Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
and phone calls.

Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued. So Zen will presumably
offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
"unlinking" it from the landline number.

How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?

Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
source VoIP from elsewhere?

--
Graham J

Graham J wrote:

> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?

they'll probably send you an ATA to plug into an ethernet port, then you
plug your POTS phone into that, or they might send you a VoIP handset
and ask you to join it to your wifi ...

On 02/05/2023 22:43, Andy Burns wrote:
> Graham J wrote:
>
>> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?
>
> they'll probably send you an ATA to plug into an ethernet port, then you
> plug your POTS phone into that, or they might send you a VoIP handset
> and ask you to join it to your wifi ...

In that case they'd almost definitely have to warn you to avoid heavy
internet use while using the phone.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 02/05/2023 21:49, Graham J wrote:
> Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
> and phone calls.
>
> Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued. So Zen will presumably
> offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
> "unlinking" it from the landline number.
>
> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?
>
> Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
> source VoIP from elsewhere?

2025? Good luck with that:
<https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/03/openreach-bring-fttp-broadband-to-10-million-uk-premises.html>
"Openreach’s average FTTP build rate is currently c. 62,000 premises per
week and they aim to cover 25m UK premises by Dec 2026 (80%+ of the UK)."

So that still leaves around 20% without Openreach FTTP at the end of
2026. Some will be dealt with by other providers, but just how many will
there be still without FTTP at that time?

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

> 2025? Good luck with that:

They're not saying everyone will have fibre to the home by 2025, just
that you won't have voice over copper, you'll have voice over broadband
(the broadband might be over copper or over fibre).

Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 02/05/2023 21:49, Graham J wrote:
>> Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
>> and phone calls.
>>
>> Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued.  So Zen will presumably
>> offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
>> "unlinking" it from the landline number.
>>
>> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?
>>
>> Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
>> source VoIP from elsewhere?
>
> 2025? Good luck with that:
> <https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/03/openreach-bring-fttp-broadband-to-10-million-uk-premises.html>
> "Openreach’s average FTTP build rate is currently c. 62,000 premises per
> week and they aim to cover 25m UK premises by Dec 2026 (80%+ of the UK)."
>
> So that still leaves around 20% without Openreach FTTP at the end of
> 2026. Some will be dealt with by other providers, but just how many will
> there be still without FTTP at that time?
>

Openreach technicians that I talk to when I see them working nearby
suggest that broadband over copper (so FTTC [=VDSL] and ADSL) will
continue to be used in many places until at least 2035.

I know of locations that can only get ADSL at about 1Mbit/sec download,
which re-syncs every few hours - clearly not suitable to carry VoIP.

I also know of loocations on copper lines about 12km in length which
cannot even get ADSL. They generally can't get any flavour of mobile
either!

--
Graham J

On Tue, 2 May 2023 21:49:57 +0100, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk>
wrote:

>Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
>and phone calls.
>
>Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued. So Zen will presumably
>offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
>"unlinking" it from the landline number.
>
>How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?
>
>Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
>source VoIP from elsewhere?

Both Zen and BT offer their own VOIP services, if you want them. You
can keep your existing landline phone number, and they provide the
necessary equipment.

It's simplest to have both internet and phone services from the same
company, and if you have reasonable broadband speed already, you don't
even need to wait for the fibre upgrade to do this. It might make the
fibre upgrade simpler if it's all done within the same company.

I have Zen's VOIP service I regularly speak on the phone to someone
who has the BT VOIP service. Both seem toto work very well.

Rod.

On 03/05/2023 08:25, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> 2025? Good luck with that:
>
> They're not saying everyone will have fibre to the home by 2025, just
> that you won't have voice over copper, you'll have voice over
> broadband (the broadband might be over copper or over fibre).
>
If I had a pound for every comment made on t'internet, that POTs switch
off is contingent on FTTP roll out, I'd be a millionaire !

On Wed 03/05/2023 10:23, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Tue, 2 May 2023 21:49:57 +0100, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
>> and phone calls.
>>
>> Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued. So Zen will presumably
>> offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
>> "unlinking" it from the landline number.
>>
>> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?
>>
>> Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
>> source VoIP from elsewhere?
>
> Both Zen and BT offer their own VOIP services, if you want them. You
> can keep your existing landline phone number, and they provide the
> necessary equipment.
>
> It's simplest to have both internet and phone services from the same
> company, and if you have reasonable broadband speed already, you don't
> even need to wait for the fibre upgrade to do this. It might make the
> fibre upgrade simpler if it's all done within the same company.
>
> I have Zen's VOIP service I regularly speak on the phone to someone
> who has the BT VOIP service. Both seem toto work very well.
>

Just a word of warning. If you upgrade to FTTP with Zen you may well
have to start a new contract which means that if you are on the 'never
see a price rise' T&C you may well loose it. If you have mail through
Zen you will likely loose that as well as they no longer support mail
which means you will either have to change your mail to gmail or hotmail
or whatever, or find another organisation that can handle your mail for you.
Cityfibre go past my house and I can get FTTP from them at 150Mb both
ways with Zen for less than £30/m against £42 that I am currently paying
to VM for 50/5Mb, but the issues above would apply to me as well. In
fact none of the 11 broadband providers handled by CityFibre here - with
the possible exception of TT - provide a mail service.

On Wed, 3 May 2023 10:42:00 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>Just a word of warning. If you upgrade to FTTP with Zen you may well
>have to start a new contract which means that if you are on the 'never
>see a price rise' T&C you may well loose it.

A fair point, but it may still be cheaper than paying a line rental
for a landline *as well as* the fibre service, and in any case there
will come a time when there is no longer a line to rent, so you'll
have to get everything by fibre anyway.

>If you have mail through
>Zen you will likely loose that as well as they no longer support mail
>which means you will either have to change your mail to gmail or hotmail
>or whatever, or find another organisation that can handle your mail for you.

I use Zen email addresses, which I did not lose when I upgraded to
fibre, so maybe they're just not providing them for new customers. If
they have any intention of withdrawing the email service from existing
customers, they have not communicated this intention to me.

Defimitely something to enquire about though.

Rod.

On 03/05/2023 08:25, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> 2025? Good luck with that:
>
> They're not saying everyone will have fibre to the home by 2025, just
> that you won't have voice over copper, you'll have voice over broadband
> (the broadband might be over copper or over fibre).

My error. It was wishful thinking on my part, as it's just that I'll
probably lose my current broadband "price for life" with Zen if VoIP is
added to their service. I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I
have is quite adequate.

--

Jeff

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
> and phone calls.
>
> Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued. So Zen will presumably
> offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
> "unlinking" it from the landline number.
>
> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?

Lots of words have been written about the PSTN switch off, but I've seen
nothing about this particular scenario (WLR3 switchoff).

> Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
> source VoIP from elsewhere?

I think it likely, although the process to manage that transition is
unclear.

(The obvious 'elsewhere' being your broadband provider, but it's not going
to happen without a migration flow)

I suspect they might leave this as 'too hard' for now, and come back to it
after the bulk of other people are transitioned.

Theo

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:

> Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 02/05/2023 21:49, Graham J wrote:
>>> Suppose I have broadband from Zen Internet, and I pay BT for line rental
>>> and phone calls.
>>>
>>> Sometime before 2025 POTS will be discontinued.  So Zen will presumably
>>> offer me the option of converting my existing broadband to SOGEA thereby
>>> "unlinking" it from the landline number.
>>>
>>> How will BT offer to provide the voice calls?
>>>
>>> Will they simply tell me that voice will be discontinued and that I must
>>> source VoIP from elsewhere?
>> 2025? Good luck with that:
>> <https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/03/openreach-bring-fttp-broadband-to-10-million-uk-premises.html>
>> "Openreach’s average FTTP build rate is currently c. 62,000 premises
>> per week and they aim to cover 25m UK premises by Dec 2026 (80%+ of
>> the UK)."
>> So that still leaves around 20% without Openreach FTTP at the end of
>> 2026. Some will be dealt with by other providers, but just how many
>> will there be still without FTTP at that time?
>>
>
> Openreach technicians that I talk to when I see them working nearby
> suggest that broadband over copper (so FTTC [=VDSL] and ADSL) will
> continue to be used in many places until at least 2035.
>
> I know of locations that can only get ADSL at about 1Mbit/sec
> download, which re-syncs every few hours - clearly not suitable to
> carry VoIP.
>
> I also know of loocations on copper lines about 12km in length which
> cannot even get ADSL. They generally can't get any flavour of mobile
> either!

The gov says there will be 5G in all populated areas by 2030. (But there
might be a different government by then of course).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-wireless-infrastructure-strategy/uk-wireless-infrastructure-strategy

On 03/05/2023 12:30, Richmond wrote:
>
> Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> I know of locations that can only get ADSL at about 1Mbit/sec
>> download, which re-syncs every few hours - clearly not suitable to
>> carry VoIP.

+1

>> I also know of loocations on copper lines about 12km in length which
>> cannot even get ADSL. They generally can't get any flavour of mobile
>> either!

+1

> The gov says there will be 5G in all populated areas by 2030. (But there
> might be a different government by then of course).
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-wireless-infrastructure-strategy/uk-wireless-infrastructure-strategy

Politicians in and out of government are fond of making what they see as
'vote harvesting' promises about popular issues such as the NHS and
broadband, but rarely deliver on such promises. We've been promised
better broadband under one deal/promise or another for, to the best of
my recollection, at least two decades now, I'll believe it when it
actually happens.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 03/05/2023 12:01, Theo wrote:
>
> I suspect they might leave this as 'too hard' for now, and come back to it
> after the bulk of other people are transitioned.

So probably a situation where rural locations will lose out yet again.
Ofcom should make the providers upgrade from areas of low population
density inwards to the areas of high population density, as some other
European countries do; that way they'd have every incentive to cover
rural locations as quickly as possible, instead of neglecting them in
every new rollout, and rural locations, which need good connectivity the
most, always being 2 or 3 generations in technology behind.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Jeff Layman wrote:

> I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I have is quite adequate.

Same here, very happy with VDSL, there is a virgin fibre "toby" at the
end of my drive, but I have no intention of using it ...

Woody wrote:

[snip]

> Just a word of warning. If you upgrade to FTTP with Zen you may well
> have to start a new contract which means that if you are on the 'never
> see a price rise' T&C you may well loose it. If you have mail through
> Zen you will likely loose that as well as they no longer support mail
> which means you will either have to change your mail to gmail or hotmail
> or whatever, or find another organisation that can handle your mail for
> you.

[snip]

In February I planned to port my landline to Voipfone. I then had FTTC
and voice from Zen. Voipfone were very clear that any attempt to port
the landline to them would result in cessation of the associated FTTC
service. It might then have been possible to get a new service from
Zen, using the same username and IP address; but I didn't ask.

By happy coincidence Zen announced that they could provide FTTP.

So I ordered a completely new FTTP service. This came with a new Zen
username. I ordered through my Zen Portal, which showed that I would
get a new email address, web space and FTP service. However, Zen admit
that their portal lies: none of this is true. They haven't issued new
email addreses etc with any new broadband services for over a year.
Which is not a problem for me because I have my emails hosted elsewhere,
and didn't require the webspace or FTP.

Once FTTP was installed and working, I then ported my landline to
Voipfone, thereby cancelling the old FTTC service as well.

Since then, my sister, also with Zen for FTTC and voice, received an
ultimatum from Zen. Ths was to either (a) have broadband only; or (b)
have broadband with Zen's proprietary "Digital Voice". Her decision had
to be made within a week. She didn't need the voice number (had
another, for historical reasons) so chose broadband only.

In due course her existing FTTC service was converted to SOGEA, with
about 12 hours of down time (as previously reported here). In due
course she should be able to take up FTTP, and this should be a seamless
transfer (will let you know!)

This week I checked again with Voipfone. They now say: "What with the
wholesale switch away from analogue lines, we can now retrieve a number
up to 30 days after it has been disconnected."

So: wait until Zen give you the ultimatum (a) have broadband only; or
(b) have broadband with Digital Voice. Choose broadband only, and ask
your preferred VoIP provider to port in the landline number on the date
that Zen gives you for its cancellation.

Would be good to hear the experiences of others ....

--
Graham J

On 03/05/2023 13:00, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I have is quite adequate.
>
> Same here, very happy with VDSL, there is a virgin fibre "toby" at the
> end of my drive, but I have no intention of using it ...
>
+1

Our allocated Virgin Toby 'broke up' due to traffic (it was in the road)
generating a pothole, which Hampshire Highways then came along and
filled in with a big splurge of tarmac.

Anyway, bargepoles and all that....

Despite all the surrounding roads having Oprenreach fibre being pulled
recently, and dist boxes appearing on telegraph poles, Openreach emailed
me last month, to say we are not part of their plan for FTTP roll out.
So I'll have to make to with that 84m long bit of copper to the cabinet
for some time more......

On Wed, 3 May 2023 13:00:27 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I have is quite adequate.
>
>Same here, very happy with VDSL, there is a virgin fibre "toby" at the
>end of my drive, but I have no intention of using it ...

Eventually you will have no choice but to go with FTTP. You might want
to consider jumping before you are pushed.

Rod.

Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 May 2023 13:00:27 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>> I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I have is quite adequate.
>>
>> Same here, very happy with VDSL, there is a virgin fibre "toby" at the
>> end of my drive, but I have no intention of using it ...
>
> Eventually you will have no choice but to go with FTTP. You might want
> to consider jumping before you are pushed.

Why? Do you think early jumpers will be offered preferential rates? Seems
more likely to me that prices will be initially driven by the “speed
freaks” who think they need more speed and are hence an easy mark for
“milking” by the ISPs.

Once FTTP becomes the norm, I would imagine that just like mobile 5G
prices, prices will come down.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/05/2023 12:01, Theo wrote:
> >
> > I suspect they might leave this as 'too hard' for now, and come back to it
> > after the bulk of other people are transitioned.
>
> So probably a situation where rural locations will lose out yet again.

I don't see how the situation of having broadband and phone from different
companies has anything to do with being rural or urban. It (WLR3) was a
product popular ~10-15 years ago that some people have stuck with, while
others have not.

Theo

Roderick Stewart wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>> I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I have is quite adequate.
>>
>> Same here, very happy with VDSL, there is a virgin fibre "toby" at the
>> end of my drive, but I have no intention of using it ...
>
> Eventually you will have no choice but to go with FTTP. You might want
> to consider jumping before you are pushed.

At the moment staying put seems a good way to avoid porting problems, if
openreach provided FTTP I'd take it ...

Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/05/2023 13:00, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>> I don't need FTTP speeds, as the current FTTC I have is quite adequate.
>>
>> Same here, very happy with VDSL, there is a virgin fibre "toby" at the
>> end of my drive, but I have no intention of using it ...
>>
> +1
>
> Our allocated Virgin Toby 'broke up' due to traffic (it was in the road)
> generating a pothole, which Hampshire Highways then came along and
> filled in with a big splurge of tarmac.
>
> Anyway, bargepoles and all that....
>
> Despite all the surrounding roads having Oprenreach fibre being pulled
> recently, and dist boxes appearing on telegraph poles, Openreach emailed
> me last month, to say we are not part of their plan for FTTP roll out.
> So I'll have to make to with that 84m long bit of copper to the cabinet
> for some time more......
>

You might want to make enquiries with OR. Apparently they did a mistaken
mass emailing last month incorrectly stating properties were out of scope.

On 3 May 2023 14:39:40 GMT, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Eventually you will have no choice but to go with FTTP. You might want
>> to consider jumping before you are pushed.
>
>Why? Do you think early jumpers will be offered preferential rates?

Early jumpers will not be forced to make hasty choices because the
service they're using is about to end, but can research what's
available and transfer in their own time.

Rod.

Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 3 May 2023 14:39:40 GMT, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Eventually you will have no choice but to go with FTTP. You might want
>>> to consider jumping before you are pushed.
>>
>> Why? Do you think early jumpers will be offered preferential rates?
>
> Early jumpers will not be forced to make hasty choices because the
> service they're using is about to end, but can research what's
> available and transfer in their own time.
>
> Rod.
>

I can do all that without switching now.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls