Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034

In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>
>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034

I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism
being low quality.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>
> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
> really the biggest?

Name a bigger one then.

>Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism being low quality.

It looks like you can't find any errors in the journalism, so what is your
basis for complaining about the quality, other than it's outside your price
bracket?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> > In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
> > 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
> >> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
> >>
> >> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
> >> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
> >
> > I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
> > really the biggest?
>
> Name a bigger one then.

In terms of land area I would mention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Spadeadam
but that's stretching the definition of 'airport' by a very long way:
https://travelradar.aero/the-military-airport-whose-runway-public-road/
(they also have helipads which are in use)

In terms of airports with scheduled jet flights I can't think of one bigger
than Heathrow.

Theo

On 01 Dec 2023 13:04:45 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> > In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
>> > 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> >> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>> >>
>> >> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>> >> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>> >
>> > I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>> > really the biggest?
>>
>> Name a bigger one then.
>
>In terms of land area I would mention:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Spadeadam
>but that's stretching the definition of 'airport' by a very long way:
>https://travelradar.aero/the-military-airport-whose-runway-public-road/
>(they also have helipads which are in use)
>
>In terms of airports with scheduled jet flights I can't think of one bigger
>than Heathrow.

Yes, Heathrow is the biggest UK airport on just about every measure: flights, passengers, air freight (tonnes), staff,
revenues, airlines, terminals, gates, land area, active runways, runway lengths, terminals, car parks, motorway exits,
etc.

In only one respect is Gatwick sometimes ahead: the number of destinations served (a constantly fluctuating number). It
has a lot of holiday destinations with infrequent, seasonal services, whereas Heathrow's destinations are usually served
at least several times per week, all year round.

In message <LaiaN.27604$N8H9.3527@fx13.ams1>, at 10:02:19 on Fri, 1 Dec
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>
>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>> really the biggest?
>
>Name a bigger one then.

Hemmed in as it is by the surrounding roads and housing, I'm sure we
could find a bigger airport somewhere in the provinces.

Depending on whether you include the hangers, Stansted is at least as
big.

>>Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism being low quality.
>
>It looks like you can't find any errors in the journalism, so what is your
>basis for complaining about the quality, other than it's outside your price
>bracket?

Once again, you shoot yourself in the foot by assuming the more you pay,
the better the journalism.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 15:21:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <LaiaN.27604$N8H9.3527@fx13.ams1>, at 10:02:19 on Fri, 1 Dec
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>
>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>> really the biggest?
>>
>>Name a bigger one then.
>
>Hemmed in as it is by the surrounding roads and housing, I'm sure we
>could find a bigger airport somewhere in the provinces.
>
>Depending on whether you include the hangers, Stansted is at least as
>big.

No, it's much smaller.

>
>>>Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism being low quality.
>>
>>It looks like you can't find any errors in the journalism, so what is your
>>basis for complaining about the quality, other than it's outside your price
>>bracket?
>
>Once again, you shoot yourself in the foot by assuming the more you pay,
>the better the journalism.

And instead of thanking me for providing access without the paywall, you still carp and try to find errors where there
are none.

On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>
> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
> really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism
> being low quality.

Which one would you reckon is bigger?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034

>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>journalism being low quality.
>
>Which one would you reckon is bigger?

If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
later.

LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.

I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
I specified not to include the hangers).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 15:50:45 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>
>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>> really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism
>> being low quality.
>
>Which one would you reckon is bigger?

Roland though Stansted was bigger, but it's not.

I overlaid Stansted (slightly rotated to fit) on top of Heathrow
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53370627118/in/photostream/lightbox/>

It almost fits into the Heathrow footprint, with lots of the Heathrow footprint not covered. As a further clue, when
there was a plan to add a second runway to Stansted, it would have needed a lot more land than it currently occupies.

Of course, Stansted currently has plans for a much more modest extension, just to the terminal building (more shops!).

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>
>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>journalism being low quality.
>>
>>Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>
>If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>later.
>
>LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>
>I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>I specified not to include the hangers).

Stansted overlaid on Heathrow. The latter's footprint is much larger.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53370627118/in/photostream/lightbox/>

In message <a3vjmi5ohjl4quarfo0c6mk78pr4jjit8j@4ax.com>, at 15:35:41 on
Fri, 1 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 15:21:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <LaiaN.27604$N8H9.3527@fx13.ams1>, at 10:02:19 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30 Nov
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>>
>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>> really the biggest?
>>>
>>>Name a bigger one then.
>>
>>Hemmed in as it is by the surrounding roads and housing, I'm sure we
>>could find a bigger airport somewhere in the provinces.
>>
>>Depending on whether you include the hangers, Stansted is at least as
>>big.
>
>No, it's much smaller.

It'd be slightly more convincing if you actually quoted some numbers
(and gave the source and methodology).

>>>>Or perhaps another case of even paid-for journalism being low quality.
>>>
>>>It looks like you can't find any errors in the journalism, so what is your
>>>basis for complaining about the quality, other than it's outside your price
>>>bracket?
>>
>>Once again, you shoot yourself in the foot by assuming the more you pay,
>>the better the journalism.
>
>And instead of thanking me for providing access without the paywall,
>you still carp and try to find errors where there are none.

Whoosh!
--
Roland Perry

On 02/12/2023 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <a3vjmi5ohjl4quarfo0c6mk78pr4jjit8j@4ax.com>, at 15:35:41 on
> Fri, 1 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 15:21:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <LaiaN.27604$N8H9.3527@fx13.ams1>, at 10:02:19 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>>> Nov
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>>>
>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>> really the biggest?
>>>>
>>>> Name a bigger one then.
>>>
>>> Hemmed in as it is by the surrounding roads and housing, I'm sure we
>>> could find a bigger airport somewhere in the provinces.
>>>
>>> Depending on whether you include the hangers, Stansted is at least as
>>> big.
>>
>> No, it's much smaller.
>
> It'd be slightly more convincing if you actually quoted some numbers
> (and gave the source and methodology).
>

When you stated "I'm sure we could find a bigger airport somewhere in
the provinces" I took you to be using the Royal "we". Even if not, I
see nothing to stop you citing numbers, source etc.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 02/12/2023 14:14, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>> Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>
>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>> really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>> journalism being low quality.
>>>
>>> Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>>
>> If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>> rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>> later.
>>
>> LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>> yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>> Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>>
>> I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>> there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>> I specified not to include the hangers).
>
>

"The land within the airport’s boundaries is approximately 957 hectares
in extent."

Source: LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT Stansted Transformation Programme
Terminal Extension Design and Access Statement (July 2023)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64d0fc8ae5491a000d4b5941/Transport_Statement_-_checked.pdf

And you need to justify "not to include the hangers" - e.g. why would
any sane person not count land within the perimeter covered by a hanger
as part of the area of an airport?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 02/12/2023 14:14, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>>> Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>
>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>> really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>>> journalism being low quality.
>>>>
>>>> Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>>>
>>> If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>>> rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>>> later.
>>>
>>> LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>>> yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>>> Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>>>
>>> I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>>> there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>>> I specified not to include the hangers).
>>
>>
>
> "The land within the airport’s boundaries is approximately 957 hectares
> in extent."
>
> Source: LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT Stansted Transformation Programme
> Terminal Extension Design and Access Statement (July 2023)
>
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64d0fc8ae5491a000d4b5941/Transport_Statement_-_checked.pdf
>

Now that we've dealt with Roland's entirely spurious objection, I wonder if
it's worth returning to the original story? It seems odd that no British
funds choose to invest in Heathrow:

"The Saudis and Ardian, which sold its stake in Luton airport five years
ago, will become shareholders alongside the Qatar Investment Authority,
which has a 20 per cent stake, GIC, Singapore’s sovereign wealth fund, and
the Australian Retirement Trust, which both own 11.2 per cent."

>
> And you need to justify "not to include the hangers" - e.g. why would
> any sane person not count land within the perimeter covered by a hanger
> as part of the area of an airport?

I was waiting to see what other essential airport components Roland would
next arbitrarily choose to exclude. The control tower? The airport
hotels? Or perhaps every seventh car park space?

In message <3b13facd-e105-4af9-a1d8-e49b29e030e8@outlook.com>, at
23:27:32 on Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>On 02/12/2023 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <a3vjmi5ohjl4quarfo0c6mk78pr4jjit8j@4ax.com>, at 15:35:41
>>on Fri, 1 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 15:21:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <LaiaN.27604$N8H9.3527@fx13.ams1>, at 10:02:19 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu,
>>>>>>30 Nov
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>>> really the biggest?
>>>>>
>>>>> Name a bigger one then.
>>>>
>>>> Hemmed in as it is by the surrounding roads and housing, I'm sure we
>>>> could find a bigger airport somewhere in the provinces.
>>>>
>>>> Depending on whether you include the hangers, Stansted is at least as
>>>> big.
>>>
>>> No, it's much smaller.

>> It'd be slightly more convincing if you actually quoted some numbers
>>(and gave the source and methodology).
>
>When you stated "I'm sure we could find a bigger airport somewhere in
>the provinces" I took you to be using the Royal "we". Even if not, I
>see nothing to stop you citing numbers, source etc.

Indeed so, but as I've already explained, it will take some time for me
to do the necessary research to a satisfactory standard.

We have one quite promising submission, which is an overlay of the
alleged footprints of Stansted and Heathrow, but they need fact-checking
to see if they comparing like with like.

As an example, we need to whether establish as part of the methodology
which airport-owned staff, medium and short stay car parks should be
included; perhaps even peripheral hotels too. I already mentioned the
hangar areas at Heathrow.

We'd get different answers if just plotting the areas most of the public
associate with airports: Terminal buildings, apron and runways.
--
Roland Perry

In message <b971c79f-db2d-4e6f-a467-bcf5011ead85@outlook.com>, at
23:41:47 on Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>On 02/12/2023 14:14, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>>> Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>
>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>> really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>>> journalism being low quality.
>>>>
>>>> Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>>>
>>> If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>>> rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>>> later.
>>>
>>> LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>>> yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>>> Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>>>
>>> I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>>> there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>>> I specified not to include the hangers).
>>
>
>"The land within the airport’s boundaries is approximately 957
>hectares in extent."
>
>Source: LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT Stansted Transformation Programme
>Terminal Extension Design and Access Statement (July 2023)
>
>https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64d0fc8ae5491a000d4b5941/
>Transport_Statement_-_checked.pdf

At least that's towards the upper end of the varying stats I found.

>And you need to justify "not to include the hangers" - e.g. why would
>any sane person not count land within the perimeter covered by a hanger
>as part of the area of an airport?

See also other uses for land I described in a posting a few minutes ago.

Would you for example include any of the rail corridors (and if so,
stretching how far away from the terminal buildings) after all they only
exist to serve the airport, just as the hangers only exist to service
the planes (and not the passengers directly).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <b971c79f-db2d-4e6f-a467-bcf5011ead85@outlook.com>, at
> 23:41:47 on Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>> On 02/12/2023 14:14, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>>>> Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>>
>>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>>> really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>>>> journalism being low quality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>>>>
>>>> If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>>>> rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>>>> yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>>>> Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>>>>
>>>> I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>>>> there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>>>> I specified not to include the hangers).
>>>
>>
>> "The land within the airport’s boundaries is approximately 957
>> hectares in extent."
>>
>> Source: LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT Stansted Transformation Programme
>> Terminal Extension Design and Access Statement (July 2023)
>>
>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64d0fc8ae5491a000d4b5941/
>> Transport_Statement_-_checked.pdf
>
> At least that's towards the upper end of the varying stats I found.
>
>> And you need to justify "not to include the hangers" - e.g. why would
>> any sane person not count land within the perimeter covered by a hanger
>> as part of the area of an airport?
>
> See also other uses for land I described in a posting a few minutes ago.

Airports have an official footprint, clearly shown in Google Maps (and
which corresponds with that shown in that official planning document).
There may be hotels and car parks inside it, and others outside it. But
hangers will definitely be part of the airport area.

Note that the airport may also own other land or properties in the vicinity
that are not part of the airport area.

>
> Would you for example include any of the rail corridors (and if so,
> stretching how far away from the terminal buildings) after all they only
> exist to serve the airport, just as the hangers only exist to service
> the planes (and not the passengers directly).

Google Maps indicates the airport footprint in grey. In Gatwick's case, the
Brighton main line and the A23 pass through the official airport area on
the surface. Those transport corridors serve the airport, but don't exist
only for that purpose.

In message <QjQaN.1611$4cG4.759@fx11.ams1>, at 00:53:04 on Sun, 3 Dec
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>Now that we've dealt with Roland's entirely spurious objection,

You hardly started. Only looked at one alternative airport for example,
and that not conclusively yet.

>>
>> And you need to justify "not to include the hangers" - e.g. why would
>> any sane person not count land within the perimeter covered by a hanger
>> as part of the area of an airport?
>
>I was waiting to see what other essential airport components Roland would
>next arbitrarily choose to exclude. The control tower? The airport
>hotels?

Already mentioned. Should they be included or not. And just the ones
immediately next to the terminals, or others like those on the north
side of Bath Road?

>Or perhaps every seventh car park space?

Now you are just being silly. But I did ask about things like long term
carparks and I await you comment on those.

The T2/3 Long Stay car park is outside the eastern perimeter road, for
example.
--
Roland Perry

In message <dsemmiprd5vam2d5tt5n8gqi8fgq8a9dkt@4ax.com>, at 14:14:43 on
Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>>Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>
>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>>journalism being low quality.
>>>
>>>Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>>
>>If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>>rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>>later.
>>
>>LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>>yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>>Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>>
>>I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>>there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>>I specified not to include the hangers).
>
>Stansted overlaid on Heathrow. The latter's footprint is much larger.
><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53370627118/in/photostream/lightbox/>

FSVO of "much", you are clutching at straws there.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 06:38:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <3b13facd-e105-4af9-a1d8-e49b29e030e8@outlook.com>, at
>23:27:32 on Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> remarked:
>>On 02/12/2023 14:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <a3vjmi5ohjl4quarfo0c6mk78pr4jjit8j@4ax.com>, at 15:35:41
>>>on Fri, 1 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 15:21:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <LaiaN.27604$N8H9.3527@fx13.ams1>, at 10:02:19 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu,
>>>>>>>30 Nov
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>>>> really the biggest?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Name a bigger one then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hemmed in as it is by the surrounding roads and housing, I'm sure we
>>>>> could find a bigger airport somewhere in the provinces.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depending on whether you include the hangers, Stansted is at least as
>>>>> big.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's much smaller.
>
>>> It'd be slightly more convincing if you actually quoted some numbers
>>>(and gave the source and methodology).
>>
>>When you stated "I'm sure we could find a bigger airport somewhere in
>>the provinces" I took you to be using the Royal "we". Even if not, I
>>see nothing to stop you citing numbers, source etc.
>
>Indeed so, but as I've already explained, it will take some time for me
>to do the necessary research to a satisfactory standard.
>
>We have one quite promising submission, which is an overlay of the
>alleged footprints of Stansted and Heathrow, but they need fact-checking
>to see if they comparing like with like.
>
>As an example, we need to whether establish as part of the methodology
>which airport-owned staff, medium and short stay car parks should be
>included; perhaps even peripheral hotels too. I already mentioned the
>hangar areas at Heathrow.
>
>We'd get different answers if just plotting the areas most of the public
>associate with airports: Terminal buildings, apron and runways.

Just use the official figures. Don't try and invent your own definition.

I don't know what you're trying to prove. The official figures say that Heathrow's official area is 28% larger than
Stansted's. If you wanted to create some other unofficial definition if your own, the gap would be larger still, as
there are a number of airport-related businesses (eg, at least 20 airport hotels just outside the boundary, but only
three inside it) just outside the Heathrow airport area, and therefore not included, but most of the Stansted businesses
are inside the airport area (eg, three airport hotels, but only another three outside). So, in reality, the effective
Heathrow area is at least 50% larger than Stansted.

In any case, there was never any doubt that Heathrow was the UK's largest airport, so I don't understand the point of
this subthread. A more interesting question is which UK airport comes second, as the answer isn't as clear-cut.

On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 13:02:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <QjQaN.1611$4cG4.759@fx11.ams1>, at 00:53:04 on Sun, 3 Dec
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>Now that we've dealt with Roland's entirely spurious objection,
>
>You hardly started. Only looked at one alternative airport for example,
>and that not conclusively yet.

There never was a question.

>
>>>
>>> And you need to justify "not to include the hangers" - e.g. why would
>>> any sane person not count land within the perimeter covered by a hanger
>>> as part of the area of an airport?
>>
>>I was waiting to see what other essential airport components Roland would
>>next arbitrarily choose to exclude. The control tower? The airport
>>hotels?
>
>Already mentioned. Should they be included or not. And just the ones
>immediately next to the terminals, or others like those on the north
>side of Bath Road?

