Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.
>
> But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...
>
>

Just think how VM currently serve their network. Ignoring the coax local
loop, the rest is fibre and goes back to roughly one “exchange” building
per city. Certainly nothing like the huge number of exchange buildings that
OR currently need.

On 26/04/2023 18:19, Tweed wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.
>> But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...
>>
>>
> Just think how VM currently serve their network. Ignoring the coax local
> loop, the rest is fibre and goes back to roughly one “exchange” building
> per city. Certainly nothing like the huge number of exchange buildings that
> OR currently need.
>
I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
aware of any building in Basingstoke.

By the way, a pot hole has opened up in the middle our road, and proudly
sitting there just 40mm below the road surface is a green Virgin fibre
tube, hardly worth digging a trench at all. Useless useless useless
company.

Mark Carver wrote:

> I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
> aware of any building in Basingstoke.

Their network map claims two PoP sites in Basingstoke

<https://www.virginmediabusiness.co.uk/pdf/Products/VMB-Wholesale/Virgin-Media-Business-Wholesale-interactive-network-map.pdf>

Not sure how small those can be? The one listed for leicester consists
of a few industrial units, you'd only notice it from the VMO2 vans outside.

On 27/04/2023 11:23, Andy Burns wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm
>> not aware of any building in Basingstoke.
>
> Their network map claims two PoP sites in Basingstoke
>
> <https://www.virginmediabusiness.co.uk/pdf/Products/VMB-Wholesale/Virgin-Media-Business-Wholesale-interactive-network-map.pdf>
>
>
> Not sure how small those can be?  The one listed for leicester
> consists of a few industrial units, you'd only notice it from the VMO2
> vans outside.
>
They're probably located in unlocked wooden garden sheds, I can't ever
recall seeing a concentration anywhere of Virgin vans. Too busy out
continuously wrapping Selotape around their street cabinet doors

Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
> aware of any building in Basingstoke.

Wasn't VM (or rather ntl) HQ in Basingstoke at one time?

(a vague memory of 'Bartley Wood Business Park' which it seems is in Hook,
but I think they wrote Basingstoke in the address)

Theo

On 27/04/2023 14:06, Theo wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I think the VM network here in Basingstoke, is fed from Reading. I'm not
>> aware of any building in Basingstoke.
> Wasn't VM (or rather ntl) HQ in Basingstoke at one time?
>
> (a vague memory of 'Bartley Wood Business Park' which it seems is in Hook,
> but I think they wrote Basingstoke in the address)
>
NTL do indeed have an admin centre (there's nothing 'technical' there as
far as I know) in Hook

Never claim in front of a Hook resident that's it's associated with
Basingstoke !  It's its own Post Town now anyway.

The cable network NTL inherited was TeleCentrial, who were (locally)
based in Reading. They extended into Basingstoke around the time they
were absorbed into NTL I seem to recall.
The fibres are buried under the A33 between Reading and Basingstoke.
There were months of roadworks and delays while it was happening. Pre
Covid the entire population of one town seemed to commute to the other !

On Wednesday, 26 April 2023 at 13:42:55 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
SNIPPED bit reinstated: -
"
> FTTP goes from the customer premises directly to a fibre centre -
> possibly via optical concentrators (not sure it that's the correct word)
> - and the fibres can go a significant distance - tens of km (unlike the
> copper pairs for FTTC, ADSL, or even voice)."

> > even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.
> But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...

Indeed, but NOT if every fibre goes from subscriber to exchange. I.E. there would have to be optical concentrators. Fortuitously BT has erected cabinets with fibre connections to the main exchange all around the area. The current FTTC to fibre concentrators in them would simply be swapped out for FTTP to fibre concentrators and arguably in time the exchange could be similarly replaced.

On 29 Apr 2023 03:42, "notya...@gmail.com" wrote:
> On Wednesday, 26 April 2023 at 13:42:55 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
>> notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
> SNIPPED bit reinstated: -
> "
>> FTTP goes from the customer premises directly to a fibre centre -
>> possibly via optical concentrators (not sure it that's the correct word)
>> - and the fibres can go a significant distance - tens of km (unlike the
>> copper pairs for FTTC, ADSL, or even voice)."
>
>> > even at one tiny fibre per connection, they would cram out the ducts and then some.
>> But it's numerous connections per wavelength, per fibre ...
>
> Indeed, but NOT if every fibre goes from subscriber to exchange. I.E. there would have to be optical concentrators. Fortuitously BT has erected cabinets with fibre connections to the main exchange all around the area. The current FTTC to fibre concentrators in them would simply be swapped out for FTTP to fibre concentrators and arguably in time the exchange
could be similarly replaced.
>

Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.

There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
than exchanges

Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
> Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
> cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
> it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
> splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.
>
> There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
> than exchanges

The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway. They get vandalised, driven
into, etc. The splitters are roughly the size of a loaf of bread and can
fit down a manhole out of the way. They just open the manhole and fish them
out when they need to work on them.

Theo

On Saturday, 29 April 2023 at 18:57:45 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <n...@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
> > Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
> > cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
> > it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
> > splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.
> >
> > There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
> > than exchanges
> The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway. They get vandalised, driven
> into, etc. The splitters are roughly the size of a loaf of bread and can
> fit down a manhole out of the way. They just open the manhole and fish them
> out when they need to work on them.
>
> Theo

True about cabinets, Virgin ones are worse, one near me leaked gas and another had its back left open in the rain for months after an engineer visit.

Anyway a little Google better informed me that BT's Connectorised Block Terminal (CBT) is small enough to go up the top of a pole.

Not quite sure how they will split it without power unless they send all messages to every modem and let the modem filter out the messages for that termination.

Theo wrote:

> The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.

When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.

The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
there's almost nothing in them.

> They get vandalised, driven into, etc.
There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.

On Mon 01/05/2023 11:43, Andy Burns wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
>> The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.
>
> When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
> nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.
>
> The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
> there's almost nothing in them.
>
>> They get vandalised, driven into, etc.
> There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
> park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
> 'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.
>

Reporting number for VM street cab issues 24/7

0330 333 0444

notya...@gmail.com <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 29 April 2023 at 18:57:45 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <n...@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>> Er. No. The FTTP infrastructure is typically bypassing the FTTC
>>> cabinets - they don't need power for PON (the P is important, here) and
>>> it isn't so much concentrators heading back to the exchange but
>>> splitters (PON here) to split for distribution.
>>>
>>> There will be Openreach Handover Points but there will be many fewer
>>> than exchanges
>> The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway. They get vandalised, driven
>> into, etc. The splitters are roughly the size of a loaf of bread and can
>> fit down a manhole out of the way. They just open the manhole and fish them
>> out when they need to work on them.
>>
>> Theo
>
> True about cabinets, Virgin ones are worse, one near me leaked gas and
> another had its back left open in the rain for months after an engineer visit.
>
> Anyway a little Google better informed me that BT's Connectorised Block
> Terminal (CBT) is small enough to go up the top of a pole.
>
> Not quite sure how they will split it without power unless they send all
> messages to every modem and let the modem filter out the messages for that termination.
>

That’s exactly how it’s done. Every customer on the same segment sees the
same light. However the data streams are encrypted and the endpoint
equipment has a key that can only decrypt the data intended for that
property.

Tweed wrote:

[snip]

> That’s exactly how it’s done. Every customer on the same segment sees the
> same light. However the data streams are encrypted and the endpoint
> equipment has a key that can only decrypt the data intended for that
> property.
>

Does that mean that the modem can receive two (or more) data streams,
one for broadband and another for "Digital Voice" or however your phone
service provider will deliver voice calls?

--
Graham J

Graham J wrote:

> Does that mean that the modem can receive two (or more) data streams,
> one for broadband and another for "Digital Voice" or however your phone
> service provider will deliver voice calls?

Well ...

You know how ADSL with PPPoA can support multiple VC/VP, yet openreach
don't do that?

And VDSL with PPPoE can support multiple VLANs, yet openreach don't do
that (except maybe for TV multicast)?

What openreach do have is a 4 port ONT that supports multiple routers
connecting to a single fibre into the building

<https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/01/a-look-at-openreachs-future-4-port-ont-for-fttp-broadband.html>

On Monday, 1 May 2023 at 12:39:56 UTC+1, Woody wrote:
> On Mon 01/05/2023 11:43, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Theo wrote:
> >
> >> The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.
> >
> > When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
> > nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.
> >
> > The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
> > there's almost nothing in them.
> >
> >> They get vandalised, driven into, etc.
> > There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
> > park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
> > 'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.
> >
> Reporting number for VM street cab issues 24/7
>
> 0330 333 0444

Good luck with that - I reported the one with the doors open twice and SFA as a result.

On Tue 02/05/2023 11:41, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 1 May 2023 at 12:39:56 UTC+1, Woody wrote:
>> On Mon 01/05/2023 11:43, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Theo wrote:
>>>
>>>> The cabinets are a maintenance headache anyway.
>>>
>>> When we had ADSL there was 'always' a BT van in the street, or at the
>>> nearby cabinet, since VDSL the vans are a rare sight.
>>>
>>> The virgin fibre cabinets here are small and don't get vandalised as
>>> there's almost nothing in them.
>>>
>>>> They get vandalised, driven into, etc.
>>> There is a virgin coax cabinet in the corner of a local toolstation car
>>> park that's constantly getting rammed and wrapped in gaffer tape to
>>> 'repair' it, others seem to live under permanent canvas hoods.
>>>
>> Reporting number for VM street cab issues 24/7
>>
>> 0330 333 0444
>
> Good luck with that - I reported the one with the doors open twice and SFA as a result.

I didn't say they would do anything about it, I was just trying to be
helpful to our readers.....

On 4/24/23 17:35, Jason H wrote:
> I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
> little bit of old Trafford.  Today, a bit of paper pops through the
> letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
> provide fibre broadband service.  Two hours later, the only way to leave
> the house is out back...
>
> Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
> is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does not
> partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?

