Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to sell
more?
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
> sell more?

When you shake the ketchup bottle
First none will come then a lot'll

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 17/03/2024 13:28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
>"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
>> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
>> sell more?
>
> When you shake the ketchup bottle
> First none will come then a lot'll

It is actually a molecular thing. Its the opposite of hitting toffee with a
hammer. Shaking the bottle really does make it more free flowing!

Hth, Chris

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
> > seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
> > sell more?
>
> When you shake the ketchup bottle
> First none will come then a lot'll

You've been peeking!

--
\|/
(((Ï))) - Mr Ön!on
When we shake the ketchup bottle
At first none comes and then a lot'll.

chrisnd @ukrm <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:

> On 17/03/2024 13:28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
> >"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
> >> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
> >> sell more?
> >
> > When you shake the ketchup bottle
> > First none will come then a lot'll
>
> It is actually a molecular thing. Its the opposite of hitting toffee with a
> hammer. Shaking the bottle really does make it more free flowing!
>
> Hth, Chris

Sauce being a non-Newtonian fluid, the best way to make it flow is
to upend the bottle and tap it repeatedly with the back of a knife.
Shaking the bottle is not necessary.

--
\|/
(((Ï))) - Mr Ön!on
When we shake the ketchup bottle
At first none comes and then a lot'll.

On 17/03/2024 14:26, Mr Ön!on wrote:
> chrisnd @ukrm <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 17/03/2024 13:28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
>>> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
>>>> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
>>>> sell more?
>>>
>>> When you shake the ketchup bottle
>>> First none will come then a lot'll
>>
>> It is actually a molecular thing. Its the opposite of hitting toffee with a
>> hammer. Shaking the bottle really does make it more free flowing!
>>
>> Hth, Chris
>
> Sauce being a non-Newtonian fluid, the best way to make it flow is
> to upend the bottle and tap it repeatedly with the back of a knife.
> Shaking the bottle is not necessary.
>
That works too - but personally I try and avoid hitting glass with metal
implements. As for plastic, that can shatter or crack as well :-)

For those interested further:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid

Chris

On 17-Mar-24 12:59, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to sell more?

They (FSVO they) will sell you a squeezy bottle that is intended to sit
nose down. That ought to sort it.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 18:21:45 +0000
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 17-Mar-24 12:59, Brian Gaff wrote:
> > Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
> > seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
> > sell more?
>
> They (FSVO they) will sell you a squeezy bottle that is intended to sit
> nose down. That ought to sort it.

It does round here.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

In article <1qqkin5.17p7tme10ibodvN%onion@anon.invalid>, Mr Ön!on
<onion@anon.invalid> on Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 14:26:47 awoke Nicholas
from his slumbers and wrote
>chrisnd @ukrm <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 17/03/2024 13:28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> >On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
>> >"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
>> >> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
>> >> sell more?
>> >
>> > When you shake the ketchup bottle
>> > First none will come then a lot'll
>>
>> It is actually a molecular thing. Its the opposite of hitting toffee with a
>> hammer. Shaking the bottle really does make it more free flowing!
>>
>> Hth, Chris
>
>Sauce being a non-Newtonian fluid, the best way to make it flow is
>to upend the bottle and tap it repeatedly with the back of a knife.
>Shaking the bottle is not necessary.
>
It flows best if you shake it vigorously when you haven't noticed that
the top is not firmly in place. (Nf qvfpbirerq ol Arjgba naq gura zr)
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

That was why I asked, as even this seems not to work. Its as if they have
just given up. Perhaps pack it in a tube like Toothpaste?

Its just as well its not a Boze Einstein Condensate as it might just creep
up the sides and overflow.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:ZwGJN.26565$_a1e.13145@fx16.iad...
> On 17-Mar-24 12:59, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
>> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
>> sell more?
>
> They (FSVO they) will sell you a squeezy bottle that is intended to sit
> nose down. That ought to sort it.
>
> --
> Sam Plusnet
>

