Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
going live.

Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.

I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not
expect to sit.

On 17/09/2023 08:26, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
> going live.
>
> Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
> copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
>
> I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
> especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

Reminiscent of TV Digital Switch Over when salesmen were going around
telling people that broadcast TV was being switched off and they had to
move to SKY.

Sales people will say anything to get their commission.

Am 17.09.2023 um 07:26:25 Uhr schrieb Jeff Gaines:

> Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
> copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.

If you have a contract for a service over copper, this contract must be
canceled by the company to do so.
Did they cancel it or announced they will do?

Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
> going live.
>
> Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
> now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
>
> I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
> especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?
>

I know of no circumstance where BT/Open Reach have abandoned their
infrastructure because a competing provider has set up in an area.

Jeff Gaines wrote:

> Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
> going live.
>
> Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
> copper now the village has fibre

BT will only 'turn off' copper when their *own* fibre goes live.

On 17/09/2023 in message <kmnuj5FihktU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
wrote:

>Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>>Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
>>going live.
>>
>>Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
>>copper now the village has fibre
>
>BT will only 'turn off' copper when their own fibre goes live.

Many thanks for all the replies :-)

Very sad when salesmen have to resort to tricks like this.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation

Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is
> gradually going live.
>
> Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the
> copper now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
>
> I know copper will disappear eventually but will BT just turn it off
> especially since they don't have a fibre offering of their own?

Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?
--
Heard messages are sweet but those Unheard are sweeter.
FN 2�22+. Mungo Brandybuck of Buckland..
flyingnun@roseofwhite.plus.com

On 17/09/2023 in message <kmo55sFjj6lU1@mid.individual.net> Flyiñg Ñuñ
2°22+ wrote:

>Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?

Hi FN :-)

OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a bunch
of oldies on a retirement development!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Did you know on the Canary Islands there is not one canary?
And on the Virgin Islands same thing, not one canary.

On 17 Sep 2023 07:26:25 GMT, "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:

>
>Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
>going live.
>
>Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
>now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
>
Giganet have been coming round here, in a City Fibre area, saying that
residents have been complaining about their WiFi speeds, and therefore
they need better broadband. They don't like it when I point out that
WiFi speed is a factor of the router and not the broadband.
Three of them have been here to date and one of them tried to tell me
that my City Fibre connection was delivered over copper.

On 17/09/2023 16:56, Peter Johnson wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2023 07:26:25 GMT, "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Giganet have installed fibre throughout the village and it is gradually
>> going live.
>>
>> Their door to door sales people are saying that BT will turn of the copper
>> now the village has fibre so people need to sign up for it.
>>
> Giganet have been coming round here, in a City Fibre area, saying that
> residents have been complaining about their WiFi speeds, and therefore
> they need better broadband. They don't like it when I point out that
> WiFi speed is a factor of the router and not the broadband.
> Three of them have been here to date and one of them tried to tell me
> that my City Fibre connection was delivered over copper.
>
This thread seems to be yet another example of confusing copper and
analogue.

BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Jeff Gaines wrote:

[snip]

>
> Very sad when salesmen have to resort to tricks like this.
>

A salesman by definition lies. Now it's also true of politicians.

--
Graham J

MikeS wrote:

[snip]

>
> BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
> service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
> with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
> of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.

Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
day taking a minute to do so each time. VDSL is better if the green
cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and
you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync still takes
about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

I've noticed that FTTP is being rolled out in populated rural areas
where copper broadband is unreliable. In less populated areas where
copper broadband is effectively not available there's no evidence of
fibre being installed.

But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
4 consumer program.

--
Graham J

On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:00:52 +0100, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk>
wrote:

>But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
>by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
>because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
>4 consumer program.

Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
even kept my old landline phone number.

Rod.

Am 17.09.2023 um 19:00:52 Uhr schrieb Graham J:

> Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
> Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times
> per day taking a minute to do so each time.

ADSL can use up to 8 MBit/s in downstream and ADSL2+ up to 24 if the
DSLAM supports it and the cable isn't too long.
In Germany, many rural households only get 2MBit/s and have to use VoIP
- all carriers (except some very small) have stopped providing POTS or
ISDN. It works if QoS is enabled, so the voice traffic has priority for
upload.

> VDSL is better if the green cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than
> that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync
> still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

ADSL and VDSL can be synchron for months and the PPP connection can
also be established for that time - without a problem.

The problem are ISP that intentionally disconnect it to annoy the
customers and make some people paying money for not doing that.

I have VDSL without intentional disconnects, with static IPv4 and a
static /48 IPv6 net.
VoIP works fine.

Roderick Stewart wrote:

> Graham J wrote:
>
>> But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
>> by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster
>
> Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
> perfectly.

