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aus+uk / uk.transport.london / Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

SubjectAuthor
* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansTheo
 +- The Victoria Line, heat and fansMuttley
 `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
  `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansTheo
   `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansMuttley
    +- The Victoria Line, heat and fansSam Wilson
    `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
     `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
      `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansSam Wilson
       `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        +- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRoland Perry
        +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
        |+* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        ||+- The Victoria Line, heat and fansTweed
        ||`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
        || `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        ||  `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
        ||   `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        ||    `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
        |`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRoland Perry
        | `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
        |  `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |   +- The Victoria Line, heat and fansTweed
        |   `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
        |    `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |     `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRoland Perry
        |      `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |       +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansTweed
        |       |+- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |       |`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRoland Perry
        |       | `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |       |  `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |       `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRoland Perry
        |        `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
        |         `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansColinR
        |          `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansDave Jackson
        `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
         `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansTweed
          |+* The Victoria Line, heat and fansSam Wilson
          ||`- The Victoria Line, heat and fansTweed
          |`- The Victoria Line, heat and fansMuttley
          +- The Victoria Line, heat and fansTheo
          +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansMuttley
          |`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansGraeme Wall
          | +- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          | `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
          |  +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansGraeme Wall
          |  |`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansMark Goodge
          |  | `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
          |  +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          |  |`- The Victoria Line, heat and fansGraeme Wall
          |  `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
          |   +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansCharles Ellson
          |   |`- The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
          |   `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansKen
          |    `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          |     +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansTweed
          |     |`* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          |     | +* The Victoria Line, heat and fansSam Wilson
          |     | |+- The Victoria Line, heat and fansnib
          |     | |`- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          |     | `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansAnna Noyd-Dryver
          |     |  `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          |     |   `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRecliner
          |     `* The Victoria Line, heat and fansTheo
          |      `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansRoland Perry
          `- The Victoria Line, heat and fansGraeme Wall

Pages:123
Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

<mq8dkhdo56tc8n5j3j1vk9bsn5kjg88q15@4ax.com>

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https://news.novabbs.org/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=4951&group=uk.transport.london#4951

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From: usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:36:28 +0100
Message-ID: <mq8dkhdo56tc8n5j3j1vk9bsn5kjg88q15@4ax.com>
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 by: Mark Goodge - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:36 UTC

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 10:52:54 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 12/10/2022 10:41, Ken wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>
>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>
>Ah, I was referring to people using proper™ cameras, didn't know that
>about the phone flash.

My phone will flash if I force it to, no matter what the light levels. But
the flash on a phone tends to be relatively low-powered so it isn't often
much of a help in dealing with outdoor shadows anyway.

The more usual solution, on a phone, is to capture the image in HDR and
store internally in camera raw format so that the phone's software can
adjust the light levels in order to generate a jpg that looks acceptable no
matter what the environment. That is one of the advantages of using a phone
for snapshot photography, because the onboard processing power and software
on a phone is vastly superior to that of even the best DSLR. Obviously, a
DSLR plus a decent lens and some skillful post-processing in Photoshop will
always beat even the best phone camera. But if you're happy with what is,
effectively, a prime lens and letting the software do the post-processing, a
phone is all you need for a lot of everyday photography.

Mark

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: anna@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The total energy consumed by each fan (a few hundred watts) gets added to
>>>>> the heat in the system.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does the heat contribution of a handful of fans compare to that of
>>>>>> thousands of people and hundreds of trains?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's only a very small increment, but it's nevertheless contributing to the
>>>>> heating, rather than reducing it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> …whilst at the same time making the *perception* of the heat more bearable,
>>>
>>> Only for those directly in front of the fan, but slightly worse for the
>>> much larger number of others in the area.
>>>
>>>> so a net win overall for passenger comfort.
>>>
>>> I'm not so sure about that.
>>>
>>
>> Presumably you never fan yourself with a piece of paper (etc) when you're
>> feeling hot, for fear of infinitesimally increasing the overall
>> temperature?
>>
>
> I happily use fans, but in ventilated spaces. Any energy contributed by the
> fan doesn't build up.
>

So, standing on a hot Victoria Line platform, you wouldn't waft yourself
with the newspaper in your hand?

> The problem with the Victoria line in particular is that it doesn't have
> enough ventilation, because of the lack of piston effect.
>

Because the tunnels are slightly bigger?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: anna@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51 UTC

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>> glass.
>>>
>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>
>>
>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>
> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>

There should be a way to force it to flash.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: anna@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:32:28 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:32 UTC

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 10:52:54 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/10/2022 10:41, Ken wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>
>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>
>> Ah, I was referring to people using proper™ cameras, didn't know that
>> about the phone flash.
>
> My phone will flash if I force it to, no matter what the light levels. But
> the flash on a phone tends to be relatively low-powered so it isn't often
> much of a help in dealing with outdoor shadows anyway.
>
> The more usual solution, on a phone, is to capture the image in HDR and
> store internally in camera raw format so that the phone's software can
> adjust the light levels in order to generate a jpg that looks acceptable no
> matter what the environment. That is one of the advantages of using a phone
> for snapshot photography, because the onboard processing power and software
> on a phone is vastly superior to that of even the best DSLR. Obviously, a
> DSLR plus a decent lens and some skillful post-processing in Photoshop will
> always beat even the best phone camera. But if you're happy with what is,
> effectively, a prime lens and letting the software do the post-processing, a
> phone is all you need for a lot of everyday photography.
>

