The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT kill
ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start complaining
and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.
Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
for personal recommendations here.

--
Jim the Geordie

On 19/10/2022 10:32, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>
> The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT kill
> ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start complaining
> and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.
> Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
> weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
> water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
> for personal recommendations here.

The first thing to say is that the use of any chemical to kill weeds is
illegal under pesticides law, unless it is approved for that use. Of
course, if you were using something to clean the paving slabs and it
happened to spill over the weeds, well, that's just accidental.

The best herbicide is still glyphosate, but at this time of the year
when the temperature is falling it is going to take longer to have an
effect. It's still worth trying, though, and you have to be patient. You
can buy it mixed with other chemicals, but I'm not convinced they do
anything except add to the price of a bottle. The weedkillers with a
quick "knock down" really don't kill the plant unless it's an annual.
Perennial weeds will regrow from the root. Weedol "Fast Acting" is
acetic acid barely stronger than vinegar.

I would recommend trying a glyphosate-based weedkiller now (and repeated
in a couple of weeks if it's still not cold), and applied again next
spring when the weeds come into grow.

--

Jeff

On 19/10/2022 10:32, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>
> The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT kill
> ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start complaining
> and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.
> Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
> weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
> water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
> for personal recommendations here.
>
1/. Pressure washer. It simply shreds them
2/. Glyphosate. Yes, it is still available.
3/. Household bleach. It turns into sodium chlorate if boiled

--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

On 19/10/2022 10:32, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>
> The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT kill
> ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start complaining
> and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.

It is a "green" garden product - it isn't meant to actually work.
It is mostly acetic acid and a bit stronger than vinegar.

https://www.woodies.ie/media/documents/safety_data_sheet/1101780-MSDS.pdf

A bit more patience and glyphosate would do a far better job!
(takes about a fortnight to have visible effect on weeds)

> Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
> weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
> water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
> for personal recommendations here.

DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
Using home brews of pesticides or herbicides is also illegal.

No kitchen sink recipes are even remotely up to the job. For paving the
original formulation of Pathclear using simazine was about as good as it
gets but the product has been long since withdrawn due to misusing it.

It is now too late in the season to get much effect with *any*
weedkiller - plants are mostly in the process of shutting down.

Fundamental problem is you don't want a quick kill of the top growth -
you want a slow translocating weedkiller that does in the roots as well.

Otherwise you will be forever buying quick acting weedkiller - which is
probably the vendors intention. Overpriced impure water for sale.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.

Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
organic chemistry.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
>
>Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
>organic chemistry.

OK, so the reaction is
4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)

But don't you get quite a lot of chlorine coming off as well?

NaCl + NaOCl + H2O <-> Cl2^ + 2NaOH

I.E. the reverse of the reaction when bleach is made, because it's a
reversible reaction (hence the <-> ) done by passing chlorine into
caustic soda solution. Heat up the bleach and at least some of it will
revert back to chlorine and caustic soda.

I wouldn't fancy boiling bleach in the kitchen. As they shouted in the
trenches of WW1 'GAS GAS GAS' !

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

On 19/10/2022 20:00, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
>>
>> Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
>> organic chemistry.
>
> OK, so the reaction is
> 4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)
>
> But don't you get quite a lot of chlorine coming off as well?
>
> NaCl + NaOCl + H2O <-> Cl2^ + 2NaOH
>
> I.E. the reverse of the reaction when bleach is made, because it's a
> reversible reaction (hence the <-> ) done by passing chlorine into
> caustic soda solution. Heat up the bleach and at least some of it will
> revert back to chlorine and caustic soda.
>
> I wouldn't fancy boiling bleach in the kitchen. As they shouted in the
> trenches of WW1 'GAS GAS GAS' !
>
No, its easy enough to do it outside.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

On 19/10/2022 20:00, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
>>
>> Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
>> organic chemistry.
>
> OK, so the reaction is
> 4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)

That's sodium perchlorate! The actual reaction is:
3NaOCl -> 2NaCl + NaClO3

--

Jeff

On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 21:20:32 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>On 19/10/2022 20:00, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
>>>
>>> Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
>>> organic chemistry.
>>
>> OK, so the reaction is
>> 4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)
>
>That's sodium perchlorate! The actual reaction is:
>3NaOCl -> 2NaCl + NaClO3

Oops! My chemistry's getting a bit rusty! Thanks for the correction.

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

On 19/10/2022 21:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 19/10/2022 20:00, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry
>>>> professionals.
>>>
>>> Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
>>> organic chemistry.
>>
>> OK, so the reaction is
>> 4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)
>
> That's sodium perchlorate! The actual reaction is:
> 3NaOCl  -> 2NaCl + NaClO3
>
However those who have done it do say that there is some chlorine
released, so there are some other reactions going on
--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

In article <tipn44$42ja$1@dont-email.me>, tnp@invalid.invalid says...
>
> On 19/10/2022 21:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
> > On 19/10/2022 20:00, Chris Hogg wrote:
> >> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> >> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
> >>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry
> >>>> professionals.
> >>>
> >>> Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
> >>> organic chemistry.
> >>
> >> OK, so the reaction is
> >> 4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)
> >
> > That's sodium perchlorate! The actual reaction is:
> > 3NaOCl  -> 2NaCl + NaClO3
> >
> However those who have done it do say that there is some chlorine
> released, so there are some other reactions going on

OK guys ENOUGH!
Can I just use diluted Domestos?Parazone etc. If so, what dilution?

--
Jim the Geordie

On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:45:37 +0100, Jim the Geordie
<jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:
>Can I just use diluted Domestos?Parazone etc. If so, what dilution?

If it's just weeds between paving slabs, you could just sprinkle table
salt into the cracks - might work. But be careful not to let it run
off into the flowerbeds etc.

--
Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall, very mild, sheltered
from the West, but open to the North and East.

On 19/10/2022 21:31, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 21:20:32 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 19/10/2022 20:00, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 18:27:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>>>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
>>>>
>>>> Boiling up bleach to make sodium chlorate is neither dangerous nor
>>>> organic chemistry.
>>>
>>> OK, so the reaction is
>>> 4NaClO (sodium hypochlorite) > 3NaCl + NaClO4 (sodium chlorate)
>>
>> That's sodium perchlorate! The actual reaction is:
>> 3NaOCl -> 2NaCl + NaClO3
>
> Oops! My chemistry's getting a bit rusty! Thanks for the correction.

In practice you might actually be right though. There will a lot of side
reactions going on so you will get a mixture of stuff and a whiff of
chlorine gas so do it outdoors if you value your lungs.

Perchlorates are in general more stable and less soluble than chlorates
so you will end up with a mixture of both as the water boils off with
the impure perchlorate coming out of solution first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate#Chemical_properties

That appears to be what happens on Mars too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate#On_Mars

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 20/10/2022 06:57, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:45:37 +0100, Jim the Geordie
> <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:
>> Can I just use diluted Domestos?Parazone etc. If so, what dilution?
>
> If it's just weeds between paving slabs, you could just sprinkle table
> salt into the cracks - might work. But be careful not to let it run
> off into the flowerbeds etc.

You don't have to be that careful with common salt. Grass grows quite
happily within a couple of inches of our rock salt piles on the hill.

UK is a wet country so salting the Earth has a limited effect (and I
suspect that in ancient times it was too expensive to do anyway).
>

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 19/10/2022 10:32, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>
>> The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT kill
>> ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start complaining
>> and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.
>
> It is a "green" garden product - it isn't meant to actually work.
> It is mostly acetic acid and a bit stronger than vinegar.
>
> https://www.woodies.ie/media/documents/safety_data_sheet/1101780-MSDS.pdf
>
> A bit more patience and glyphosate would do a far better job!
> (takes about a fortnight to have visible effect on weeds)
>
>> Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
>> weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
>> water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
>> for personal recommendations here.
>
> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry professionals.
> Using home brews of pesticides or herbicides is also illegal.
>
> No kitchen sink recipes are even remotely up to the job. For paving the
> original formulation of Pathclear using simazine was about as good as it
> gets but the product has been long since withdrawn due to misusing it.
>
> It is now too late in the season to get much effect with *any*
> weedkiller - plants are mostly in the process of shutting down.
>
> Fundamental problem is you don't want a quick kill of the top growth -
> you want a slow translocating weedkiller that does in the roots as well.
>
> Otherwise you will be forever buying quick acting weedkiller - which is
> probably the vendors intention. Overpriced impure water for sale.
>

I have been using my own make up of weed killer for years, consisting of
bleach, salt and or caustic soda, and I am still here!

