Abandoned Trolley <fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/03/2024 08:19, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 26/03/2024 07:26, Codger wrote:
>>> No wonder it has never really caught on!
>>
>>
>> There have been a number of failings in the Three Words system that have
>> been widely publicised and some emergency services have stopped
>> encouraging its use.
>>
>>
>
>
> You are almost suggesting that the phonetic alphabet was introduced for
> a reason
>

Indeed, but it is rarely used by the general public.
What3words could easily be improved by adding a 4th word as a checksum and
removing sound alike words. There’s a lot of concentration on the failings
of W3W whilst ignoring the shortcomings of competing methods.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 08:39:14 +0000, Abandoned Trolley
<fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:

>On 26/03/2024 08:19, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 26/03/2024 07:26, Codger wrote:
>>> No wonder it has never really caught on!
>>
>> There have been a number of failings in the Three Words system that have
>> been widely publicised and some emergency services have stopped
>> encouraging its use.
>
>You are almost suggesting that the phonetic alphabet was introduced for
>a reason

I think you mean "phonetic alphabets". I had to learn two in my
job, neither of which is used by the UK emergency services.
--
Roger

On 26/03/2024 08:22, Graham J wrote:
> It also needs a "sanity check" so that a mistake can be identified by
> its context.  For example a grid reference quoted by crew on a sinking
> boat would immediately be queried by land-based emergency staff if that
> reference was for somewhere on land.

At least with other systems you can often realise that something is wrong,

With Lat / Long and NGR, you can adjust the precision needed by only
using part - so with NGR, in some uses you might just use XY 1234 rather
than XY 12xxxx 23xxx.

With W3W being a proprietary system you cannot do that. Can you convert
to Lat / Long or NGR without paying the fee or are you restricted to
just being shown where it is on a map?

On 26/03/2024 09:09, Tweed wrote:
> Grid references quoted as numbers will also suffer in translation across
> language barriers.

But a number can be read out in any language. Words can pronounced
differently in different languages.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 26/03/2024 08:22, Graham J wrote:
>> It also needs a "sanity check" so that a mistake can be identified by
>> its context.  For example a grid reference quoted by crew on a sinking
>> boat would immediately be queried by land-based emergency staff if that
>> reference was for somewhere on land.
>
>
>
> At least with other systems you can often realise that something is wrong,
>
> With Lat / Long and NGR, you can adjust the precision needed by only
> using part - so with NGR, in some uses you might just use XY 1234 rather
> than XY 12xxxx 23xxx.
>
> With W3W being a proprietary system you cannot do that. Can you convert
> to Lat / Long or NGR without paying the fee or are you restricted to
> just being shown where it is on a map?
>
>

https://what3words.com/products/batch-converter

Tweed wrote:

> A vanishingly small number of the population are able to understand let
> alone use grid references.

If people were willing to install W3W app, they could be encouraged to
use the official "OS Locate" app that gives 3 digit NGR (XX 999 999 format)

JMB99 wrote:
> With W3W being a proprietary system you cannot do that.  Can you convert
> to Lat / Long or NGR without paying the fee or are you restricted to
> just being shown where it is on a map?
There are handy websites that will convert between NGR, lat/lon,
postcode and W3W (e.g. gridreferencefinder.com) but you wouldn't want to
have to fire that up just to report your position ...

On 26/03/2024 15:02, Andy Burns wrote:
> If people were willing to install W3W app, they could be encouraged to
> use the official "OS Locate" app that gives 3 digit NGR (XX 999 999 format)

Just hope they do not go on holiday to the Channel Islands or Ireland!

On 26/03/2024 08:22, Graham J wrote:
> Ultimately the problem is that everybody must have access to the
> database of identifiers and a map.

That's the commercial motivation behind it! Service providers have to
pay for the use of the information needed to convert them to latitude
and longitude.

However, I notice it has caught on more than the semi-open plus codes
system with people who volunteer locator codes. The other option seems
to be latitude and longitude precise to much less than the width of a
electron, and invalidated by tectonic drift in no time at all.

The commercial part of plus codes is the place name, for the approximate
location, but the codes can be used in a longer form. The place names
are taken from Google maps.

David Woolley wrote:
> The commercial part of plus codes is the place name, for the approximate
> location, but the codes can be used in a longer form.  The place names
> are taken from Google maps.
Plus Codes do claim to be "open source" whatever that means in this
instance, but it is run by google
<https://plus.codes>
does end-up redirected to
<https://maps.google.com/pluscodes>

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Tweed wrote:
>
>> A vanishingly small number of the population are able to understand let
>> alone use grid references.
>
> If people were willing to install W3W app, they could be encouraged to
> use the official "OS Locate" app that gives 3 digit NGR (XX 999 999 format)
>

This requires 8 words to be dictated and also contains no checksum.

