We have a catalpa in our garden. I pollarded it a few years ago - it
doesn't like the wind. From where it stands there is a clear run for the
west wind over several miles; it was suffering. It still suffers a bit.

It's a nice tree, but in the wrong place.

I spent yesterday cutting down a whitebeam. It was leaning over onto
next door fence, and I thought would cause damage today. It's no
surprise - it looked pretty sick last summer. I looked it up on the RHS

https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/17533/sorbus-aria/details

and it says inter alia "Growing conditions: Moist but well–drained,
Well–drained". We're on heavy clay (think Somme valley...) and there is
water in the gaps around the roots where it had moved.

It was a nice tree, but in the wrong place.

Andy

On 21/12/2023 14:21, Vir Campestris wrote:
> We have a catalpa in our garden. I pollarded it a few years ago - it
> doesn't like the wind. From where it stands there is a clear run for the
> west wind over several miles; it was suffering. It still suffers a bit.
>
> It's a nice tree, but in the wrong place.
>
> I spent yesterday cutting down a whitebeam. It was leaning over onto
> next door fence, and I thought would cause damage today. It's no
> surprise - it looked pretty sick last summer. I looked it up on the RHS
>
> https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/17533/sorbus-aria/details
>
> and it says inter alia "Growing conditions: Moist but well–drained,
> Well–drained". We're on heavy clay (think Somme valley...) and there is
> water in the gaps around the roots where it had moved.
>
> It was a nice tree, but in the wrong place.

The RHS description of the growing conditions of just about any plant
you care to mention starts with "Moist but well drained". It's BS*. Of
course, cacti won't survive in a pond, and water lilies won't like a
desert, but most plants will grow pretty well in a lot of the UK in
clay, even if it's not "well drained". In fact, if the ground is liable
to drying out, a heavy clay will be better than most soils, as it
retains moisture longer.

I've only killed one plant - a Carmichaelia (Chordospartium) stevensonii
- by putting it in a sump (which I had no idea was there). Perhaps your
sorbus was in a sump. To get that, the clay will usually have to be
level and at the lowest part of the garden, or where any collected water
cannot drain away.

*New houses have a garden with "builder's topsoil", which consists of
equal parts of rubble and subsoil, sometimes generously topped with a
few microns of real topsoil. Yet those houses often have fairly decent
gardens after a few years, even though there's nothing "moist but well
drained" about them.

--

Jeff

On 21/12/2023 14:21, Vir Campestris wrote:
> We have a catalpa in our garden. I pollarded it a few years ago - it
> doesn't like the wind. From where it stands there is a clear run for the
> west wind over several miles; it was suffering. It still suffers a bit.
>
> It's a nice tree, but in the wrong place.
>
> I spent yesterday cutting down a whitebeam. It was leaning over onto
> next door fence, and I thought would cause damage today. It's no
> surprise - it looked pretty sick last summer. I looked it up on the RHS
>
> https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/17533/sorbus-aria/details
>
> and it says inter alia "Growing conditions: Moist but well–drained,
> Well–drained". We're on heavy clay (think Somme valley...) and there is
> water in the gaps around the roots where it had moved.
>
> It was a nice tree, but in the wrong place.
>
> Andy

I've got a whitebeam in pretty soggy clay oil. Its doing great.
Beautiful tree

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 21/12/2023 15:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> The RHS description of the growing conditions of just about any plant
> you care to mention starts with "Moist but well drained". It's BS*. Of
> course, cacti won't survive in a pond, and water lilies won't like a
> desert, but most plants will grow pretty well in a lot of the UK in
> clay, even if it's not "well drained". In fact, if the ground is liable
> to drying out, a heavy clay will be better than most soils, as it
> retains moisture longer.
>
> I've only killed one plant - a Carmichaelia (Chordospartium) stevensonii
> - by putting it in a sump (which I had no idea was there). Perhaps your
> sorbus was in a sump. To get that, the clay will usually have to be
> level and at the lowest part of the garden, or where any collected water
> cannot drain away.
>

The sump is lower down the garden. Yesterday there was standing water on
the grass.

I did find this
<https://www.barcham.co.uk/guides-advice/how-to-choose-the-best-trees-for-wet-soils/>

which has a few suggestions (and they are fairly local)

Looking in their catalogue I found

https://www.barcham.co.uk/store/products/sorbus-aria-magnifica

which says "Well drained, Chalk/Alkaline, Will tolerate most soil
types". Mind, they also say that about the horse chestnut, and we've got
one of those too which is doing well - despite the leaf miners, and the
water all around it. As are our birches.

> *New houses have a garden with "builder's topsoil", which consists of
> equal parts of rubble and subsoil, sometimes generously topped with a
> few microns of real topsoil. Yet those houses often have fairly decent
> gardens after a few years, even though there's nothing "moist but well
> drained" about them.

Our first house was like that. Sandy soil in the area, but I think I had
the mixer in the garden. The soil was strongly alkaline, and I had to
dig it with a mattock. It did recover in the end.

Andy