On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 13:19:00 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:55:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:10:56 -0000 (UTC)
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:11:02 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com>
>wrote:
>>>> But otherwise I wonder if TfL will keep up this distinction once their
>shiny
>>>> new railway just becomes an unremarkable part of the fabric of London.
>>>
>>>I think so. But, arguably, the EL could eventually be merged with LO,
>>>particularly after the latter becomes six named lines. The EL could just
>>>become the seventh LO line, all operated by Aventras. But I don't expect it
>>>any time soon.
>>
>>Or better yet convert it back to a tube line so its service isn't screwed up
>>by the goings on on southern region.
>
>The Elizabeth Line was never a Tube line and isn't affected by problems on the
>Southern region.

My mistake, I was thinking of the ELL , not the EL.

Iain Archer <ianews@montaigne.me.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:57:47 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote:
>
>> On 26/10/2023 16:51, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>>>>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground and
>>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day anyway...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube" stations
>>>>>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening of
>>>>>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And its
>>>>>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>>>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of LU, but
>>>>>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has always
>>>>>>> included the SSL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>>>>>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>>>>>
>>>>> April 1996:
>>>>> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from 1987:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>>>>>> Acton Green tube station
>>>>>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British Listed
>>>>>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So you
>>>>>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was obviously before 1987.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
>>>> that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.
>>>
>>> The point is that the Acton Green station name was from the early days of
>>> the station. If some people were already calling it Acton Green tube
>>> station back then, then there was never a clear distinction.
>>>
>>
>> The key word there is "if".
>
> Re "tube" for cut-and-cover stations, here are a few examples from
> local papers got from a search of britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk.
>
> [quote]
> BABY ABANDONED AT TUBE STATION
> Found abandoned last week in the women's
> cloakroom at Bayswater, Queensway,
> tube station. 1947
> [ie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayswater_tube_station]
>
> COLLAPSED IN TUBE STATION
> As he stood at the foot of the steps leading to the
> main booking hall of Putney Bridge station, ...
> West London Observer - Friday 01 October 1954
>
> OPPOSITE MORDEN TUBE STATION
> Garage display ad 1956
> [unquote]

I suppose even purists would call Morden a Tube station as it's served by
the Northern Line.

>
> I think that was from a search starting somewhere in the 40s. I don't
> myself remember, from the 1950's on, not thinking of the District line
> trains running from Wimbledon as tube trains.
>
> Re "tube" in general: that appears in use very early. The OED shows
> "tube railway" (1900-), tube-train (1901-) "tube station"(1913-) and
> "The Tube" (1924).

I suppose that dates from the Tuppenny Tube that opened in 1900. One
syllable and four letters trumps three and 12.

>
> In BNA it can be found in newspaper display ads early in the century, eg:
>
> "HAMPSTEAD TUBE NOW OPEN
> (CHARING CROSS EUSTON & HIGHGATE RAILWAY)" - a full page ad, with
> some journey times, fares and connection points, in The Bystander of
> Wednesday 26 June 1907. The London-wide map labels include Bakerloo Tube",
> "Piccadilly Tube" and "District Railway"; whereas a similar one six
> months earlier had each line labelled with its railway company name.
>
> "TUBE LIFT POSTERS" (1908)
>
> "Take the Tube to Thompsons" (1908)
>
> And, I think, to cap any doubt that "tube" was a common colloquialism
> very early on, numerous accommodation small ads, from at least 1907,
> containing the like of "Close tube, bus, rail,...".

It looks like Tube soon became the colloquial term for all Underground
trains, but it probably only became official in the mid 1990s.

"Iain Archer" <ianews@montaigne.me.uk> wrote in message
news:uhgfha$2a2v3$1@dont-email.me...
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 16:57:47 +0100, Graeme Wall wrote:
>
>> On 26/10/2023 16:51, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/10/2023 14:55, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:29:35 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 12:41, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/10/2023 11:11, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8iqgm1lchgh001@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>> billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Blueshirt" <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:xn0o8h4nczzhbk000@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years...
>>>>>>>>>>>> simple
>>>>>>>>>>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As its for use on smartphones, presumably as a menu option
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Tube"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> would fit better on the screen than would
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "London Underground Docklands Light Railway London Overground
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> Elizabeth Line"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose they'll all just be known as "tube stations" one day
>>>>>>>>>> anyway...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The existing cut and cover line stations were never real "tube"
>>>>>>>>> stations
>>>>>>>>> in any case. The term only came into popular use with the opening
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the third deep level line, the Central London Railway in 1900. And
>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> being nicknamed "The Twopenny Tube" by the "Daily Mail".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quite when the name "Tube" became generally applicable to all
>>>>>>>>> Underground operations I'm not really sure. And I'm not altogether
>>>>>>>>> certain that Frank Pick would necessarily have approved
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fairly recently because tabloid journalists can't cope with
>>>>>>>> multi-syllable words.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't remember when TfL/LU started using 'Tube' to cover all of
>>>>>>> LU, but
>>>>>>> it's been quite a few decades. For example, the 'Tube Map' has
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> included the SSL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The earliest example of a "Tube Map", as opposed to a "London
>>>>>> Underground" map, I can find is 1997.
>>>>>
>>>>> April 1996:
>>>>> https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/posters/item/1996-3375
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at this listing for Chiswick Park District Line station from
>>>>>>> 1987:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101358798-chiswick-park-underground-station-including-two-platforms-with-canopies-and-shelters-and-shops-to-either-side-of-ticket-hall-southfield-ward
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also known as: Chiswick Park Underground station
>>>>>>> Acton Green tube station
>>>>>>> Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green Underground station
>>>>>>> Chiswick Park & Acton Green tube station
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the terms were almost interchangeable even then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong, those names are not in the official listing. IIRC British
>>>>>> Listed
>>>>>> Buildings is a website run by one of the correspondents on here. So
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> will have to ask him where he got those names from and when.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was obviously before 1987.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing obvious about it. The listing date is 1987, I sincerely doubt
>>>> that the British Listed Buildings website existed then.
>>>
>>> The point is that the Acton Green station name was from the early days
>>> of
>>> the station. If some people were already calling it Acton Green tube
>>> station back then, then there was never a clear distinction.
>>>
>>
>> The key word there is "if".
>
> Re "tube" for cut-and-cover stations, here are a few examples from
> local papers got from a search of britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk.
>
> [quote]
> BABY ABANDONED AT TUBE STATION
> Found abandoned last week in the women's
> cloakroom at Bayswater, Queensway,
> tube station. 1947
> [ie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayswater_tube_station]
>
> COLLAPSED IN TUBE STATION
> As he stood at the foot of the steps leading to the
> main booking hall of Putney Bridge station, ...
> West London Observer - Friday 01 October 1954
>
> OPPOSITE MORDEN TUBE STATION
> Garage display ad 1956
> [unquote]
>
> I think that was from a search starting somewhere in the 40s. I don't
> myself remember, from the 1950's on, not thinking of the District line
> trains running from Wimbledon as tube trains.
>
> Re "tube" in general: that appears in use very early. The OED shows
> "tube railway" (1900-), tube-train (1901-) "tube station"(1913-) and
> "The Tube" (1924).
>
> In BNA it can be found in newspaper display ads early in the century, eg:
>
> "HAMPSTEAD TUBE NOW OPEN
> (CHARING CROSS EUSTON & HIGHGATE RAILWAY)" - a full page ad, with
> some journey times, fares and connection points, in The Bystander of
> Wednesday 26 June 1907. The London-wide map labels include Bakerloo Tube",
> "Piccadilly Tube" and "District Railway"; whereas a similar one six
> months earlier had each line labelled with its railway company name.
>
> "TUBE LIFT POSTERS" (1908)
>
> "Take the Tube to Thompsons" (1908)

Indeed. Both the Bakerloo and Piccadilly had sections of both
deep level "tube" and overground sections.

While the overall name "Underground" which was officially adopted
for the whole system quite early on, and publicised as such, included
lines with large overgound sections such as the District with plenty
of overground stations, in addition to cut and cover

On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 14:53:47 +0000, Recliner wrote:

> Iain Archer <ianews@montaigne.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>> OPPOSITE MORDEN TUBE STATION
>> Garage display ad 1956
>> [unquote]
>
> I suppose even purists would call Morden a Tube station
> as it's served by the Northern Line.
>
Whoops. :) Thanks for that correction. I'm not sure why
I made that error, given that I have seen Morden station.
I'd been ploughing though BNA matches on "tube station",
and was eager to land the third example. I suspect the
unjustified notion that ends of line are always on the
surface then helped.
>
>>
>> I think that was from a search starting somewhere in the 40s. I don't
>> myself remember, from the 1950's on, not thinking of the District line
>> trains running from Wimbledon as tube trains.
>>
>> Re "tube" in general: that appears in use very early. The OED shows
>> "tube railway" (1900-), tube-train (1901-) "tube station"(1913-) and
>> "The Tube" (1924).
>
> I suppose that dates from the Tuppenny Tube that opened in 1900. One
> syllable and four letters trumps three and 12.
>
>>
>> In BNA it can be found in newspaper display ads early in the century, eg:
>>
>> "HAMPSTEAD TUBE NOW OPEN
>> (CHARING CROSS EUSTON & HIGHGATE RAILWAY)" - a full page ad, with
>> some journey times, fares and connection points, in The Bystander of
>> Wednesday 26 June 1907. The London-wide map labels include Bakerloo Tube",
>> "Piccadilly Tube" and "District Railway"; whereas a similar one six
>> months earlier had each line labelled with its railway company name.
>>
>> "TUBE LIFT POSTERS" (1908)
>>
>> "Take the Tube to Thompsons" (1908)
>>
>> And, I think, to cap any doubt that "tube" was a common colloquialism
>> very early on, numerous accommodation small ads, from at least 1907,
>> containing the like of "Close tube, bus, rail,...".
>
> It looks like Tube soon became the colloquial term for all Underground
> trains, but it probably only became official in the mid 1990s.

The OED citation of "The Tube" in 1924 in a Galsworthy novel did iirc
gloss it as a proprietary term, so there might just be more to be found on
that front. But not by me at the moment. My BB line's effectively down.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/10/2023 21:37, Roger wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100, "Blueshirt"
>> <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>
>>> Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>
>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>
>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>
>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>
>> Indeed that is what I was referring to. I haven't bothered to
>> work out whether that includes all rail lines; Underground, DLR,
>> Trams, Overground, and Elizabeth line. From the picture Trams
>> isn't included.
>
> It probably the number the game's creator has listed in his game. If he
> says it's 416, why should the BBC argue?

The game includes EL, LO and DLR in addition to LU.

Initially two stations were omitted in error (Iver and Kentish Town) but
they've since been added.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:14:33 +0100, "Blueshirt"
>> <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>
>>> Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67197933
>>>>
>>>> This article has a glaring error. That doesn't detract from the
>>>> game itself, of course.
>>>
>>> It's the BBC, their standards have dropped over the years... simple
>>> research is not their strongest point.
>>>
>>> (I'm assuming it's the "416 stations" thing?)
>>
>> Indeed that is what I was referring to. I haven't bothered to
>> work out whether that includes all rail lines; Underground, DLR,
>> Trams, Overground, and Elizabeth line. From the picture Trams
>> isn't included.
>
> It's LU, LO, EL and DLR:
>
> https://london.metro-memory.com
>
> One hint to maximise your score: stations are counted by line, so Victoria
> gets you three points, Edgware Road four, Stratford five; and Liverpool
> Street, Kings Cross St Pancras and Paddington six each.
>

Aah, that explains the oddly irregular increase in percentage that I
noticed!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> One other confusion is with the Elizabeth Line, which (mainly because of
>> its name) was initially thought to be just the latest Tube line. And,
>> indeed, in central London, it does run in deep tubes, albeit larger
>> diameter ones.
>>
>> Even in uk.railway, many were confused, not understanding that TfL ranked
>> it alongside the Underground, Overground, DLR, Trams, etc, rather than
>> with the individual LU lines.
>
> I suppose there are certain customer-facing differences between the 'tube'
> (including SSL) and the EL (eg availability of through NR tickets on the
> EL), similarly with Overground (NR tickets) - any differences with the DLR?.
> But otherwise I wonder if TfL will keep up this distinction once their shiny
> new railway just becomes an unremarkable part of the fabric of London.
>
>

The EL will always technically be different from LU because really it's
just another mainline TOC, like LO.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>
> The EL will always technically be different from LU because really
> it's just another mainline TOC, like LO.

Yeah, but the Elizabeth Line goes under the ground in London, so ... ;-)