On 20/10/2022 11:36, Rob H wrote:
> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 19/10/2022 10:32, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>>
>>> The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT kill
>>> ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start complaining
>>> and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.
>>
>> It is a "green" garden product - it isn't meant to actually work.
>> It is mostly acetic acid and a bit stronger than vinegar.
>>
>> https://www.woodies.ie/media/documents/safety_data_sheet/1101780-MSDS.pdf
>>
>> A bit more patience and glyphosate would do a far better job!
>> (takes about a fortnight to have visible effect on weeds)
>>
>>> Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
>>> weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
>>> water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
>>> for personal recommendations here.
>>
>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry
>> professionals. Using home brews of pesticides or herbicides is also
>> illegal.
>>
>> No kitchen sink recipes are even remotely up to the job. For paving
>> the original formulation of Pathclear using simazine was about as good
>> as it gets but the product has been long since withdrawn due to
>> misusing it.
>>
>> It is now too late in the season to get much effect with *any*
>> weedkiller - plants are mostly in the process of shutting down.
>>
>> Fundamental problem is you don't want a quick kill of the top growth -
>> you want a slow translocating weedkiller that does in the roots as well.
>>
>> Otherwise you will be forever buying quick acting weedkiller - which
>> is probably the vendors intention. Overpriced impure water for sale.
>>
>
> I have been using my own make up of weed killer for years, consisting of
> bleach, salt and or caustic soda, and I am still here!

That is a very ineffective and expensive weedkiller.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 20/10/2022 14:10, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 20/10/2022 11:36, Rob H wrote:
>> On 19/10/2022 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2022 10:32, Jim the Geordie wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The recently purchased Weedol - Fast acting - 1 hour simply dos NOT
>>>> kill
>>>> ANY weeds as far as I can see. It's too much hassle to start
>>>> complaining
>>>> and the supermarkets have cleared their gardening sections anyway.
>>>
>>> It is a "green" garden product - it isn't meant to actually work.
>>> It is mostly acetic acid and a bit stronger than vinegar.
>>>
>>> https://www.woodies.ie/media/documents/safety_data_sheet/1101780-MSDS.pdf
>>>
>>> A bit more patience and glyphosate would do a far better job!
>>> (takes about a fortnight to have visible effect on weeds)
>>>
>>>> Has any one got a solution (no pun intended) for a recipe for killing
>>>> weeds growing through uneven paving slabs short of lots of boiling
>>>> water. There are, I know many suggestions on the web, but I'm looking
>>>> for personal recommendations here.
>>>
>>> DIY weedkillers are a very bad idea. Things that really work involve
>>> dangerous organic chemistry that is best done by industry
>>> professionals. Using home brews of pesticides or herbicides is also
>>> illegal.
>>>
>>> No kitchen sink recipes are even remotely up to the job. For paving
>>> the original formulation of Pathclear using simazine was about as
>>> good as it gets but the product has been long since withdrawn due to
>>> misusing it.
>>>
>>> It is now too late in the season to get much effect with *any*
>>> weedkiller - plants are mostly in the process of shutting down.
>>>
>>> Fundamental problem is you don't want a quick kill of the top growth
>>> - you want a slow translocating weedkiller that does in the roots as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Otherwise you will be forever buying quick acting weedkiller - which
>>> is probably the vendors intention. Overpriced impure water for sale.
>>>
>>
>> I have been using my own make up of weed killer for years, consisting
>> of bleach, salt and or caustic soda, and I am still here!
>
> That is a very ineffective and expensive weedkiller.
>
>

It does the job for me tho', ineffective or not.