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 26/03/2024 08:22, Graham J wrote:
>> Ultimately the problem is that everybody must have access to the
>> database of identifiers and a map.
>
> That's the commercial motivation behind it! Service providers have to
> pay for the use of the information needed to convert them to latitude
> and longitude.
>
> However, I notice it has caught on more than the semi-open plus codes
> system with people who volunteer locator codes. The other option seems
> to be latitude and longitude precise to much less than the width of a
> electron, and invalidated by tectonic drift in no time at all.
>
> The commercial part of plus codes is the place name, for the approximate
> location, but the codes can be used in a longer form. The place names
> are taken from Google maps.
>

Lat/long in decimal format requires three decimal places to get to around
100 metres accuracy. It’s quite a quantity of numbers to dictate.

On 26/03/2024 16:15, Andy Burns wrote:
> Plus Codes do claim to be "open source" whatever that means in this
> instance, but it is run by google

They are based on Open Location Codes, but the Google ones are in the
shortened form, where an approximate location is used taken from Google
Maps. Some other area names seem to find a usable hit from Google Maps,
so it is not essential to get the official, Google, one, and if the area
is sensibly chosen, a human should be able to constrain the short code
to the right square.

The open source specification is here:
<https://github.com/google/open-location-code/blob/main/docs/specification.md>.

There are sites and apps that will give you the full, code, but I didn't
find any that didn't serve ads. Unfortunately, Google makes it too easy
to get the Google Maps friendly codes, so there is little support for
full code creation, although Google Maps can find full codes.

On 26/03/2024 16:15, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> <https://plus.codes>
>
> does end-up redirected to
>
> <https://maps.google.com/pluscodes>

But it redirects back to plus.codes for actual lookups, and the
resulting URIs contain the full global code, without Google Maps data,
and you can get it to display the full code on the body of the page, as
additional information, even if there is a short code.

Example with no current short code: <https://plus.codes/7CVR7C4V+94>
(random desert location), and one with a short code:
<https://plus.codes/849VCWC7+RW> (click expand on the short code at the
bottom and possibly on the one that appears on the left).

David Woolley wrote:

> Example with no current short code: <https://plus.codes/7CVR7C4V+94>
> (random desert location), and one with a short code:
> <https://plus.codes/849VCWC7+RW> (click expand on the short code at the
> bottom and possibly on the one that appears on the left).

They're both white csat in a snow storm here ... seem to work in chrome,
not in firefox

On 26/03/2024 21:33, Andy Burns wrote:
> They're both white csat in a snow storm here ... seem to work in chrome,
> not in firefox

I used Firefox 115.7.0esr (64-bit) on Debian.

In article <utu3n7$1njc8$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
>Abandoned Trolley <fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/03/2024 08:19, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 26/03/2024 07:26, Codger wrote:
>>>> No wonder it has never really caught on!
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been a number of failings in the Three Words system that have
>>> been widely publicised and some emergency services have stopped
>>> encouraging its use.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> You are almost suggesting that the phonetic alphabet was introduced for
>> a reason
>>
>
>Indeed, but it is rarely used by the general public.
>What3words could easily be improved by adding a 4th word as a checksum and
>removing sound alike words. There’s a lot of concentration on the failings
>of W3W whilst ignoring the shortcomings of competing methods.
>

I thought that when you dialled 112 or 999 most phones would tag a GPS
reference to that, or have i got that wrong?...

Remember being out in the wilderness of Suffolk bint on the recovery
service wanted a postcode silly sods, but the recovery bloke called me i
was successfully able to describe my location, local knowledge eh;?...

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

In article <rfe50j12kmocnc53qhe6cpuqnafnh8frj9@4ax.com>, Roger
<invalid@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 08:39:14 +0000, Abandoned Trolley
><fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 26/03/2024 08:19, JMB99 wrote:
>>> On 26/03/2024 07:26, Codger wrote:
>>>> No wonder it has never really caught on!
>>>
>>> There have been a number of failings in the Three Words system that have
>>> been widely publicised and some emergency services have stopped
>>> encouraging its use.
>>
>>You are almost suggesting that the phonetic alphabet was introduced for
>>a reason
>
>I think you mean "phonetic alphabets". I had to learn two in my
>job, neither of which is used by the UK emergency services.

Knew there was the old; Able Baker Charlie one but two?.

What did you used to do?...
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 27/03/2024 15:28, tony sayer wrote:
> Remember being out in the wilderness of Suffolk bint on the recovery
> service wanted a postcode silly sods, but the recovery bloke called me i
> was successfully able to describe my location, local knowledge eh;?...

My car had a problem one lunchtime when I was leaving work to go for
lunch, we were just a mile or so from the town centre.

It was under warranty so rang Renault Assistance, gave the postcode but
they could not find it on their system (it was not a new site). After
several minutes getting nowhere, I gave the old name of the site (we had
been privatised).

The AA man arrived a couple of minutes later!

He followed me as I drove it to the dealer where they pinched a spare
part out of a new van in the showroom!

On 27/03/2024 15:29, tony sayer wrote:
> Knew there was the old; Able Baker Charlie one but two?.

Obviously can't hear them now but in the days when you could hear the
emergency services, I am sure they used the standard 'International' /
NATO phonetic alphabet.

On 27/03/2024 15:28, tony sayer wrote:
> I thought that when you dialled 112 or 999 most phones would tag a GPS
> reference to that, or have i got that wrong?...