Likewise here with FTTC.

Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:00:52 +0100, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> But in towns where FTTC (i.e. VDSL) is in use then VoIP may be supplied
>> by 2025 as threatened by Openreach. It will be a disaster, mainly
>> because the public has not been properly informed. Listen to any Radio
>> 4 consumer program.
>
> Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
> perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
> overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
> the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I
> even kept my old landline phone number.

Equally I have FTTP and VoIP but in my case I use a 3rd party VoIP
service so I can keep my router rather than using the one offered by my
ISP for their "Digital Voice" service. I also have a small UPS to
support the ONT, router, and VoIP base-station, si I can tolerate short
term mains power failures (common in rural areas).

But the fact that you and I have it working doesn't alter that fact that
many people have struggled.

--
Graham J

Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 17.09.2023 um 19:00:52 Uhr schrieb Graham J:
>
>> Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
>> Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times
>> per day taking a minute to do so each time.
>
> ADSL can use up to 8 MBit/s in downstream and ADSL2+ up to 24 if the
> DSLAM supports it and the cable isn't too long.
> In Germany, many rural households only get 2MBit/s and have to use VoIP
> - all carriers (except some very small) have stopped providing POTS or
> ISDN. It works if QoS is enabled, so the voice traffic has priority for
> upload.

QoS doesn't help if the line loses sync. Sadly, rural ADSL is very
susceptible to all sorts of interference, and this is what causes the
re-sync. For emails and web browsing it's just about tolerable, but
it's no good for VoIP.

>> VDSL is better if the green cabinet is less than about 100 metres
>> away, but further than
>> that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync
>> still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!
>
> ADSL and VDSL can be synchron for months and the PPP connection can
> also be established for that time - without a problem.

This is very rare. I have monitored about 20 customers with a mix of
ADSL and VDSL and those in rural locations see re-syncs every few days
at almost any time of day. City centre customers see a more reliable
service and the failures here are PPP disconnections and reconnections
rather than the modem re-synchronising.

My own FTTP service has dropped its PPP connection 4 times since being
installed on 6 March this year. The breaks lasted from 2 seconds to 11
seconds. My log shows the breaks starting as follows:

<158>Apr 13 15:47:25 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
<158>May 31 08:46:28 V2860n: PPP Closed : Remote Terminating (PPPoE)
<158>Jun 30 21:39:10 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
<158>Aug 23 17:51:09 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)

Probably an ongoing VoIP call would have tolerated the 2-second break.

[snip]

--
Graham J

On 18/09/2023 06:08, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Why will it be a disaster? I've got FTTP and VOIP and everything works
> perfectly. It only took the engineer about an hour to replace the
> overhead cable with the fibre. I didn't have to do anything special to
> the phone. I just plugged it into the router instead of the wall. I even
> kept my old landline phone number.

Many areas have no overhead lines, none anywhere near my house.

I have no idea where the cable runs but probably under my drive which
would need digging up then resurfacing along with the pavement. The
cable then must come up under house so the wall would have to be drilled.

Am 18.09.2023 um 08:30:27 Uhr schrieb Graham J:

> Marco Moock wrote:
> > Am 17.09.2023 um 19:00:52 Uhr schrieb Graham J:
> >
> >> Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
> >> Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several
> >> times per day taking a minute to do so each time.
> >
> > ADSL can use up to 8 MBit/s in downstream and ADSL2+ up to 24 if the
> > DSLAM supports it and the cable isn't too long.
> > In Germany, many rural households only get 2MBit/s and have to use
> > VoIP
> > - all carriers (except some very small) have stopped providing POTS
> > or ISDN. It works if QoS is enabled, so the voice traffic has
> > priority for upload.
>
> QoS doesn't help if the line loses sync. Sadly, rural ADSL is very
> susceptible to all sorts of interference, and this is what causes the
> re-sync. For emails and web browsing it's just about tolerable, but
> it's no good for VoIP.

We had ADSL for years and not such problems, but the lines are buried
and not in the air.

> >> VDSL is better if the green cabinet is less than about 100 metres
> >> away, but further than
> >> that and you get poor speeds and variable reliability. A re-sync
> >> still takes about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!
> >
> > ADSL and VDSL can be synchron for months and the PPP connection can
> > also be established for that time - without a problem.
>
> This is very rare. I have monitored about 20 customers with a mix of
> ADSL and VDSL and those in rural locations see re-syncs every few
> days at almost any time of day. City centre customers see a more
> reliable service and the failures here are PPP disconnections and
> reconnections rather than the modem re-synchronising.

Then this isn't DSL, it is PPP and many ISP intentionally disconnect
PPP after some days. There is no technical reason to do so.