It was this very thing that set me wondering. I had not realised the design
of a flat topped cap was for this purpose until recently. What about a
weight behind a plunger behind the stuff? Kind of like some Talcum powder
works.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:20240317184734.65662d324115c36c520ae91f@eircom.net...
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 18:21:45 +0000
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 17-Mar-24 12:59, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> > Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
>> > seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
>> > sell more?
>>
>> They (FSVO they) will sell you a squeezy bottle that is intended to sit
>> nose down. That ought to sort it.
>
> It does round here.
>
> --
> Steve O'Hara-Smith
> Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
> For forms of government let fools contest
> Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 2024-03-17, Nicholas D. Richards <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
> In article <1qqkin5.17p7tme10ibodvN%onion@anon.invalid>, Mr Ön!on
><onion@anon.invalid> on Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 14:26:47 awoke Nicholas
> from his slumbers and wrote
>>chrisnd @ukrm <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/03/2024 13:28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> >On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:59:33 -0000
>>> >"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Why should one have to stand these upside down to get the stuff out? It
>>> >> seems the minute you open it it stars to thicken. Maybe its a ploy to
>>> >> sell more?
>>> >
>>> > When you shake the ketchup bottle
>>> > First none will come then a lot'll
>>>
>>> It is actually a molecular thing. Its the opposite of hitting toffee with a
>>> hammer. Shaking the bottle really does make it more free flowing!
>>>
>>> Hth, Chris
>>
>>Sauce being a non-Newtonian fluid, the best way to make it flow is
>>to upend the bottle and tap it repeatedly with the back of a knife.
>>Shaking the bottle is not necessary.
>>
> It flows best if you shake it vigorously when you haven't noticed that
> the top is not firmly in place. (Nf qvfpbirerq ol Arjgba naq gura zr)

As we are getting a bit techie I have to add that ketchup is thixotropic,
like non-drip paint. If you agitate it the viscosity drops. Like some
other non-newtonian liquids it's subject to syneresis, where the liquid
component seeps out of the gel structure. (That's the second time in half a
century I've used syneresis in conversation. The first time was in ye
shedde too.) In the case of ketchup the watery exudate is mainly vinegar.
Shaking the bottle mixes it back into the gel. Sometimes it also
redecorates walls and ceilings.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com
Wigan

In article <l5r1f8FlhrpU1@mid.individual.net>, Bernard Peek
<bap@shrdlu.com> on Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 14:30:00 awoke Nicholas from
his slumbers and wrote
>On 2024-03-17, Nicholas D. Richards <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>> In article <1qqkin5.17p7tme10ibodvN%onion@anon.invalid>, Mr Ön!on
>><onion@anon.invalid> on Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 14:26:47 awoke Nicholas
>> from his slumbers and wrote
>>>
>>>Sauce being a non-Newtonian fluid, the best way to make it flow is
>>>to upend the bottle and tap it repeatedly with the back of a knife.
>>>Shaking the bottle is not necessary.
>>>
>> It flows best if you shake it vigorously when you haven't noticed that
>> the top is not firmly in place. (Nf qvfpbirerq ol Arjgba naq gura zr)
>
>As we are getting a bit techie I have to add that ketchup is thixotropic,
>like non-drip paint. If you agitate it the viscosity drops. Like some
>other non-newtonian liquids it's subject to syneresis, where the liquid
>component seeps out of the gel structure.

Like gravy when you put the left over in the fridge? I bet there is an E
number that manufacturers put into pre-made micro-wave meals that stop
that happening.

They do not seem to call them TV dinners any more.

> (That's the second time in half a
>century I've used syneresis in conversation. The first time was in ye
>shedde too.)

>In the case of ketchup the watery exudate is mainly vinegar.
>Shaking the bottle mixes it back into the gel. Sometimes it also
>redecorates walls and ceilings.
>
Or your father's eye, as I found to my cost. Dad was not best pleased.
His temper was short fused at the best of times; they did not call it
PTSD in those days.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

On 18 Mar 2024 14:30:00 GMT, Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:

>Shaking the bottle mixes it back into the gel. Sometimes it also
>redecorates walls and ceilings.

The trick is to put the cap on, and check if it's tight.

DAMHIK, BTDTGTTS.

Thomas Prufer

On 18/03/2024 12:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
> That was why I asked, as even this seems not to work. Its as if they have
> just given up. Perhaps pack it in a tube like Toothpaste?
>
I avoid the promble of getting ketchup out of the bottle by using
sachets like what you would find in a restaurant.

They're a bit dearer by volume/weight but as they are sealed until
required they keep for months (years) in the fridge. Unlike a bottle
that sort of goes off a few months after opening.

link to the online river: (mind the split line)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0052ACVKA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

--
Nev
It causes me a great deal of regret and remorse
that so many people are unable to understand what I write.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 15:04:52 +0000, "Nicholas D. Richards"
<nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:

>In article <l5r1f8FlhrpU1@mid.individual.net>, Bernard Peek
><bap@shrdlu.com> on Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 14:30:00 awoke Nicholas from
>his slumbers and wrote

>>As we are getting a bit techie I have to add that ketchup is thixotropic,
>>like non-drip paint. If you agitate it the viscosity drops. Like some
>>other non-newtonian liquids it's subject to syneresis, where the liquid
>>component seeps out of the gel structure.
>
>Like gravy when you put the left over in the fridge? I bet there is an E
>number that manufacturers put into pre-made micro-wave meals that stop
>that happening.