If you don't disable it, emergency location services will send a
location, but not as part of the call. There seem to be various options,
including SMS and https, but I couldn't, quickly, find what the UK uses.
I suspect it SMS.

On Android, it will use every available location source, turning them
on, if necessary, not just GPS.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 15:29:32 +0000, tony sayer
<tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <rfe50j12kmocnc53qhe6cpuqnafnh8frj9@4ax.com>, Roger
><invalid@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 08:39:14 +0000, Abandoned Trolley
>><fred@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 26/03/2024 08:19, JMB99 wrote:
>>>> On 26/03/2024 07:26, Codger wrote:
>>>>> No wonder it has never really caught on!
>>>>
>>>> There have been a number of failings in the Three Words system that have
>>>> been widely publicised and some emergency services have stopped
>>>> encouraging its use.
>>>
>>>You are almost suggesting that the phonetic alphabet was introduced for
>>>a reason
>>
>>I think you mean "phonetic alphabets". I had to learn two in my
>>job, neither of which is used by the UK emergency services.
>
>Knew there was the old; Able Baker Charlie one but two?.
>
>What did you used to do?...

Firstly continental telephone operator then transferred to
international.

For continental we had to learn

Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark, Edison, Florida,
Gallipoli, Havana, Italy, Jerusalem, Kilogramme, Liverpool,
Madagascar, New York, Oslo, Paris, Quebec, Rome, Santiago,
Tripoli, Uppsala, Valencia, Washington, Xantippe, Yokohama,
Zurich

For international

Alfred, Benjamin, Charles, David, Edward, Frederick, George,
Harry, Isaac, Jack, King, London, Mary, Nellie, Oliver,
Peter, Queen, Robert, Samuel, Tommy, Uncle, Victor, William,
X-ray, Yellow, Zebra
--
Roger

On 27/03/2024 22:01, Roger wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 15:29:32 +0000, tony sayer
> <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> In article <rfe50j12kmocnc53qhe6cpuqnafnh8frj9@4ax.com>, Roger
>> <invalid@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>>>
>>> I think you mean "phonetic alphabets". I had to learn two in my
>>> job, neither of which is used by the UK emergency services.
>>
>> Knew there was the old; Able Baker Charlie one but two?.
>>
>> What did you used to do?...
>
> Firstly continental telephone operator then transferred to
> international.
>
> For continental we had to learn
>
> Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark, Edison, Florida,
> Gallipoli, Havana, Italy, Jerusalem, Kilogramme, Liverpool,
> Madagascar, New York, Oslo, Paris, Quebec, Rome, Santiago,
> Tripoli, Uppsala, Valencia, Washington, Xantippe, Yokohama,
> Zurich
>
> For international
>
> Alfred, Benjamin, Charles, David, Edward, Frederick, George,
> Harry, Isaac, Jack, King, London, Mary, Nellie, Oliver,
> Peter, Queen, Robert, Samuel, Tommy, Uncle, Victor, William,
> X-ray, Yellow, Zebra

I *think* I've learnt two, the first as part of Combined Cadet Force
(CCF) training at school and the one I use now, listed below. As far as
ageing memory allows, I think the CCF was pretty close to the modern one
but differed in some places, but details now forgotten, hence my
uncertainty:

Letter|Word|Spoken as
A ALPHA ALFAH
B BRAVO BRAHVOH
C CHARLIE CHARLEE
D DELTA DELLTAH
E ECHO ECKOH
F FOXTROT FOKSTROT
G GOLF GOLF
H HOTEL HOHTELL
I INDIA INDEEAH
J JULIET JEWLEEETT
K KILO KEYLOH
L LIMA LEEMAH
M MIKE MIKE
N NOVEMBER NOVEMBER
O OSCAR OSSCAR
P PAPA PAHPAH
Q QUEBEC KEHBECK
R ROMEO ROWMEOH
S SIERRA SEEAIRRAH
T TANGO TANGGO
U UNIFORM YOUNEEFORM
V VICTOR VIKTAH
W WHISKEY WISSKEY
X X-RAY ECKSRAY
Y YANKEE YANGKEY
Z ZULU ZOOLOO

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:05:31 +0000, David Woolley
<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:

>On 27/03/2024 15:28, tony sayer wrote:
>> I thought that when you dialled 112 or 999 most phones would tag a GPS
>> reference to that, or have i got that wrong?...
>
>If you don't disable it, emergency location services will send a
>location, but not as part of the call. There seem to be various options,
>including SMS and https, but I couldn't, quickly, find what the UK uses.
> I suspect it SMS.

When I called NHS 111 from my iPhone last week they sent me a text
message containing a hyperlink to share my location with them,

On 27/03/2024 23:38, Java Jive wrote:
> I *think* I've learnt two, the first as part of Combined Cadet Force
> (CCF) training at school and the one I use now, listed below.  As far as
> ageing memory allows, I think the CCF was pretty close to the modern one
> but differed in some places, but details now forgotten, hence my
> uncertainty:

There is always A for 'Orses, B for Mutton .....