anyone from having one" ...
> >
>
> Possibly .. my wife's Aunt drove one - into her building
> through the sliding doors, down the halls, and into her little
> seniors apartment - no big deal.
> No leaving them in the hallway - for safety/emergency reasons.
> John T.

The Great British Railways have banned E-bikes from all of their
properties and conveyances - I dunno why.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

In article <l05bn6FpsorU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> on Tue, 9 Jan 2024 at 16:48:38 awoke
Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>On 09/01/2024 16:35, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>
>> I thought of that.
>> When we bought E-bikes last year, our son warned us about
>> battery fires - his city fire department is called-out to numerous
>> fires that are caused by lithium battery failures - and there is
>> a tremendous amount of energy in those things !
>> He suspects that cheap aftermarket products and people
>> "re-building" batteries is a factor.
>> John T.
>>
>The advice here is not to charge such devices indoors. A lot are bought
>on line direct from China, where safety is not a major priority.
>
Not just China. Boeing in the USofA seem to be having a safety priority
problem ATM. Loose bolts, indeed.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

In article <l05h96FqrkjU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> on Tue, 9 Jan 2024 at 18:23:34 awoke
Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>On 09/01/2024 17:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 16:13:43 +0000
>> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
>>> batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."
>>
>> Next person to tell me that gets told what powers the phone[1] they
>> keep in their pocket.
>>
>I know what powers my phone and laptops thanks, I also see reports of a
>deflagrating bike or hoverboard battery most weeks. I have also seen a
>hybrid car with lithium batteries popping away merrily while the fire
>brigade stood back and kept people away, as they couldn't safely get
>near enough to put the fire out.
>
>I also remember reports of deflagrating phones and laptops.
>
>> [1] Nokia did have a problem with exploding flatteries once.
>
>So did Apple, on the laptop side.
>
Didn't Boeing also have a problem of fires with lithium ion batteries,
that were in the electronics bay of their 787 Dreamliners?
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

On 09/01/2024 21:59, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
> In article <l05bn6FpsorU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
> <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> on Tue, 9 Jan 2024 at 16:48:38 awoke
> Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>> On 09/01/2024 16:35, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I thought of that.
>>> When we bought E-bikes last year, our son warned us about
>>> battery fires - his city fire department is called-out to numerous
>>> fires that are caused by lithium battery failures - and there is
>>> a tremendous amount of energy in those things !
>>> He suspects that cheap aftermarket products and people
>>> "re-building" batteries is a factor.
>>> John T.
>>>
>> The advice here is not to charge such devices indoors. A lot are bought
>> on line direct from China, where safety is not a major priority.
>>
> Not just China. Boeing in the USofA seem to be having a safety priority
> problem ATM. Loose bolts, indeed.
>
Not just Boeing. That aeroplane had suffered three cabin pressure fault
warnings on the previous three flights, and the airline's only response
was to keep it over land.

That type has also suffered from flight cotrol problems and loose bolts
in the rudder area.

A series of fires a few years ago on the then new Boeing 787 was due to
lithium batteries. That grounded all of them for a long time until they
found a cure.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 09/01/2024 22:09, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
> In article <l05h96FqrkjU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson

> Didn't Boeing also have a problem of fires with lithium ion batteries,
> that were in the electronics bay of their 787 Dreamliners?
>
They did.

Luckily, the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that are being installed
on more and more narrowboats are a lot safer than those and the car types.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 09/01/2024 17:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 16:13:43 +0000
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Going by experience el swear, it might be as simple as "They use lithium
>> batteries, don't they? They catch fire and explode..."
>
> Next person to tell me that gets told what powers the phone[1] they
> keep in their pocket.Are you implying they don't catch fire and/or explode?

Usually a non shpxrq [1] about with Lithium battery.
And one that is a LOT smaller (physically and charge wise) than one
which can power a human carrying (or even R/C) vehicle, is what powers
the phone

Most problems arise in the charging phase.
But if they have been altered in any way all bets are off.

Lithium battery fires are extremely violent, if you ever saw one you'd
have a new respect for them.

[1] ROT13 NSFW

John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:l05vm5Fta4iU2@mid.individual.net:

> On 09/01/2024 22:09, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>> In article <l05h96FqrkjU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
>
>> Didn't Boeing also have a problem of fires with lithium ion
>> batteries, that were in the electronics bay of their 787 Dreamliners?
>>
> They did.
>
> Luckily, the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that are being installed
> on more and more narrowboats are a lot safer than those and the car
> types.

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are now appearing in cars. Longer life,
and can be charged repeatedly to 100%.

--
Peter
-----

On 10/01/2024 17:24, Peter wrote:
> Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are now appearing in cars. Longer life,
> and can be charged repeatedly to 100%.
>
>
Interesting. They now accept safety ahead of absolute maximum energy
density, then?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in news:l086e8FbcddU1
@mid.individual.net:

> On 10/01/2024 17:24, Peter wrote:
>> Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are now appearing in cars. Longer life,
>> and can be charged repeatedly to 100%.
>>
>>
> Interesting. They now accept safety ahead of absolute maximum energy
> density, then?

I wouldna know about that. But I'd guess that the lithium batteries in EVs
are much less of a fire/bnag hazard than several dekaliters of highly
flammable liquid.

--
Peter
-----

On 10/01/2024 21:41, Peter wrote:
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in news:l086e8FbcddU1
> @mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 10/01/2024 17:24, Peter wrote:
>>> Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are now appearing in cars. Longer life,
>>> and can be charged repeatedly to 100%.
>>>
>>>
>> Interesting. They now accept safety ahead of absolute maximum energy
>> density, then?
>
> I wouldna know about that. But I'd guess that the lithium batteries in EVs
> are much less of a fire/bnag hazard than several dekaliters of highly
> flammable liquid.
>
>
As a percentage, electric and hybrid car fires are much more common than
IC vehicle fires. About 1 in every 1,000 electric and hybrid vehicles
registered in London burned in 2021. About 1 in every 3,500 fossil
fuelled cars did the same. Don't forget, we have far more than a Century
of practice at designing petrol cars so they don't self ignite.

There have also been far too many fires where the battery packs of
hybrid powered buses have caught light. So far,they have managed to get
all the passengers out intact and mostly ufrazzled.

Half a ton of lithium batteries dunn'arf go when they go. For any
vehicle using lithium batteries, the fire brigade just keep people away
until it goes out of its own accord, then the council replaces the
melted tarmac overnight. The vehicle is left somewhere safe for a few
days, as spontaneous re-ignition after up to 48 hours is a common
occurrence.

In the case of a burning hybrid car I passed on the motorway a few years
ago, the cells were exploding at the rate of one every few seconds and
that side of the motorway was closed for a couple of hours. I took an
alternative route home. When I passed again the following day, there was
a nice patch of fresh tarmac on the hard shoulder and lane 1 where the
fire had been.

LiFePO4 batteries are much less likely to ignite than other types of
lithium battery.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article <XnsB0F5DCB69E281Factura3476@135.181.20.170>, Peter
<myshed@prune.org.uk> on Wed, 10 Jan 2024 at 21:41:46 awoke Nicholas
from his slumbers and wrote
>John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in news:l086e8FbcddU1
>@mid.individual.net:
>
>> On 10/01/2024 17:24, Peter wrote:
>>> Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are now appearing in cars. Longer life,
>>> and can be charged repeatedly to 100%.
>>>
>>>
>> Interesting. They now accept safety ahead of absolute maximum energy
>> density, then?
>
>I wouldna know about that. But I'd guess that the lithium batteries in EVs
>are much less of a fire/bnag hazard than several dekaliters of highly
>flammable liquid.
>
There has been 150+ years plus of experience of vehicles powered by
flammable gasoline. These days car fires involving petrol appear to be
relatively infrequent even after an accident. OTOH there has been
perhaps 15 years of experience of Lithium ion batteries in EVs.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:l08kj4Fdqc4U1@mid.individual.net:

> As a percentage, electric and hybrid car fires are much more common
> than IC vehicle fires. About 1 in every 1,000 electric and hybrid
> vehicles registered in London burned in 2021. About 1 in every 3,500
> fossil fuelled cars did the same. Don't forget, we have far more than
> a Century of practice at designing petrol cars so they don't self
> ignite.
>

Interesting. I asked Google copilot. It said:
"No, fire is not more likely in electric vehicles than petrol vehicles. In
fact, the data shows that petrol and diesel vehicles have a much higher fire
risk than electric vehicles. According to one source, petrol and diesel cars
catch fire 19 times more often than electric cars Another source estimates
that the fire risk is between 20 and 80 times greater for petrol and diesel
vehicles"

I didn't persue the sources.

--
Peter
-----

On 11/01/2024 10:06, Peter wrote:
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in
> news:l08kj4Fdqc4U1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> As a percentage, electric and hybrid car fires are much more common
>> than IC vehicle fires. About 1 in every 1,000 electric and hybrid
>> vehicles registered in London burned in 2021. About 1 in every 3,500
>> fossil fuelled cars did the same. Don't forget, we have far more than
>> a Century of practice at designing petrol cars so they don't self
>> ignite.
>>
>
> Interesting. I asked Google copilot. It said:
> "No, fire is not more likely in electric vehicles than petrol vehicles. In
> fact, the data shows that petrol and diesel vehicles have a much higher fire
> risk than electric vehicles. According to one source, petrol and diesel cars
> catch fire 19 times more often than electric cars Another source estimates
> that the fire risk is between 20 and 80 times greater for petrol and diesel
> vehicles"
>
> I didn't persue the sources.
>
>
I wasn't certain, so I checked using official figures from the London
Fire Brigade and council.

There were about six hundred and fifty fires involving fossil fuelled
vehicles in London, and just over sixty on electric vehicles. In London,
there are over two and a half million fossil fuelled vehicles registered
and about seventy thousand electric ones. (The number of electric ones
is increasing as rapidly as the delivery companies and cabbies can get
hold of them.) Windoze calculator did the number crunching.

Statistics are a ubggre, and you can prove whatever you want to by
misusing them. "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 09/01/2024 22:29, John Williamson wrote:
> On 09/01/2024 22:09, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>> In article <l05h96FqrkjU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
>
>> Didn't Boeing also have a problem of fires with lithium ion batteries,
>> that were in the electronics bay of their 787 Dreamliners?
>>
> They did.
>
> Luckily, the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that are being installed
> on more and more narrowboats are a lot safer than those and the car types.
>
First of all I know two things about narrow boats, nowt and Bugger-all,
so feel free to completely ignore my inane ramblings.

But it seems to me they are a classic case for huge and heavy lead acids
as they need the weight (instead of ballast)and there is lots (FSVO)
space. You do not need, for the most part, small and light high energy
density storage devices in s boat.
Lead acids use a lot maturer technologies, and are ,for the most
part, safe, well a lot safer than LiFes that's for sure.