I refuse to use WhatsApp (because Meta) though I don't object to Signal
or Telegram, but of course none of my friends have even heard of those.

Apparently google have signed-up for an end-to-end encrypted messaging
system called MLS that would let them all interoperate

<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9420>

It seems there's pressure for that coming from the EU for that ...
unless of course they decide to withdraw from European markets due to
Online Safety Bill etc

On 08/08/2023 17:02, Andy Burns wrote:
> I refuse to use WhatsApp (because Meta) though I don't object to Signal
> or Telegram, but of course none of my friends have even heard of those.
>
> Apparently google have signed-up for an end-to-end encrypted messaging
> system called MLS that would let them all interoperate
>

Similar to the way in which MSN Messenger and Yahoo Messenger eventually
got round to it - and then disappeared shortly afterwards ?

--
random signature text inserted here

On Tue, 8 Aug 2023 17:02:17 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>I refuse to use WhatsApp (because Meta) though I don't object to Signal
>or Telegram, but of course none of my friends have even heard of those.
>

What issues are you fearing from the end-end WhatsApp messaging
system?

Note: tried going to Signal when Meta said they were going to collect
certain data and they quickly backtracked (can't recall all the
details) but ended up with about 3 contacts who have now reverted to
WhatsApp.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL wrote:

> What issues are you fearing from the end-end WhatsApp messaging
> system?

Not wanting to logon to Meta, to be allowed to call Meta users, any more
than I'd buy a car that required Ford petrol to drive on Ford roads.

> Note: tried going to Signal when Meta said they were going to collect
> certain data and they quickly backtracked (can't recall all the
> details) but ended up with about 3 contacts who have now reverted to
> WhatsApp.

If Meta/Signal/Telegram/Google/Apple all speak MLS then everyone can
choose a provider they like and still call everyone else ...

On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 05:33:00 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> What issues are you fearing from the end-end WhatsApp messaging
>> system?
>
>Not wanting to logon to Meta, to be allowed to call Meta users, any more
>than I'd buy a car that required Ford petrol to drive on Ford roads.
>
>> Note: tried going to Signal when Meta said they were going to collect
>> certain data and they quickly backtracked (can't recall all the
>> details) but ended up with about 3 contacts who have now reverted to
>> WhatsApp.
>
>If Meta/Signal/Telegram/Google/Apple all speak MLS then everyone can
>choose a provider they like and still call everyone else ...
>

So what do you use?

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL wrote:

> So what do you use?

RCS for android users who have RCS enabled, SMS for iPhone users and
other non-RCS users.

If Google deliver on their promise of MLS I shouldn't need to pick
between Telegram or Signal, to talk to WhatsApp users, but I would if
use either if necessary.

On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 21:07:32 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> So what do you use?
>
>RCS for android users who have RCS enabled, SMS for iPhone users and
>other non-RCS users.
>
>If Google deliver on their promise of MLS I shouldn't need to pick
>between Telegram or Signal, to talk to WhatsApp users, but I would if
>use either if necessary.
>

So you need a SIM and some form of payment arrangement (PAYG, Contract
etc)?

We have unlimited broadband at home - my wife will spend several hours
talking/videoing friends and family overseas. Meta (presumably) will
only know that a WhatsApp connection was made which your SIM provider
will also know. I'm not seeing the problem.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL wrote:

> So you need a SIM and some form of payment arrangement (PAYG, Contract
> etc)?

Well I already have those.

By sending as RCS I avoid using up my unlimited supply of SMS messages.

If I could send to WhatsApp, that's another zero cost way of communicating.

> We have unlimited broadband at home - my wife will spend several hours
> talking/videoing friends and family overseas. Meta (presumably) will
> only know that a WhatsApp connection was made which your SIM provider
> will also know. I'm not seeing the problem.

I flat out refuse to have any account with Meta, I'm not alone in that.

On 14:20 10 Aug 2023, Andy Burns said:
> AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>> So you need a SIM and some form of payment arrangement (PAYG,
>> Contract etc)?
>
> Well I already have those.
>
> By sending as RCS I avoid using up my unlimited supply of SMS
> messages.
>
> If I could send to WhatsApp, that's another zero cost way of
> communicating.
>
>> We have unlimited broadband at home - my wife will spend several
>> hours talking/videoing friends and family overseas. Meta
>> (presumably) will only know that a WhatsApp connection was made
>> which your SIM provider will also know. I'm not seeing the problem.
>
> I flat out refuse to have any account with Meta, I'm not alone in
> that.

I access Facebook only in a browser (Android or PC) where I can control
its snooping.

Instagram doesn't interest me.

However I would like to use WhatsApp but believe it only provides very
crippled function without access to your Android contacts. I haven't
found a way around this.

Pamela wrote:

> I would like to use WhatsApp but believe it only provides very
> crippled function without access to your Android contacts. I haven't
> found a way around this.

I don't want to use WhatsApp itself, but I wouldn't mind being able to
communicate with people that do ...

Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
> However I would like to use WhatsApp but believe it only provides very
> crippled function without access to your Android contacts. I haven't
> found a way around this.

If you go to a link like:
https://wa.me/+441234567890

it should open the number in WhatsApp and you can send it a message - then
the correspondent shows in your messages list. You can then chat to
them/call them/etc without giving it access to contacts. The only
difference is it may not show the name (which it would normally pull from
contacts) and only the number, but you can see their WA profile pic.

There's also an app you can use to do the equivalent:
https://github.com/subhamtyagi/openinwa

Theo

Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> writes:

> On 14:20 10 Aug 2023, Andy Burns said:
>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>> So you need a SIM and some form of payment arrangement (PAYG,
>>> Contract etc)?
>>
>> Well I already have those.
>>
>> By sending as RCS I avoid using up my unlimited supply of SMS
>> messages.
>>
>> If I could send to WhatsApp, that's another zero cost way of
>> communicating.
>>
>>> We have unlimited broadband at home - my wife will spend several
>>> hours talking/videoing friends and family overseas. Meta
>>> (presumably) will only know that a WhatsApp connection was made
>>> which your SIM provider will also know. I'm not seeing the problem.
>>
>> I flat out refuse to have any account with Meta, I'm not alone in
>> that.
>
> I access Facebook only in a browser (Android or PC) where I can control
> its snooping.
>
> Instagram doesn't interest me.
>
> However I would like to use WhatsApp but believe it only provides very
> crippled function without access to your Android contacts. I haven't
> found a way around this.

On my old phone it was possible to switch users. Having created a second
user and logged in, it was like having a new phone, no contacts,
nothing.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:

> Pamela wrote:
>
>> I would like to use WhatsApp but believe it only provides very
>> crippled function without access to your Android contacts. I haven't
>> found a way around this.
>
> I don't want to use WhatsApp itself, but I wouldn't mind being able to
> communicate with people that do ...

Have you come across Delta Chat? It's an email client with a chat
interface. If you know someone else who uses it you can have
e2ee. Otherwise it just sends an email. Ideally you would get everyone
to use the same email server to reduce time delays.

The website is Delta dot chat

I fear we will be stuck with Whatsapp like we were stuck with VHS video
tapes.

Richmond wrote:

> Have you come across Delta Chat? It's an email client with a chat
> interface.

I haven't, but more importantly I doubt my friends/family have.

I don't want to persuade them to use something they don't already use, I
just want to find a way of communicating from something I'm happy with
to what they're already using.

> I fear we will be stuck with Whatsapp like we were stuck with VHS
> video tapes.

I no longer have a VHS machine, and none of the tapes I still have are
precious ...

Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
> On my old phone it was possible to switch users. Having created a second
> user and logged in, it was like having a new phone, no contacts,
> nothing.

That's an Android feature. GrapheneOS uses it - you can have a completely
separate profile, with Google Play Services in that, and it's sandboxed away
from the rest of the phone (which may or may not have Play Services
installed). Putting Whatsapp in its own profile means it can't snoop on the
other apps, contacts, etc on the phone.

(Cross-profile notifications work but just say '<app> in <profile> sent a
notification', so you have to go into quick-settings to switch profile to
see what it was. That can be mildly annoying if you're in the habit of
reading messages on the lockscreen)

It's supported on Andy's Pixel 5a, just sayin' :-)

Theo

Theo wrote:

> That's an Android feature. [...] you can have a completely separate
> profile, with Google Play Services in that, and it's sandboxed away
> from the rest of the phone (which may or may not have Play Services
> installed). Putting Whatsapp in its own profile means it can't snoop
> on the other apps, contacts, etc on the phone.
>
> It's supported on Andy's Pixel 5a, just sayin' 🙂

I have used multiple users on my tablets, presume WA isn't happy on a
SIMless tablet due to no phone number?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
> > That's an Android feature. [...] you can have a completely separate
> > profile, with Google Play Services in that, and it's sandboxed away
> > from the rest of the phone (which may or may not have Play Services
> > installed). Putting Whatsapp in its own profile means it can't snoop
> > on the other apps, contacts, etc on the phone.
> >
> > It's supported on Andy's Pixel 5a, just sayin' 🙂
>
> I have used multiple users on my tablets, presume WA isn't happy on a
> SIMless tablet due to no phone number?

I think it'll work now: you just have to link it with a phone. They're
changed it recently so you can be logged in from multiple devices at the
same time and it syncs messages between them via the server (ie it doesn't
depend on talking to the phone over wifi or similar). Previously it would
kick you off one device if you logged in with another, but that's no longer
the case.

Not tried the tablet app, but I've done it between the iOS app (in a phone
with the number) and the Android app (in a phone with no SIM).

I think for the initial setup they send an SMS to verify the number, so it
could be a dumbphone, a VOIP number or maybe a landline[*] - doesn't have to
be the phone the app is running on. So maybe the Android app will work on a
tablet if you enter the verification code received on another device.

(it looks like they still don't support iPads, although you can use the web
app)

Theo

* They say VOIP and landlines aren't supported, but I suspect there may be
country-specific loopholes

On 16 Aug 2023 19:37:01 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>* They say VOIP and landlines aren't supported, but I suspect there may be
> country-specific loopholes

These are supported

0370 010 0444 BBC Radio 4
0330 123 0440 BBC Breakfast
0330 123 4346 BBC Today Programme
--
Roger

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>> On my old phone it was possible to switch users. Having created a second
>> user and logged in, it was like having a new phone, no contacts,
>> nothing.
>
> That's an Android feature. GrapheneOS uses it - you can have a completely
> separate profile, with Google Play Services in that, and it's sandboxed away
> from the rest of the phone (which may or may not have Play Services
> installed). Putting Whatsapp in its own profile means it can't snoop on the
> other apps, contacts, etc on the phone.
>
> (Cross-profile notifications work but just say '<app> in <profile> sent a
> notification', so you have to go into quick-settings to switch profile to
> see what it was. That can be mildly annoying if you're in the habit of
> reading messages on the lockscreen)
>
> It's supported on Andy's Pixel 5a, just sayin' :-)
>
> Theo

It's a feature which seems unavailable on my Samsung phone, which is
annoying. Maybe it is hidden away somewhere.

Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2023 19:37:01 +0100 (BST), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >* They say VOIP and landlines aren't supported, but I suspect there may be
> > country-specific loopholes
>
> These are supported
>
> 0370 010 0444 BBC Radio 4
> 0330 123 0440 BBC Breakfast
> 0330 123 4346 BBC Today Programme

"Note: Landlines are only supported on the WhatsApp Business app."
https://faq.whatsapp.com/684051319521343/?helpref=hc_fnav&cms_platform=android

so perhaps they are deliberately blocked from regular users, rather than the
usual 'we don't guarantee this will work'.

Theo