> My own FTTP service has dropped its PPP connection 4 times since
> being installed on 6 March this year. The breaks lasted from 2
> seconds to 11 seconds. My log shows the breaks starting as follows:
>
> <158>Apr 13 15:47:25 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
> <158>May 31 08:46:28 V2860n: PPP Closed : Remote Terminating (PPPoE)
> <158>Jun 30 21:39:10 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
> <158>Aug 23 17:51:09 V2860n: PPP Closed : No Echo Response (PPPoE)
>
> Probably an ongoing VoIP call would have tolerated the 2-second break.

Then tell that your ISP and request to no intentionally terminate the
PPP session.
There is no technical reason to do so. Ask them for the technical
reason if they tell you that it is normal to disconnect it.

And yes I know, there are many nasty ISPs on the market that love to
annoy private customers.

On 17/09/2023 19:00, Graham J wrote:
> MikeS wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
>> service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
>> with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection. Most
>> of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.
>
> Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
> Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
> day taking a minute to do so each time.  VDSL is better if the green
> cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and you
> get poor speeds and variable reliability.  A re-sync still takes about a
> minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!

I'm over 800m from my green cabinet, and get 40Mbps down, 8Mbps up.
I've not experiences any resyncs, and can't spot any in the router PPP log
going back to April (A few power failures since then though).

I've only had BT digital voice for 3 weeks, but no problems there.

Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 in message <kmo55sFjj6lU1@mid.individual.net> Flyi�g �u�
> 2�22+ wrote:
>
>> Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?
>
> Hi FN :-)
>
> OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a
> bunch of oldies on a retirement development!

Hope the move works out for you OK then. What are new neighbours like?
--
Heard messages are sweet but those Unheard are sweeter.
FN 2�22+. Mungo Brandybuck of Buckland..
flyingnun@roseofwhite.plus.com

On 18/09/2023 in message <kmqo00F1osgU1@mid.individual.net> Flyiñg Ñuñ
2°22+ wrote:

>Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>On 17/09/2023 in message <kmo55sFjj6lU1@mid.individual.net> Flyiñg Ñuñ
>>2°22+ wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?
>>
>>Hi FN :-)
>>
>>OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a
>>bunch of oldies on a retirement development!
>
>Hope the move works out for you OK then. What are new neighbours like?

Only have them on side and seem very nice.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name.
It was a right bugger to get him back when he ran off.

Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 18/09/2023 in message <kmqo00F1osgU1@mid.individual.net> Flyi�g �u�
> 2�22+ wrote:
>
>> Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 17/09/2023 in message <kmo55sFjj6lU1@mid.individual.net> Flyi�g
>>> �u� 2�22+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jeff!! How you doing these days?
>>>
>>> Hi FN :-)
>>>
>>> OK, moved back to near the New Forest, couldn't stand living with a
>>> bunch of oldies on a retirement development!
>>
>> Hope the move works out for you OK then. What are new neighbours
>> like?
>
> Only have them on side and seem very nice.

Don't get too lonely then!! Not like UPS and the caf�. :(
--
Heard messages are sweet but those Unheard are sweeter.
FN 2�22+. Mungo Brandybuck of Buckland..
flyingnun@roseofwhite.plus.com

Nick Finnigan wrote:

[snip]

>
>  I'm over 800m from my green cabinet, and get 40Mbps down,  8Mbps up.
> I've not experiences any resyncs, and can't spot any in the router PPP
> log going back to April (A few power failures since then though).
>
>  I've only had BT digital voice for 3 weeks, but no problems there.

My green cabinet is 1.1km away. Speed about 27Mbits/sec down, about
2.7Mbits/sec up. Average up-time about a day.

Happily I don't need it any more. Have had FTTP since 6 March.

--
Graham J

On 17/09/2023 19:00, Graham J wrote:
> MikeS wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> BT have a firm intention to turn off the traditional *analogue* phone
>> service. In areas w/o BT (Openreach) fibre they will supply customers
>> with a digital voice service using the existing copper connection.
>> Most of them are probably already using the copper for broadband anyway.
>
> Broadband over copper wires is far too unreliable to support VoIP.
> Typically ADSL gives about 2Mbits/sec max and re-syncs several times per
> day taking a minute to do so each time.  VDSL is better if the green
> cabinet is less than about 100 metres away, but further than that and
> you get poor speeds and variable reliability.  A re-sync still takes
> about a minute - imagine that during a phone call !!!
>
As I said, you are perpetuating a myth.

My ADSL is reliable, does NOT "re-sync several times per day taking a
minute to do so each time", download is consistently 17Mbits/sec, and in
any case 2Mbits/sec would be more than sufficient for VoIP.