Thanks for some of the quite enlightening replies to this one. Now, the
street has been dug up and the cabling (or at least the pipe that the
cabling will go along) has been laid. We've had a flyer through the
letterbox explaining the pricing. It looks good. Had I not just
teleported myself back to the 90s, I'd put a picture here 8-).

So, 9.99 for the first six months; 19.99 for the "remaining" nine
months. So, a fairly short contract. I was a little bit tempted to try
it as a backup to BT but backed off from that since Openreach now says
they plan FTTP for the area. Besides, in the land of 4K, 80 down is a
certain point of sufficiency.

On Mon 15/05/2023 13:00, Jason H wrote:
> On 4/24/23 17:35, Jason H wrote:
>> I've long held that Hell would freeze over before FTTP came to our
>> little bit of old Trafford.  Today, a bit of paper pops through the
>> letterbox from Grain, telling us they are digging up the street to
>> provide fibre broadband service.  Two hours later, the only way to
>> leave the house is out back...
>>
>> Now, I'm with BT.  Does this mean a full fibre upgrade (currency FTTC)
>> is on the cards, or are Grain a completely separate thing that does
>> not partner with BT/OpenReach in any way?
>
> Thanks for some of the quite enlightening replies to this one.  Now, the
> street has been dug up and the cabling (or at least the pipe that the
> cabling will go along) has been laid.  We've had a flyer through the
> letterbox explaining the pricing.  It looks good.  Had I not just
> teleported myself back to the 90s, I'd put a picture here 8-).
>
> So, 9.99 for the first six months; 19.99 for the "remaining" nine
> months.  So, a fairly short contract.  I was a little bit tempted to try
> it as a backup to BT but backed off from that since Openreach now says
> they plan FTTP for the area.  Besides, in the land of 4K, 80 down is a
> certain point of sufficiency.

That doesn't add up - a 15 month contract? They usually come in 12, 18,
or 24 month blocks.
What speed are you getting for that, up and down? At that price I would
guess it is not full fibre speeds (such as 150Mb both ways) and will be
contended, so will you get any benefit from it?
Also do remember that these companies are only providing a broadband
service, most of them are NOT providing mail so unless you are already
using Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo or the like you will have to make other
arrangements for mail handling - probably at a cost.

On 16/05/2023 10:45, Jason H wrote:

> Good question.  Download speeds of 100, 300, 500 and 900MB are on offer.
>  Upload speeds are, strangely, not mentioned. I guess that means upload
> is going to be pretty rubbish.
>
Looking on the Grain website it seems all their packages are symmetric.

On 5/20/23 17:17, Phil wrote:
> On 16/05/2023 10:45, Jason H wrote:
>
>> Good question.  Download speeds of 100, 300, 500 and 900MB are on
>> offer.   Upload speeds are, strangely, not mentioned. I guess that
>> means upload is going to be pretty rubbish.
>>
> Looking on the Grain website it seems all their packages are symmetric.
>

Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
contract with BT. Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle with
a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam. Also,
occasionally uploading big things is part of the job. 100 down/up would
be perfect for me.

On 28/05/2023 18:12, Jason H wrote:
> Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
> contract with BT.  Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle with
> a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam.  Also,
> occasionally uploading big things is part of the job.  100 down/up would
> be perfect for me.

The only things that put me off about them are you don't get your own
public IPv4 address. It's shared with other customers (CGNAT) and they
don't offer IPv6. Also they won't let you use your own router.

The packages/pricing are very tempting though.

Phil wrote:
> On 28/05/2023 18:12, Jason H wrote:
>> Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
>> contract with BT.  Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle
>> with a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam.  Also,
>> occasionally uploading big things is part of the job.  100 down/up
>> would be perfect for me.
>
> The only things that put me off about them are you don't get your own
> public IPv4 address. It's shared with other customers (CGNAT) and they
> don't offer IPv6. Also they won't let you use your own router.
>
> The packages/pricing are very tempting though.

I've known CGNAT IP addresses get blacklisted by email hosting companies
because one user has sent spam - so you might be stuck with a free email
facility such as gmail.

--
Graham J

On 30/05/2023 08:58, Graham J wrote:
> Phil wrote:
>> On 28/05/2023 18:12, Jason H wrote:
>>> Now that's going to be tempting when I get towards the end of my
>>> contract with BT.  Sufficient as existing FTTC is, it may struggle
>>> with a 4k video call - one of the reasons I bought a HD webcam.
>>> Also, occasionally uploading big things is part of the job.  100
>>> down/up would be perfect for me.
>>
>> The only things that put me off about them are you don't get your own
>> public IPv4 address. It's shared with other customers (CGNAT) and they
>> don't offer IPv6. Also they won't let you use your own router.
>>
>> The packages/pricing are very tempting though.
>
> I've known CGNAT IP addresses get blacklisted by email hosting companies
> because one user has sent spam - so you might be stuck with a free email
> facility such as gmail.
>
>
Yes, that would worry me. Also getting IP blacklisted from a website,
discussion forum etc.