Xanthan is one... a quick search through "Texture -- A hydrocolloid recipe
collection" yields

"Tips and tricks
- Add xanthan to reduce syneresis (water drainage), even in cold preparations
- Xanthan is shear thinning: liquids are viscous when at rest, but become more
fluid when stirred or sprayed.
- The high at-rest viscosity gives excellent cling properties, for instance in
tempura batters.
- Stabilizes emulsions.
- To keep water from leaking out of vegetable purées, add a touch of xanthan gum
- Often used to keep particles suspended (e.g. herbs, spices etc.)
- Xanthan reduces starch retrogradation in bread and baked products.
- In ice cream xanthan (~0.2%) prevents ice crystal formation during thawing
cycles
- Xanthan can help stabilize whipped cream and mousses
- Xanthan added to gluten free products prevents crumbling and binds the
product.
For best effects use with guar gum in a 2:1 ratio (x:g)."

That should let you get back to sleep, when you wake up at night worrying about
starch retrogradation or unstable emulsions and mousses.

Thomas Prufer

On 19/03/2024 10:21, nev young wrote:
> On 18/03/2024 12:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> That was why I asked, as even this seems not to work. Its as if they have
>> just given up. Perhaps pack it in a tube like Toothpaste?
>>
> I avoid the promble of getting ketchup out of the bottle by using
> sachets like what you would find in a restaurant.
>
> They're a bit dearer by volume/weight but as they are sealed until
> required they keep for months (years) in the fridge. Unlike a bottle
> that sort of goes off a few months after opening.
>
> link to the online river: (mind the split line)
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0052ACVKA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>

I absolutely HATE such sachets. How do you get the product out without
getting it all over your fingers? What do you do with the empty sachet?
(I am asking in a restaurant environment.)

I did try to design something that would snip a corner off a sachet,
squeeze it, then distribute the empty to somewhere safe. A bit of a
cross twixt a clothes peg and nail clippers. But even that seemed too
complex.

I've now got to the point where, if I walk into a restaurant or pub and
see sachets on the tables, I walk straight back out again.

Give me proper bockles every time!

Tone

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 14:53:41 +0000
Hymermut <tone@email.com> wrote:

> I've now got to the point where, if I walk into a restaurant or pub and
> see sachets on the tables, I walk straight back out again.
>
> Give me proper bockles every time!

Before sachets most places had big plastic tomatoes so that they
could ohl purnc ketchup by the galleon.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Hymermut wrote:

> On 19/03/2024 10:21, nev young wrote:
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0052ACVKA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> I absolutely HATE such sachets. How do you get the product out without
> getting it all over your fingers? What do you do with the empty sachet?
> (I am asking in a restaurant environment.)
>
> I did try to design something that would snip a corner off a sachet,
> squeeze it, then distribute the empty to somewhere safe. A bit of a
> cross twixt a clothes peg and nail clippers. But even that seemed too
> complex.
>
> I've now got to the point where, if I walk into a restaurant or pub and
> see sachets on the tables, I walk straight back out again.
>
> Give me proper bockles every time!
>
> Tone

+1
Even 'Spoons have reverted to those plastic bottles that stand on
their lids but that maybe down to cost. Many folk would take twice as
many sachets as they required and leave the rest to be cleared.
--
Bri.
(W11 Desktop)

Thomas Prufer said:
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 15:04:52 +0000, "Nicholas D. Richards"
>>In article <l5r1f8FlhrpU1@mid.individual.net>, Bernard Peek
>
>>>As we are getting a bit techie I have to add that ketchup is
>>>thixotropic, like non-drip paint. If you agitate it the viscosity
>>>drops. Like some other non-newtonian liquids it's subject to
>>>syneresis, where the liquid component seeps out of the gel structure.
>>
>>Like gravy when you put the left over in the fridge? I bet there is an
>>E number that manufacturers put into pre-made micro-wave meals that
>>stop that happening.
>
> Xanthan is one... a quick search through "Texture -- A hydrocolloid
> recipe collection" yields
>
> "Tips and tricks - Add xanthan to reduce syneresis (water drainage),
> even in cold preparations - Xanthan is shear thinning: liquids are
> viscous when at rest, but become more fluid when stirred or sprayed.
> - The high at-rest viscosity gives excellent cling properties, for
> instance in tempura batters. - Stabilizes emulsions. - To keep water
> from leaking out of vegetable purées, add a touch of xanthan gum -
> Often used to keep particles suspended (e.g. herbs, spices etc.) -
> Xanthan reduces starch retrogradation in bread and baked products. -
> In ice cream xanthan (~0.2%) prevents ice crystal formation during
> thawing cycles - Xanthan can help stabilize whipped cream and mousses
> - Xanthan added to gluten free products prevents crumbling and binds
> the product. For best effects use with guar gum in a 2:1 ratio
> (x:g)."
>
> That should let you get back to sleep, when you wake up at night
> worrying about starch retrogradation or unstable emulsions and
> mousses.