Why are you so keen to invent your own definition, rather than using the official one? Presumably you hope it'll prove
you 'right'? It's actually having the opposite effect, as by any unofficial definition, Heathrow's margin over Stansted
is even larger than the official one.

>
>>Or perhaps every seventh car park space?
>
>Now you are just being silly.

As an illustration of your foolish quest.

> But I did ask about things like long term
>carparks and I await you comment on those.
>
>The T2/3 Long Stay car park is outside the eastern perimeter road, for
>example.

It's inside the official airport area, as are all the official car parks in all the airports. But there are a number of
other car parks serving Heathrow outside the official airport area. Not so with little Stansted.

On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 13:03:56 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <dsemmiprd5vam2d5tt5n8gqi8fgq8a9dkt@4ax.com>, at 14:14:43 on
>Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 13:58:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ukcvcl$1tr0b$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:50:45 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On 01/12/2023 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <Q0Z9N.12461$vz%.9173@fx12.ams1>, at 09:58:08 on Thu, 30
>>>>>Nov 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Saudis buy stake in Heathrow as Spain’s Ferrovial sells up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9f8f0501-2335-423b-a731-8999b3588279?
>>>>>> shareToken=9304240b99d553a03527c46e1c384034
>>>
>>>>> I could believe Heathrow is the country's busiest airport, but is it
>>>>>really the biggest? Or perhaps another case of even paid-for
>>>>>journalism being low quality.
>>>>
>>>>Which one would you reckon is bigger?
>>>
>>>If I knew that yesterday, I'd have said which. More research required,
>>>rather than just a hunch. I'll be looking at various airports' acreage
>>>later.
>>>
>>>LHR is maybe 1,227ha, just as a starting point. Unfortunately I haven't
>>>yet found any other candidates where Wonkypedia has a figure published.
>>>Crowd sourcing, eh? Can't get the staff.
>>>
>>>I've found three wildly different numbers for Stansted, and of course
>>>there's no guarantee the one for Heathrow is appropriate (especially as
>>>I specified not to include the hangers).
>>
>>Stansted overlaid on Heathrow. The latter's footprint is much larger.
>><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/53370627118/in/photostream/lightbox/>
>
>FSVO of "much", you are clutching at straws there.

28% larger

In message <cgvomilk8o9pt58suu4nko8jl8gbnnmsl8@4ax.com>, at 13:28:51 on
Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>When you stated "I'm sure we could find a bigger airport somewhere in
>>>the provinces" I took you to be using the Royal "we". Even if not, I
>>>see nothing to stop you citing numbers, source etc.
>>
>>Indeed so, but as I've already explained, it will take some time for me
>>to do the necessary research to a satisfactory standard.
>>
>>We have one quite promising submission, which is an overlay of the
>>alleged footprints of Stansted and Heathrow, but they need fact-checking
>>to see if they comparing like with like.
>>
>>As an example, we need to whether establish as part of the methodology
>>which airport-owned staff, medium and short stay car parks should be
>>included; perhaps even peripheral hotels too. I already mentioned the
>>hangar areas at Heathrow.
>>
>>We'd get different answers if just plotting the areas most of the public
>>associate with airports: Terminal buildings, apron and runways.
>
>Just use the official figures. Don't try and invent your own definition.

Because official figures are always based on perfect criteria?

Do you even know the original journalist wasn't just making up *his*
definition?
--
Roland Perry

In message <9m0pmi1aog0tb1qotp5cojkir3p6vf6lgg@4ax.com>, at 13:37:48 on
Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>I did ask about things like long term carparks and I await you comment
>>on those.
>>
>>The T2/3 Long Stay car park is outside the eastern perimeter road, for
>>example.
>
>It's inside the official airport area, as are all the official car parks in all the airports. But there are a number of
>other car parks serving Heathrow outside the official airport area.

Are there "other" car parks inside the official area. Are you taking
into account just public car parks, or perhaps also the staff car parks
etc.

>Not so with little Stansted.

A number of the hotels have private car parks. And there are reportedly
car parks operated by at least Ace, Bubble, My MCL, Maple and Jetparks
(in addition to the 'Official' "London Stansted Airport").
--
Roland Perry