I've recently started experimenting with the RAW mode on my phone and I
must remember to use it more for situations like this.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: charlesellson@btinternet.com (Charles Ellson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 20:10:52 +0100
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 by: Charles Ellson - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:10 UTC

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>> glass.
>>>>
>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>
>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>
>
>There should be a way to force it to flash.
>
I haven't had a smartphone that didn't have on, off and auto.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: anna@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:21:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:21 UTC

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>
>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>
>>
>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>
> I haven't had a smartphone that didn't have on, off and auto.
>

Indeed.

Though simply tapping the flash icon may well toggle between off and auto,
with a hold-tap necessary to force 'on'.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

<irafkhth4dtb4rbjvmc2gai39d6dhetj0t@4ax.com>

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From: ken@birchanger.com (Ken)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Message-ID: <irafkhth4dtb4rbjvmc2gai39d6dhetj0t@4ax.com>
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 by: Ken - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 06:09 UTC

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>> glass.
>>>>
>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>
>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>
>
>There should be a way to force it to flash.
>
I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: recliner.usenet@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 07:39:12 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 07:39 UTC

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>
>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>
>>
>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>
> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.

Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
in bright light.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

<ti8h5a$1ol5d$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet.tweed@gmail.com (Tweed)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:10:18 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Tweed - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:10 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>
>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>
>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>
> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
> in bright light.
>

The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
continuous torch mode.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

<ti8i6u$1onfv$2@dont-email.me>

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From: recliner.usenet@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:28:14 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:28 UTC

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>
>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>
>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>> in bright light.
>>
>
> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
> continuous torch mode.

It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus and
take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of the
image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus. But it's
not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in compact
cameras.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

<ti8ump$1pq0o$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk (Sam Wilson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:01:29 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Sam Wilson - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:01 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>>
>>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>>>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>>
>>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>>> in bright light.
>>>
>>
>> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
>> continuous torch mode.
>
> It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus and
> take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of the
> image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus. But it's
> not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in compact
> cameras.

The Android camera app in my phone puts the LED on for preview and focusing
and then turns it off and flashes it instantaneously for the photo.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: news@ingram-bromley.co.uk (nib)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:13:37 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: nib - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:13 UTC

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:01:29 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:

> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should
>>>>>>>>>> be used whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large
>>>>>>>>>> stadiums or firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking
>>>>>>>>>> pictures of objects behind glass.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank
>>>>>>>>> taking a picture of the city from the wall asking her friend if
>>>>>>>>> she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when
>>>>>>>> taking photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON
>>>>>>> should be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on
>>>>> several occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no
>>>> difference whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my
>>>> phone, the flash is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark,
>>>> but almost unnoticeable in bright light.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
>>> continuous torch mode.
>>
>> It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus
>> and take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of
>> the image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus.
>> But it's not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in
>> compact cameras.
>
> The Android camera app in my phone puts the LED on for preview and
> focusing and then turns it off and flashes it instantaneously for the
> photo.
>
> Sam

It's difficult to tell, the eye being in the short term sensitive to the
total energy rather than peak intensity, whether the final flash is
brighter than the steady focusing light.

Still not as bright as a flash though.

nib

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: 13 Oct 2022 14:16:13 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:16 UTC

In uk.transport.london Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
> in bright light.

In my junk pile is a Sony Ericsson C905 which was supposedly a fancy
cameraphone in its day, and that has a Xenon flash tube. So it can be done,
but I imagine the tradeoffs versus the compactness of some LEDs make having
a flash tube not worthwhile.

(it is mechanically very sad and the camera slider doesn't open any more,
which makes the camera not usable)

Theo

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: roland@perry.uk (Roland Perry)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:57:48 +0100
Organization: Roland Perry
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 by: Roland Perry - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:57 UTC

In message <XBw*NpG0y@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:16:13 on Thu,
13 Oct 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>In uk.transport.london Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>> in bright light.
>
>In my junk pile is a Sony Ericsson C905 which was supposedly a fancy
>cameraphone in its day, and that has a Xenon flash tube.

I have one too. It's more of a camera with a phone attached, than a
phone with a camera attached, though.

I classify it as the first smartphone I had, because it had GSM data and
a few apps. It may have also been the first apparatus I had which
geo-tagged the photos.

>So it can be done, but I imagine the tradeoffs versus the compactness
>of some LEDs make having a flash tube not worthwhile.
>
>(it is mechanically very sad and the camera slider doesn't open any more,
>which makes the camera not usable)

The mechanical engineering was distinctly dodgy (I gather that the
current fad for folding smartphones might suffer the same problem).

The first thing that failed on them was usually the cord to the speaker,
which is in the main slider-lid, not the body. Have you tried WD40 on
the camera lens cover?
--
Roland Perry

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: recliner.usenet@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london,uk.railway
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:52:43 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:52 UTC

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>>>>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>>>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>>>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>>>> in bright light.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
>>> continuous torch mode.
>>
>> It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus and
>> take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of the
>> image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus. But it's
>> not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in compact
>> cameras.
>
> The Android camera app in my phone puts the LED on for preview and focusing
> and then turns it off and flashes it instantaneously for the photo.
>

Yes, I've just checked, and mine does the same. The light doesn't look any
brighter in that final flash, but you'd probably have to video the scene
with a high frame rate to check.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: anna@noyd-dryver.com (Anna Noyd-Dryver)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Anna Noyd-Dryver - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:16 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>>
>>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>>>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>>
>>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>>> in bright light.
>>>
>>
>> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
>> continuous torch mode.
>
> It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus and
> take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of the
> image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus. But it's
> not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in compact
> cameras.
>
>

On my iPhone 13, the light comes on for around 1/2 second at usual torch
brightness to help the phone determine focus, exposure etc.; then it goes
off briefly and then flashes once for the photo to be taken. I'm unable to
visually determine whether the flash is brighter than the usual torch (even
standing in a dark cupboard, the flash it too brief to discern the relative
brightness). Actually after further experimentation, I think it is
definitely brighter (holding fingers in front of the flash and observing
reflected light).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: recliner.usenet@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:25:21 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:25 UTC

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>>>>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>>>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>>>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>>>> in bright light.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
>>> continuous torch mode.
>>
>> It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus and
>> take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of the
>> image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus. But it's
>> not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in compact
>> cameras.
>>
>>
>
> On my iPhone 13, the light comes on for around 1/2 second at usual torch
> brightness to help the phone determine focus, exposure etc.; then it goes
> off briefly and then flashes once for the photo to be taken. I'm unable to
> visually determine whether the flash is brighter than the usual torch (even
> standing in a dark cupboard, the flash it too brief to discern the relative
> brightness). Actually after further experimentation, I think it is
> definitely brighter (holding fingers in front of the flash and observing
> reflected light).
>

I think you'd need to film those few seconds with a HFR video camera, so
you can compare frames during the preview and exposure phases.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: recliner.usenet@gmail.com (Recliner)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:01:36 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Recliner - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:01 UTC

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:51:45 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 21:25:44 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 16:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 09:16:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like the many people who think that the flash should be used
>>>>>>>>>>> whenever pictures are taken in low light, even in large stadiums or
>>>>>>>>>>> firework displays. Or, even worse, when taking pictures of objects behind
>>>>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was at edinburgh castle many years ago and overhead a yank taking a picture
>>>>>>>>>> of the city from the wall asking her friend if she should use the flash.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The other side is trying to convince people to use flash when taking
>>>>>>>>> photos of people with the sun behind them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've tried. My phone camera decides that turning the flash ON should
>>>>>>>> be ignored if it thinks it's light enough.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There should be a way to force it to flash.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree. Flash can be set to on, off or auto. I've noticed on several
>>>>>> occasions that ON can be ignored in bright conditions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone flashes are so feeble that it would make little or no difference
>>>>> whether they operated or not in bright conditions. Ony my phone, the flash
>>>>> is the same LED as the torch: useful in the dark, but almost unnoticeable
>>>>> in bright light.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The led can be driven much harder for a short duration flash than for
>>>> continuous torch mode.
>>>
>>> It doesn't briefly flash. It just comes on continuously to frame, focus and
>>> take the picture. That has the advantage that you get a preview of the
>>> image that will be captured, and it's more likely to be in focus. But it's
>>> not nearly as bright as a proper flash, even the tiny ones in compact
>>> cameras.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> On my iPhone 13, the light comes on for around 1/2 second at usual torch
>> brightness to help the phone determine focus, exposure etc.; then it goes
>> off briefly and then flashes once for the photo to be taken. I'm unable to
>> visually determine whether the flash is brighter than the usual torch (even
>> standing in a dark cupboard, the flash it too brief to discern the relative
>> brightness). Actually after further experimentation, I think it is
>> definitely brighter (holding fingers in front of the flash and observing
>> reflected light).
>>
>
> I think you'd need to film those few seconds with a HFR video camera, so
> you can compare frames during the preview and exposure phases.

I did some more tests on my phone, and now do think the brief exposure
flash is brighter than the preview/focus illuminator.

Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans

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From: dave@dave-jackson.org.uk (Dave Jackson)
Newsgroups: uk.railway,uk.transport.london
Subject: Re: The Victoria Line, heat and fans
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 21:06:19 +0100
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 by: Dave Jackson - Sat, 15 Oct 2022 20:06 UTC

On 12/10/2022 12:27, ColinR wrote:
>> What it's becoming:
>> <https://www.westonwilliamson.com/projects/euston-vent-shaft>
>>
>
> But, by God, that is UGLY!

Agreed. But I can't see it from here...
--
Dave,
Frodsham
http://s1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc461/Davy41/

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