Or keep you awake thinking "I've never seen a xanth. Or is it a place ?"

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 17:00:07 -0000 (UTC)
Richard Robinson <richard@qualmograph.org.uk> wrote:

> Or keep you awake thinking "I've never seen a xanth. Or is it a place ?"

It is indeed a (fictional) place created by Piers Anthony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanth.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 19-Mar-24 15:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 14:53:41 +0000
> Hymermut <tone@email.com> wrote:
>
>> I've now got to the point where, if I walk into a restaurant or pub and
>> see sachets on the tables, I walk straight back out again.
>>
>> Give me proper bockles every time!
>
> Before sachets most places had big plastic tomatoes so that they
> could ohl purnc ketchup by the galleon.

And many of them didn't buy ketchup, they just topped up the plastic
tomatoes with vinegar. After a while, they never needed any further
attention.

--
Sam Plusnet

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in
news:20240319173931.5947c21f172786b77a6316cd@eircom.net:

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 17:00:07 -0000 (UTC)
> Richard Robinson <richard@qualmograph.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Or keep you awake thinking "I've never seen a xanth. Or is it a place ?"
>
> It is indeed a (fictional) place created by Piers Anthony
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanth.
Oh yes, I unforget that series. Very good to start with then later books
became increasingly creepy in a qvegl byq zna sort of way.

--
Peter
-----

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 17:00:07 -0000 (UTC), Richard Robinson
<richard@qualmograph.org.uk> wrote:

>Thomas Prufer said:
>> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 15:04:52 +0000, "Nicholas D. Richards"
>>>In article <l5r1f8FlhrpU1@mid.individual.net>, Bernard Peek
>>
>>>>As we are getting a bit techie I have to add that ketchup is
>>>>thixotropic, like non-drip paint. If you agitate it the viscosity
>>>>drops. Like some other non-newtonian liquids it's subject to
>>>>syneresis, where the liquid component seeps out of the gel structure.
>>>
>>>Like gravy when you put the left over in the fridge? I bet there is an
>>>E number that manufacturers put into pre-made micro-wave meals that
>>>stop that happening.
>>
>> Xanthan is one... a quick search through "Texture -- A hydrocolloid
>> recipe collection" yields
>>
>> "Tips and tricks - Add xanthan to reduce syneresis (water drainage),
>> even in cold preparations - Xanthan is shear thinning: liquids are
>> viscous when at rest, but become more fluid when stirred or sprayed.
>> - The high at-rest viscosity gives excellent cling properties, for
>> instance in tempura batters. - Stabilizes emulsions. - To keep water
>> from leaking out of vegetable purées, add a touch of xanthan gum -
>> Often used to keep particles suspended (e.g. herbs, spices etc.) -
>> Xanthan reduces starch retrogradation in bread and baked products. -
>> In ice cream xanthan (~0.2%) prevents ice crystal formation during
>> thawing cycles - Xanthan can help stabilize whipped cream and mousses
>> - Xanthan added to gluten free products prevents crumbling and binds
>> the product. For best effects use with guar gum in a 2:1 ratio
>> (x:g)."
>>
>> That should let you get back to sleep, when you wake up at night
>> worrying about starch retrogradation or unstable emulsions and
>> mousses.
>
>Or keep you awake thinking "I've never seen a xanth. Or is it a place ?"

In Xanthan did Kubla Khan/ A stately pleasure-dome decree... ?

Thomas Prufer

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 21:44:05 -0000 (UTC)
Peter <myshed@prune.org.uk> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in
> news:20240319173931.5947c21f172786b77a6316cd@eircom.net:
>
> > On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 17:00:07 -0000 (UTC)
> > Richard Robinson <richard@qualmograph.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Or keep you awake thinking "I've never seen a xanth. Or is it a
> >> place ?"
> >
> > It is indeed a (fictional) place created by Piers Anthony
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanth.
>
> Oh yes, I unforget that series. Very good to start with then later books
> became increasingly creepy in a qvegl byq zna sort of way.

Ah I think I gave up on it before that twist came in, apparently
there are now 47 books in the series and the publisher keeps wanting more.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope