I've recently taken on an unloved half-allotment (15m x 10m). It's bordered to
the east by mature oak and sycamore, so only gets about 12 hours of sun at
best. The past month I've cleared the site of weeds (largely brambles) and dug
over once.

I'd like to set a third of the site over to fruit trees. Thing is, the last
thing on my mind a month ago was an allotment, and I've never grown much at
all. And reading up on this is becoming bewildering!

I'd like apples, pears and maybe plums, planting this winter or before if
potted. They have to be dwarf stock (allotment rules). Reasonably hardy to
reflect my incompetence and partial sun. Drainage is also uncertain - I
unearthed a quite elabrate brick lined trench that suggests, possibly, a
drainage issue at some point. I think I have space for about 6 - a rough
diagram here: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJu8EH6JKlDlD

I'm probably asking the wrong questions etc, but any guidance welcome.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

In article <tg4sfs$6u5p$1@dont-email.me>, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>I've recently taken on an unloved half-allotment (15m x 10m). It's bordered to
>the east by mature oak and sycamore, so only gets about 12 hours of sun at
>best. The past month I've cleared the site of weeds (largely brambles) and dug
>over once.
>
>I'd like to set a third of the site over to fruit trees. Thing is, the last
>thing on my mind a month ago was an allotment, and I've never grown much at
>all. And reading up on this is becoming bewildering!
>
>I'd like apples, pears and maybe plums, planting this winter or before if
>potted. They have to be dwarf stock (allotment rules). Reasonably hardy to
>reflect my incompetence and partial sun. Drainage is also uncertain - I
>unearthed a quite elabrate brick lined trench that suggests, possibly, a
>drainage issue at some point. I think I have space for about 6 - a rough
>diagram here: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJu8EH6JKlDlD
>
>I'm probably asking the wrong questions etc, but any guidance welcome.

I recommend bare-root trees, whenever is appropriate for them (late
winter?) Pot plants will gain you little. Rootgrow is recommended,
but whether it helps will depend on the soil (i.e. the more fertile the
soil, the less). Watch out for pollination requirements, because a
great many fruit trees are not reliably self-fertile.

As far as plums go, consider a damson and a gage - both are very hard
to buy in supermarkets, and the former is massively more flavoursome
and the latter delicious. Damsons tend to be less pest-ridden than
large plum varieties.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 17 Sep 2022 at 19:05:28 BST, Nick Maclaren wrote:

> In article <tg4sfs$6u5p$1@dont-email.me>, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:
>> I've recently taken on an unloved half-allotment (15m x 10m). It's bordered to
>> the east by mature oak and sycamore, so only gets about 12 hours of sun at
>> best. The past month I've cleared the site of weeds (largely brambles) and dug
>> over once.
>>
>> I'd like to set a third of the site over to fruit trees. Thing is, the last
>> thing on my mind a month ago was an allotment, and I've never grown much at
>> all. And reading up on this is becoming bewildering!
>>
>> I'd like apples, pears and maybe plums, planting this winter or before if
>> potted. They have to be dwarf stock (allotment rules). Reasonably hardy to
>> reflect my incompetence and partial sun. Drainage is also uncertain - I
>> unearthed a quite elabrate brick lined trench that suggests, possibly, a
>> drainage issue at some point. I think I have space for about 6 - a rough
>> diagram here: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJu8EH6JKlDlD
>>
>> I'm probably asking the wrong questions etc, but any guidance welcome.
>
> I recommend bare-root trees, whenever is appropriate for them (late
> winter?) Pot plants will gain you little. Rootgrow is recommended,
> but whether it helps will depend on the soil (i.e. the more fertile the
> soil, the less). Watch out for pollination requirements, because a
> great many fruit trees are not reliably self-fertile.
>
> As far as plums go, consider a damson and a gage - both are very hard
> to buy in supermarkets, and the former is massively more flavoursome
> and the latter delicious. Damsons tend to be less pest-ridden than
> large plum varieties.
>
>
> Regards,
> Nick Maclaren.

Many thanks, appreciated!
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 17/09/2022 17:26, RJH wrote:
> I've recently taken on an unloved half-allotment (15m x 10m). It's bordered to
> the east by mature oak and sycamore, so only gets about 12 hours of sun at
> best. The past month I've cleared the site of weeds (largely brambles) and dug
> over once.
>
> I'd like to set a third of the site over to fruit trees. Thing is, the last
> thing on my mind a month ago was an allotment, and I've never grown much at
> all. And reading up on this is becoming bewildering!
>
> I'd like apples, pears and maybe plums, planting this winter or before if
> potted. They have to be dwarf stock (allotment rules). Reasonably hardy to
> reflect my incompetence and partial sun. Drainage is also uncertain - I
> unearthed a quite elabrate brick lined trench that suggests, possibly, a
> drainage issue at some point. I think I have space for about 6 - a rough
> diagram here: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJu8EH6JKlDlD
>
> I'm probably asking the wrong questions etc, but any guidance welcome.

Bare root trees are the best buy with more choice provided you have the
patience. You might find it worth considering a family tree in a smaller
space and fewer of them.

I have Sunset on Egremont Russet on nominally dwarfing stock M9. My
other fruit trees are larger on unknown old root stock. It is worth
having a small graft of Discovery or another very early apple. They
don't keep at all well so you only want a fraction of a tree of it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 19 Sep 2022 at 09:33:12 BST, Martin Brown wrote:

> On 17/09/2022 17:26, RJH wrote:
>> I've recently taken on an unloved half-allotment (15m x 10m). It's bordered to
>> the east by mature oak and sycamore, so only gets about 12 hours of sun at
>> best. The past month I've cleared the site of weeds (largely brambles) and dug
>> over once.
>>
>> I'd like to set a third of the site over to fruit trees. Thing is, the last
>> thing on my mind a month ago was an allotment, and I've never grown much at
>> all. And reading up on this is becoming bewildering!
>>
>> I'd like apples, pears and maybe plums, planting this winter or before if
>> potted. They have to be dwarf stock (allotment rules). Reasonably hardy to
>> reflect my incompetence and partial sun. Drainage is also uncertain - I
>> unearthed a quite elabrate brick lined trench that suggests, possibly, a
>> drainage issue at some point. I think I have space for about 6 - a rough
>> diagram here: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0zJu8EH6JKlDlD
>>
>> I'm probably asking the wrong questions etc, but any guidance welcome.
>
> Bare root trees are the best buy with more choice provided you have the
> patience.

Yes, thanks - that'll be the way I go with a view to planting this November. I
was going to try and source the trees locally, but I suppose online is an
option - do you/does anyone have a preferred supplier?

> You might find it worth considering a family tree in a smaller
> space and fewer of them.
>

Not sure what you mean - a central pollinating tree? Thing is, I'd like to use
the space with as many trees as I can for aesthetic reasons too. So I'm
prepared to take, say, a yield hit for more variety and tree cover.

> I have Sunset on Egremont Russet on nominally dwarfing stock M9. My
> other fruit trees are larger on unknown old root stock. It is worth
> having a small graft of Discovery or another very early apple. They
> don't keep at all well so you only want a fraction of a tree of it.

Noted, thanks. Just read up on grafting!

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 19/09/2022 10:46, RJH wrote:
>> You might find it worth considering a family tree in a smaller
>> space and fewer of them.
>>
> Not sure what you mean - a central pollinating tree? Thing is, I'd like to use
> the space with as many trees as I can for aesthetic reasons too. So I'm
> prepared to take, say, a yield hit for more variety and tree cover.
>

A family tree is several cultivars grafted onto a single stock, so a
single tree produces fruits of several different varieties. I expect
that the varieties are chosen so that they fertilise each other, but
verifying that is the case would do no harm.

Family trees are commonly apples, but you can get them for stone fruits
and citrus fruits as well. For an extreme example see

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/03/living/tree-40-fruit-sam-van-aken-feat/index.html

--
SRH

On 24/09/2022 18:14, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
> On 19/09/2022 10:46, RJH wrote:
>>> You might find it worth considering a family tree in a smaller
>>> space  and fewer of them.
>>>
>> Not sure what you mean - a central pollinating tree? Thing is, I'd
>> like to use
>> the space with as many trees as I can for aesthetic reasons too. So I'm
>> prepared to take, say, a yield hit for more variety and tree cover.
>>
>
> A family tree is several cultivars grafted onto a single stock, so a
> single tree produces fruits of several different varieties. I expect
> that the varieties are chosen so that they fertilise each other, but
> verifying that is the case would do no harm.

They don't have to be the same fertilisation group (but often are). They
do take a bit more maintenance than classic trees since they are
typically grafted in order of vigour coming away from the stock.

Given half a chance the first grafted scion will go for it leaving the
next one up struggling to put on growth. Even so it is worth trying to
graft cultivars with terrible keeping properties but great taste or
earliness onto an established apple tree to have more choice of fruit.

I find them worthwhile to have a spread of different some of whcih
simply do not keep and need eating off the tree. I'm lucky to have a
walled garden nearby with a range of heritage apples to buy. Most of
them taste great but don't travel at all well.

> Family trees are commonly apples, but you can get them for stone fruits
> and citrus fruits as well. For an extreme example see
>
> https://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/03/living/tree-40-fruit-sam-van-aken-feat/index.html

Amazing!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 25 Sep 2022 at 15:09:26 BST, Martin Brown wrote:

> On 24/09/2022 18:14, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
>> On 19/09/2022 10:46, RJH wrote:
>>>> You might find it worth considering a family tree in a smaller
>>>> space and fewer of them.
>>>>
>>> Not sure what you mean - a central pollinating tree? Thing is, I'd
>>> like to use
>>> the space with as many trees as I can for aesthetic reasons too. So I'm
>>> prepared to take, say, a yield hit for more variety and tree cover.
>>>
>>
>> A family tree is several cultivars grafted onto a single stock, so a
>> single tree produces fruits of several different varieties. I expect
>> that the varieties are chosen so that they fertilise each other, but
>> verifying that is the case would do no harm.
>
> They don't have to be the same fertilisation group (but often are). They
> do take a bit more maintenance than classic trees since they are
> typically grafted in order of vigour coming away from the stock.
>
> Given half a chance the first grafted scion will go for it leaving the
> next one up struggling to put on growth. Even so it is worth trying to
> graft cultivars with terrible keeping properties but great taste or
> earliness onto an established apple tree to have more choice of fruit.
>
> I find them worthwhile to have a spread of different some of whcih
> simply do not keep and need eating off the tree. I'm lucky to have a
> walled garden nearby with a range of heritage apples to buy. Most of
> them taste great but don't travel at all well.
>
>> Family trees are commonly apples, but you can get them for stone fruits
>> and citrus fruits as well. For an extreme example see
>>
>> https://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/03/living/tree-40-fruit-sam-van-aken-feat/index.html
>
> Amazing!

Many thanks both, interesting.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK