In article <u8e1v7$23vq0$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Brian Gregory" <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote in
> message news:kgtj6bFafbjU2@mid.individual.net...
> > On 07/07/2023 16:36, David Woolley wrote:
> >> On 07/07/2023 15:42, Scott wrote:
> >>> It has probably never been upgraded for HD
> >>
> >> There is nothing intrinsically about HD that requires changes in the
> >> aerial, although it might be on channels outside the design range of
> >> the aerial, or signal levels may be weaker.
> >>
> >> If you are daisy chaining through the Humax, there will be some
> >> degradation in signal to noise ratio, compared with what the Humax has
> >> to work with, but basically it sounds like your signal strength is
> >> marginal.
> >
> > Some communal systems have filters intended to only let through the
> > channels broadcast by the mast the aerial is pointed at.

> Hopefully those filters are updated if a transmitter changes the UHF
> channels it uses ;-)

> Do any communal aerial systems remodulate a mux onto a different UHF
> channel? For example to group all the muxes into a tight block that can
> be covered with a single wider band-pass filter rather than a series of
> single-mux filters. I remember in the days of Bracknell Cable TV
> (analogue!) they moved all the broadcast signals from Crystal Palace
> (BBC, ITV Thames etc) and Hannington (ITV Meridian) onto unused UHF
> channels, presumably so any leakage from the cable wouldn't affect
> people with their own aerial.

or, more likely, the other way round,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Also, it would, if its communal need to be ascertained if others get the
same issues and maybe swapping his feed with another to see if his works and
the others does not. That would point the finger at the output of the
distribution system on his channel.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Robin" <rbw@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:c85b443e-2421-ccb4-d16d-7f73cf25fa3b@outlook.com...
> On 07/07/2023 15:42, Scott wrote:
>> My friend has a Panasonic TV fed via a Humax PVR. The picture quality
>> is highly variable ranging from 50% to 100% and sometimes shutting
>> down altogether as inadequate signal. The problem occurs both with
>> the TV operating direct or operating via the Humax box, though the
>> Humax is more reliable. For test purposes this is HD channel 40. I
>> have checked that pass-through for the Humax is enabled. I use the
>> same transmitter (Blackhill) with no problems whatsoever (constant
>> 100% quality).
>>
>> My thinking is that there must be something wrong with the aerial. I
>> replaced the (indoor) aerial cables but the problem persists. The
>> aerial is in the loft, and is communal. It has probably never been
>> upgraded for HD but it has worked up to now. It is difficult to see
>> how it could be so variable. I have suggested getting someone into
>> the loft to see if the aerial has been dislodged or affected by water
>> ingress. My friend is reluctant to do this because it is common or
>> mutual.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> It may well just be me but I was left unsure if you have by-passed the
> Humax totally by plugging the aerial lead into the TV direct.
>
> --
> Robin
> reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
>

Yes that was what I was finding until I renewed the cheapo coax originally
fitted.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"wrightsaerials@aol.com" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:10acd2c9-3cae-448a-847e-bd3e3b9593c0n@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, 7 July 2023 at 17:04:23 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 16:36:02 +0100, David Woolley
>> <da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 07/07/2023 15:42, Scott wrote:
>> >> It has probably never been
>> >> upgraded for HD
>> >
>> >There is nothing intrinsically about HD that requires changes in the
>> >aerial, although it might be on channels outside the design range of the
>> >aerial, or signal levels may be weaker.
>> >
>> >If you are daisy chaining through the Humax, there will be some
>> >degradation in signal to noise ratio, compared with what the Humax has
>> >to work with, but basically it sounds like your signal strength is
>> >marginal.
>> It seems to be quite high (I cannot remember the figure) and it is the
>> quality that fluctuates. The fluctuation puzzles me especially with
>> an indoor (loft) aerial.
> No, you'd expect it. Remember that digital TV needs a tiny change in
> signal level to radically affect reception quality, if the signal levels
> are marginal.
> Bill

No indeed, back in the old analogue days, I had a ten foot pole witha 6
element wideband array on it pointed at the transmitter for tv in my shed.
One day, loads of German tv channels appeared. Its amazing how much
atmospheric conditions can affect the signals.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"wrightsaerials@aol.com" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:db032f23-ffb5-4150-b0ab-44949bb75a89n@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, 7 July 2023 at 22:15:13 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
>
>> Actually indoor aerials are remarkably good for digital. I have a
>> communal system, and, a little while ago when it lost power I tried
>> connecting a simple, unamplified, log-periodic antenna and it was good
>> enough to use, despite the fact that I live on the ground floor not very
>> near the transmitter. With analogue I expect it would have been snowy at
>> least.
>
> You shouldn't really generalise from one specific incident.
> Bill

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 11:25:46 UTC+1, NY wrote:

> Do any communal aerial systems remodulate a mux onto a different UHF
> channel? For example to group all the muxes into a tight block that can be
> covered with a single wider band-pass filter rather than a series of
> single-mux filters.

It isn't usually cost-effective, or even necessary. Normally the off-air muxes are carried as received, with in-house muxes fitted around them. The latter carry cctv etc.
Bill

On 10/07/2023 03:30, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 11:25:46 UTC+1, NY wrote:
>
>> Do any communal aerial systems remodulate a mux onto a different UHF
>> channel? For example to group all the muxes into a tight block that can be
>> covered with a single wider band-pass filter rather than a series of
>> single-mux filters.
>
> It isn't usually cost-effective, or even necessary. Normally the off-air muxes are carried as received, with in-house muxes fitted around them. The latter carry cctv etc.
> Bill

I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from two
different transmitters.

I used a Triax TMB 2000 to shift two of them onto two different spare
frequencies.... before then adding in 11 CCTV channels.....

On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 20:23:04 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
>It would rule out the problem being with the Humax.

I did that at the weekend and the problem continued. I am mystified
for a number of reasons:

1. The problem occurs with both the tuner in the TV and the tuner in
the Humax box, suggesting an input problem rather than two faulty
tuners.
2. I have tried different aerial leads (from the wall).
3. Loft aerial is so should not be affected by wind or rain.
4. The problem started during the heatwave so this rules out rain.
5. Blackhill transmitter is original aerial group B. I assume the
aerial is B (or wideband). Channel 40 is towards the centre of the
range.
6. Faulty LED seems unlikely as the problem occurred during the day.
7. I cannot see what kind of fault would allow the TV to work for
long periods (30 minutes) without difficulty then 'crash out' for
short periods. Could it be a thermostat or something?
8. The TV is reporting high signal strength (about 90% at times) and
fluctuating quality. My TV (also Blackhill) shows 69% quality and
solid 100% quality). The picture has never broken up other than on
the former BBC Four multiplex (which was lower powered).
9. I assume there is a distribution amplifier as it is a communal
aerial. Could its electrical connection be faulty?
10. The broadband is subject to interruptions but I cannot see what
circumstances could affect both broadband and Freeview.
11. I think if it were 5G interference it would happen almost
continuously. Vodafone is not using 5G. I don't know about the
others. I could try a 5G filter but this would reduce the signal
strength when it seem clear 5G is not the issue.

I have advised my friend to call in an aerial installer to
investigate. Ideally, this should be arranged by the Factors
(managing agents) as it is a communal aerial. I have also advised her
to speak to neighbours, but most of them seem to be on satellite.

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 10:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:

> I have advised my friend to call in an aerial installer to
> investigate. Ideally, this should be arranged by the Factors
> (managing agents) as it is a communal aerial. I have also advised her
> to speak to neighbours, but most of them seem to be on satellite.

Loft reception can behave very oddly. You can't rule anything out. However, if it's a communal system with an amp it could be that the PSU in the amp is outputing power with a ripple superimposed. This can result in normal-looking signal levels but poor decoding. If the ripple isn't too pronounced the effect of reception can come and go. Muxes that already have poor BER due to inadequacies of the aerial are likely to be most affected.

Bill

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 07:03:40 -0700 (PDT), "wrightsaerials@aol.com"
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

>On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 10:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>
>> I have advised my friend to call in an aerial installer to
>> investigate. Ideally, this should be arranged by the Factors
>> (managing agents) as it is a communal aerial. I have also advised her
>> to speak to neighbours, but most of them seem to be on satellite.
>
>Loft reception can behave very oddly. You can't rule anything out. However, if it's a communal system with an amp it could be that the PSU in the amp is outputing power with a ripple superimposed. This can result in normal-looking signal levels but poor decoding. If the ripple isn't too pronounced the effect of reception can come and go. Muxes that already have poor BER due to inadequacies of the aerial are likely to be most affected.
>
Thanks. This reaffirms my (repeated) advice that she should get an
aerial installer to look at the set-up in the loft. I don't suppose
you fancy a wee job in East Renfrewshire :-)

On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 15:32:15 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 07:03:40 -0700 (PDT), "wrights...@aol.com"
> <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 10:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> >
> >> I have advised my friend to call in an aerial installer to
> >> investigate. Ideally, this should be arranged by the Factors
> >> (managing agents) as it is a communal aerial. I have also advised her
> >> to speak to neighbours, but most of them seem to be on satellite.
> >
> >Loft reception can behave very oddly. You can't rule anything out. However, if it's a communal system with an amp it could be that the PSU in the amp is outputing power with a ripple superimposed. This can result in normal-looking signal levels but poor decoding. If the ripple isn't too pronounced the effect of reception can come and go. Muxes that already have poor BER due to inadequacies of the aerial are likely to be most affected.
> >
> Thanks. This reaffirms my (repeated) advice that she should get an
> aerial installer to look at the set-up in the loft. I don't suppose
> you fancy a wee job in East Renfrewshire :-)
Certainly. The call-out would be £1 per mile plus one overnight stay plus £70 plus VAT. About £750.
Bill

On 12/07/2023 23:02, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 15:32:15 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 07:03:40 -0700 (PDT), "wrights...@aol.com"
>> <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 10:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have advised my friend to call in an aerial installer to
>>>> investigate. Ideally, this should be arranged by the Factors
>>>> (managing agents) as it is a communal aerial. I have also advised her
>>>> to speak to neighbours, but most of them seem to be on satellite.
>>>
>>> Loft reception can behave very oddly. You can't rule anything out. However, if it's a communal system with an amp it could be that the PSU in the amp is outputing power with a ripple superimposed. This can result in normal-looking signal levels but poor decoding. If the ripple isn't too pronounced the effect of reception can come and go. Muxes that already have poor BER due to inadequacies of the aerial are likely to be most affected.
>>>
>> Thanks. This reaffirms my (repeated) advice that she should get an
>> aerial installer to look at the set-up in the loft. I don't suppose
>> you fancy a wee job in East Renfrewshire :-)
> Certainly. The call-out would be £1 per mile plus one overnight stay plus £70 plus VAT. About £750.
> Bill

ISTR you have a motorhome? No need for a B&B or hotel :-D

SH wrote:

> wrightsaerials wrote:
>
>> The call-out would be £1 per mile plus one overnight stay
>> plus £70 plus VAT. About £750.
>
> ISTR you have a motorhome? No need for a B&B or hotel :-D

Ah, but then it's £2 per mile.

On 13/07/2023 12:19, Andy Burns wrote:
> SH wrote:
>
>> wrightsaerials wrote:
>>
>>> The call-out would be £1 per mile plus one overnight stay plus £70
>>> plus VAT. About £750.
>>
>> ISTR you have a motorhome? No need for a B&B or hotel :-D
>
> Ah, but then it's £2 per mile.

And £5 for midge repellent!

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Thursday, 13 July 2023 at 12:16:04 UTC+1, SH wrote:
> On 12/07/2023 23:02, wrights...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 11 July 2023 at 15:32:15 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 07:03:40 -0700 (PDT), "wrights...@aol.com"
> >> <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 10:06:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I have advised my friend to call in an aerial installer to
> >>>> investigate. Ideally, this should be arranged by the Factors
> >>>> (managing agents) as it is a communal aerial. I have also advised her
> >>>> to speak to neighbours, but most of them seem to be on satellite.
> >>>
> >>> Loft reception can behave very oddly. You can't rule anything out. However, if it's a communal system with an amp it could be that the PSU in the amp is outputing power with a ripple superimposed. This can result in normal-looking signal levels but poor decoding. If the ripple isn't too pronounced the effect of reception can come and go. Muxes that already have poor BER due to inadequacies of the aerial are likely to be most affected.
> >>>
> >> Thanks. This reaffirms my (repeated) advice that she should get an
> >> aerial installer to look at the set-up in the loft. I don't suppose
> >> you fancy a wee job in East Renfrewshire :-)
> > Certainly. The call-out would be £1 per mile plus one overnight stay plus £70 plus VAT. About £750.
> > Bill
> ISTR you have a motorhome? No need for a B&B or hotel :-D
Can't work from the m/home!
Bill

On 13/07/2023 12:19, Andy Burns wrote:
> SH wrote:
>
>> wrightsaerials wrote:
>>
>>> The call-out would be £1 per mile plus one overnight stay plus £70
>>> plus VAT. About £750.
>>
>> ISTR you have a motorhome? No need for a B&B or hotel :-D
>
> Ah, but then it's £2 per mile.

plus an extra £500 to add business use to the the insurance?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 10/07/2023 08:25, SH wrote:
> I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from two
> different transmitters.

Why bother? They'd be carrying exactly the same stuff.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 13/07/2023 23:04, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 10/07/2023 08:25, SH wrote:
>> I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from two
>> different transmitters.
>
> Why bother? They'd be carrying exactly the same stuff.
>

redundancy if one transmitter has a fire like Oxford or Bilsdale!

and also have redundancy too via Freeset as all TVs are freesat &
Freeview :-)

On 14/07/2023 08:47, SH wrote:
> On 13/07/2023 23:04, Brian Gregory wrote:
>> On 10/07/2023 08:25, SH wrote:
>>> I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from two
>>> different transmitters.
>>
>> Why bother? They'd be carrying exactly the same stuff.
>>
>
>
> redundancy if one transmitter has a fire like Oxford or Bilsdale!
>
> and also have redundancy too via Freeset as all TVs are freesat &
> Freeview :-)

I'd be more inclined to provide resilience for your home, should the
gas, lekky, or water supplies fail, than worrying about the bloody TV !

On 14/07/2023 09:10, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 08:47, SH wrote:
>> On 13/07/2023 23:04, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>> On 10/07/2023 08:25, SH wrote:
>>>> I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from two
>>>> different transmitters.
>>>
>>> Why bother? They'd be carrying exactly the same stuff.
>>>
>>
>>
>> redundancy if one transmitter has a fire like Oxford or Bilsdale!
>>
>> and also have redundancy too via Freeset as all TVs are freesat &
>> Freeview :-)
>
> I'd be more inclined to provide resilience for your home, should the
> gas, lekky, or water supplies fail, than worrying about the bloody TV !

already done that!

rain water harvesting....

woodburners and 6 tonnes of logs.

12 volt leisure battery bank to power the ONT, Router, Wifi APs, DNS
server, VPN server and UNC.

car chargers for smartphones, tablets laptops from said leisure battery
bank.

4g router and access to sims from 3, Voda, EE and 02. (should fibre go
down.)

generator for combi boiler

LPG cylinders in garage and caraan/camping cooker

I can't actually hear or lip-read the radio so thats why I need to
ensure I can access any important news broadcast on TV as well as access
any websites (assuming fibre broadband is still lit.

S.

On 14/07/2023 09:41, SH wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 09:10, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 08:47, SH wrote:
>>> On 13/07/2023 23:04, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>> On 10/07/2023 08:25, SH wrote:
>>>>> I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from
>>>>> two different transmitters.
>>>>
>>>> Why bother? They'd be carrying exactly the same stuff.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> redundancy if one transmitter has a fire like Oxford or Bilsdale!
>>>
>>> and also have redundancy too via Freeset as all TVs are freesat &
>>> Freeview :-)
>>
>> I'd be more inclined to provide resilience for your home, should the
>> gas, lekky, or water supplies fail, than worrying about the bloody TV !
>
>
> already done that!
>
> rain water harvesting....
>
> woodburners and 6 tonnes of logs.
>
> 12 volt leisure battery bank to power the ONT, Router, Wifi APs, DNS
> server, VPN server and UNC.
>
> car chargers for smartphones, tablets laptops from said leisure
> battery bank.
>
> 4g router and access to sims from 3, Voda, EE and 02. (should fibre go
> down.)
>
> generator for combi boiler
>
> LPG cylinders in garage and caraan/camping cooker
>
> I can't actually hear or lip-read the radio so thats why I need to
> ensure I can access any important news broadcast on TV as well as
> access any websites (assuming fibre broadband is still lit.
>
> S.
Well, when that big Solar Flare hits, we'll all come round to your
place....

On 14/07/2023 09:50, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 14/07/2023 09:41, SH wrote:
>> On 14/07/2023 09:10, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 14/07/2023 08:47, SH wrote:
>>>> On 13/07/2023 23:04, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>>> On 10/07/2023 08:25, SH wrote:
>>>>>> I was able to get Com 7 and Com 8 (before they closed down) from
>>>>>> two different transmitters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why bother? They'd be carrying exactly the same stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> redundancy if one transmitter has a fire like Oxford or Bilsdale!
>>>>
>>>> and also have redundancy too via Freeset as all TVs are freesat &
>>>> Freeview :-)
>>>
>>> I'd be more inclined to provide resilience for your home, should the
>>> gas, lekky, or water supplies fail, than worrying about the bloody TV !
>>
>>
>> already done that!
>>
>> rain water harvesting....
>>
>> woodburners and 6 tonnes of logs.
>>
>> 12 volt leisure battery bank to power the ONT, Router, Wifi APs, DNS
>> server, VPN server and UNC.
>>
>> car chargers for smartphones, tablets laptops from said leisure
>> battery bank.
>>
>> 4g router and access to sims from 3, Voda, EE and 02. (should fibre go
>> down.)
>>
>> generator for combi boiler
>>
>> LPG cylinders in garage and caraan/camping cooker
>>
>> I can't actually hear or lip-read the radio so thats why I need to
>> ensure I can access any important news broadcast on TV as well as
>> access any websites (assuming fibre broadband is still lit.
>>
>> S.
> Well, when that big Solar Flare hits, we'll all come round to your
> place....

Ha ha ha... Nice try! But No dice as you're not getting your lips on my
artisan beer cellar! :-)

Oooh matron

On 09/07/2023 13:17, Brian Gaff wrote:
> No indeed, back in the old analogue days, I had a ten foot pole witha 6
> element wideband array on it pointed at the transmitter for tv in my shed.
> One day, loads of German tv channels appeared. Its amazing how much
> atmospheric conditions can affect the signals.

There was one amazing summer, not sure which year, perhaps 1978 or maybe
1976, when that happened all the time. Dutch TV stations, Some inverted
+ve modulated video from France(?) that didn't sync reliably but did
sort of sync, and a few times the Hannington relay station was relaying,
if I remember correctly, German TV station ZDF instead of Rowridge ITV.
I think it was instead of ITV but not sure. I loved it.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

I'm pretty sure that was also the year I heard Radio Luxembourg's VHF/FM
service direct from Luxembourg on a crummy hand held transistor radio.
And it wasn't a good radio at all, rather wide and not that sensitive
due to, well, germanium transistors aren't great at VHF.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 10/08/2023 23:22, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 09/07/2023 13:17, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> No indeed, back in the old analogue days, I had a ten foot pole witha 6
>> element wideband array on it pointed  at the transmitter for tv in my
>> shed.
>> One day, loads of German tv channels appeared. Its amazing how much
>> atmospheric conditions can affect the signals.
>
> There was one amazing summer, not sure which year, perhaps 1978 or maybe
> 1976, when that happened all the time. Dutch TV stations, Some inverted
> +ve modulated video from France(?) that didn't sync reliably but did
> sort of sync, and a few times the Hannington relay station was relaying,
> if I remember correctly, German TV station ZDF instead of Rowridge ITV.
> I think it was instead of ITV but not sure. I loved it.

Early 00s and I was living in a flat in Norwich City Centre.

We had a communal system, rooftop aerial on top of 3 storey block.
Highest thing for several miles except the hospital tower blocks to the
west.

The Dutch tv channels were so easily received that I tuned them in on
positions 6-9 on my telly! Seemed to be a lot of sport, particularly
football.

James