On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 15:22:27 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:39:14 +0000, Mark Goodge
><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:10:20 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:05:34 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:33:00 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Not just the cost of the locks but also the central locking system, on
>>>>>carriages with dynamos so power supplies would need to be upgraded.
>>>>>Saying "locks" is simplifying the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>Whatever happened to common sense? How many relevant incidents have
>>>>>happened over the years on this stock, if any.
>>>>
>>>>The specific problem with railway carriages is that everywhere else on the
>>>>main line (and every metro and tram line) the doors are now centrally
>>>>locked. So it's what rail passengers are used to, and what people expect.
>>>>Unlocked doors are, therefore, a departure from the norm, and the fact that
>>>>it is a departure from the norm is what exacerbates the danger.
>>>>
>>>That's fair comment, but what is the magnitude of the danger in the
>>>first place?
>>
>>The danger is potentially fatal. Falling out of a train door while the train
>>is in motion has a very high prospect of killing you.
>>
>>>I assume passengers are not used to opening the door
>>>whilst the train is not at a station. They may open the door early (as
>>>was the custom on SR) but the train would be moving slowly and
>>>passengers on the platform would be fully aware of the approach of the
>>>train. I wonder what the statistics day about passengers falling out
>>>of slam door trains and persons being hit by the door of a moving
>>>train.
>>
>>You appear to be assuming that the probability of an incident is the only
>>risk factor. But it isn't. The severity of a potential incident is also
>>significant. Here, for example, is a typical risk severity matrix:
>>
>>https://www.businessanalyststoolkit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/riskseveritymatrix.png
>>
>>As far as the railways are concerned, someone falling out of an unlocked
>>door is somewhere at the bottom right of that grid: rare likelihood but
>>major or critical severity. Historically that's been tolerated because the
>>technology simply didn't exist to effectively mitigate it. But the
>>technology does exist now, so it is now also considered the norm.
>>
>>What exacerbates the issue is that unfamiliarity with unlocked doors is
>>likely to exacerbate the risk. People are more likely to be careless if they
>>mistakenly think that something else is keeping them safe. They're still
>>unlikely to deliberately open a door while the train is in motion, but
>>opening a door when the train is at a standstill but where that specific
>>door doesn't happen to be at a platform is much more likely.
>>
>All fair comment. I wonder what the court will decide:
>
>https://www.cityam.com/hogwarts-express-operator-spells-trouble-for-rail-regulator-in-court-duel-over-heritage-train-safety/
>West Coast Railways began its judicial review in London’s Royal Court
>of Justice on Tuesday, against industry watchdog the Office for Rail
>and Road.
>
>At first I assumed the case would call at the Court of Session, but I
>see West Coast Railway Company is based in England and of course the
>ruling will apply across GB (quaere NI?).
>
It will only apply to England and Wales, a definitive decision in an
English Court can only be "persuasive" (or even totally irrelevant) in
Scotland. Northern Ireland would tend to follow an English decision
but there is a possibility of a previous decision in their own
judicial system which would impede use of an English one.

Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
somehow doubt that they cost that much!

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 07:33:16 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 15:22:27 +0000, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:39:14 +0000, Mark Goodge
>><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:10:20 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:05:34 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:33:00 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not just the cost of the locks but also the central locking system, on
>>>>>>carriages with dynamos so power supplies would need to be upgraded.
>>>>>>Saying "locks" is simplifying the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Whatever happened to common sense? How many relevant incidents have
>>>>>>happened over the years on this stock, if any.
>>>>>
>>>>>The specific problem with railway carriages is that everywhere else on the
>>>>>main line (and every metro and tram line) the doors are now centrally
>>>>>locked. So it's what rail passengers are used to, and what people expect.
>>>>>Unlocked doors are, therefore, a departure from the norm, and the fact that
>>>>>it is a departure from the norm is what exacerbates the danger.
>>>>>
>>>>That's fair comment, but what is the magnitude of the danger in the
>>>>first place?
>>>
>>>The danger is potentially fatal. Falling out of a train door while the train
>>>is in motion has a very high prospect of killing you.
>>>
>>>>I assume passengers are not used to opening the door
>>>>whilst the train is not at a station. They may open the door early (as
>>>>was the custom on SR) but the train would be moving slowly and
>>>>passengers on the platform would be fully aware of the approach of the
>>>>train. I wonder what the statistics day about passengers falling out
>>>>of slam door trains and persons being hit by the door of a moving
>>>>train.
>>>
>>>You appear to be assuming that the probability of an incident is the only
>>>risk factor. But it isn't. The severity of a potential incident is also
>>>significant. Here, for example, is a typical risk severity matrix:
>>>
>>>https://www.businessanalyststoolkit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/riskseveritymatrix.png
>>>
>>>As far as the railways are concerned, someone falling out of an unlocked
>>>door is somewhere at the bottom right of that grid: rare likelihood but
>>>major or critical severity. Historically that's been tolerated because the
>>>technology simply didn't exist to effectively mitigate it. But the
>>>technology does exist now, so it is now also considered the norm.
>>>
>>>What exacerbates the issue is that unfamiliarity with unlocked doors is
>>>likely to exacerbate the risk. People are more likely to be careless if they
>>>mistakenly think that something else is keeping them safe. They're still
>>>unlikely to deliberately open a door while the train is in motion, but
>>>opening a door when the train is at a standstill but where that specific
>>>door doesn't happen to be at a platform is much more likely.
>>>
>>All fair comment. I wonder what the court will decide:
>>
>>https://www.cityam.com/hogwarts-express-operator-spells-trouble-for-rail-regulator-in-court-duel-over-heritage-train-safety/
>>West Coast Railways began its judicial review in London’s Royal Court
>>of Justice on Tuesday, against industry watchdog the Office for Rail
>>and Road.
>>
>>At first I assumed the case would call at the Court of Session, but I
>>see West Coast Railway Company is based in England and of course the
>>ruling will apply across GB (quaere NI?).
>>
>It will only apply to England and Wales, a definitive decision in an
>English Court can only be "persuasive" (or even totally irrelevant) in
>Scotland. Northern Ireland would tend to follow an English decision
>but there is a possibility of a previous decision in their own
>judicial system which would impede use of an English one.

Interesting. Even for a GB regulator in a reserved matter? That would
mean Ofcom decisions about the BBC would not automatically apply in
Scotland, which could certainly lead to interesting consequences.

On 30/11/2023 10:48, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 07:33:16 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 15:22:27 +0000, Scott
>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:39:14 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:10:20 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:05:34 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:33:00 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not just the cost of the locks but also the central locking system, on
>>>>>>> carriages with dynamos so power supplies would need to be upgraded.
>>>>>>> Saying "locks" is simplifying the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whatever happened to common sense? How many relevant incidents have
>>>>>>> happened over the years on this stock, if any.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The specific problem with railway carriages is that everywhere else on the
>>>>>> main line (and every metro and tram line) the doors are now centrally
>>>>>> locked. So it's what rail passengers are used to, and what people expect.
>>>>>> Unlocked doors are, therefore, a departure from the norm, and the fact that
>>>>>> it is a departure from the norm is what exacerbates the danger.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's fair comment, but what is the magnitude of the danger in the
>>>>> first place?
>>>>
>>>> The danger is potentially fatal. Falling out of a train door while the train
>>>> is in motion has a very high prospect of killing you.
>>>>
>>>>> I assume passengers are not used to opening the door
>>>>> whilst the train is not at a station. They may open the door early (as
>>>>> was the custom on SR) but the train would be moving slowly and
>>>>> passengers on the platform would be fully aware of the approach of the
>>>>> train. I wonder what the statistics day about passengers falling out
>>>>> of slam door trains and persons being hit by the door of a moving
>>>>> train.
>>>>
>>>> You appear to be assuming that the probability of an incident is the only
>>>> risk factor. But it isn't. The severity of a potential incident is also
>>>> significant. Here, for example, is a typical risk severity matrix:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessanalyststoolkit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/riskseveritymatrix.png
>>>>
>>>> As far as the railways are concerned, someone falling out of an unlocked
>>>> door is somewhere at the bottom right of that grid: rare likelihood but
>>>> major or critical severity. Historically that's been tolerated because the
>>>> technology simply didn't exist to effectively mitigate it. But the
>>>> technology does exist now, so it is now also considered the norm.
>>>>
>>>> What exacerbates the issue is that unfamiliarity with unlocked doors is
>>>> likely to exacerbate the risk. People are more likely to be careless if they
>>>> mistakenly think that something else is keeping them safe. They're still
>>>> unlikely to deliberately open a door while the train is in motion, but
>>>> opening a door when the train is at a standstill but where that specific
>>>> door doesn't happen to be at a platform is much more likely.
>>>>
>>> All fair comment. I wonder what the court will decide:
>>>
>>> https://www.cityam.com/hogwarts-express-operator-spells-trouble-for-rail-regulator-in-court-duel-over-heritage-train-safety/
>>> West Coast Railways began its judicial review in London’s Royal Court
>>> of Justice on Tuesday, against industry watchdog the Office for Rail
>>> and Road.
>>>
>>> At first I assumed the case would call at the Court of Session, but I
>>> see West Coast Railway Company is based in England and of course the
>>> ruling will apply across GB (quaere NI?).
>>>
>> It will only apply to England and Wales, a definitive decision in an
>> English Court can only be "persuasive" (or even totally irrelevant) in
>> Scotland. Northern Ireland would tend to follow an English decision
>> but there is a possibility of a previous decision in their own
>> judicial system which would impede use of an English one.
>
> Interesting. Even for a GB regulator in a reserved matter? That would
> mean Ofcom decisions about the BBC would not automatically apply in
> Scotland, which could certainly lead to interesting consequences.

What is reserved about this? ORR covers the whole of railways in
England, Wales and Scotland:
https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/how-we-work/strategy-duties/law-and-our-duties
As the ORR is based in England I suspect that an English court ruling
will apply to the ORR even if it refers to a Scottish railway.

--
Colin

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 13:01:57 +0000, ColinR
<rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30/11/2023 10:48, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 07:33:16 +0000, Charles Ellson
>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 15:22:27 +0000, Scott
>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:39:14 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:10:20 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:05:34 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:33:00 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not just the cost of the locks but also the central locking system, on
>>>>>>>> carriages with dynamos so power supplies would need to be upgraded.
>>>>>>>> Saying "locks" is simplifying the problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whatever happened to common sense? How many relevant incidents have
>>>>>>>> happened over the years on this stock, if any.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The specific problem with railway carriages is that everywhere else on the
>>>>>>> main line (and every metro and tram line) the doors are now centrally
>>>>>>> locked. So it's what rail passengers are used to, and what people expect.
>>>>>>> Unlocked doors are, therefore, a departure from the norm, and the fact that
>>>>>>> it is a departure from the norm is what exacerbates the danger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's fair comment, but what is the magnitude of the danger in the
>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>
>>>>> The danger is potentially fatal. Falling out of a train door while the train
>>>>> is in motion has a very high prospect of killing you.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I assume passengers are not used to opening the door
>>>>>> whilst the train is not at a station. They may open the door early (as
>>>>>> was the custom on SR) but the train would be moving slowly and
>>>>>> passengers on the platform would be fully aware of the approach of the
>>>>>> train. I wonder what the statistics day about passengers falling out
>>>>>> of slam door trains and persons being hit by the door of a moving
>>>>>> train.
>>>>>
>>>>> You appear to be assuming that the probability of an incident is the only
>>>>> risk factor. But it isn't. The severity of a potential incident is also
>>>>> significant. Here, for example, is a typical risk severity matrix:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.businessanalyststoolkit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/riskseveritymatrix.png
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the railways are concerned, someone falling out of an unlocked
>>>>> door is somewhere at the bottom right of that grid: rare likelihood but
>>>>> major or critical severity. Historically that's been tolerated because the
>>>>> technology simply didn't exist to effectively mitigate it. But the
>>>>> technology does exist now, so it is now also considered the norm.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exacerbates the issue is that unfamiliarity with unlocked doors is
>>>>> likely to exacerbate the risk. People are more likely to be careless if they
>>>>> mistakenly think that something else is keeping them safe. They're still
>>>>> unlikely to deliberately open a door while the train is in motion, but
>>>>> opening a door when the train is at a standstill but where that specific
>>>>> door doesn't happen to be at a platform is much more likely.
>>>>>
>>>> All fair comment. I wonder what the court will decide:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cityam.com/hogwarts-express-operator-spells-trouble-for-rail-regulator-in-court-duel-over-heritage-train-safety/
>>>> West Coast Railways began its judicial review in London’s Royal Court
>>>> of Justice on Tuesday, against industry watchdog the Office for Rail
>>>> and Road.
>>>>
>>>> At first I assumed the case would call at the Court of Session, but I
>>>> see West Coast Railway Company is based in England and of course the
>>>> ruling will apply across GB (quaere NI?).
>>>>
>>> It will only apply to England and Wales, a definitive decision in an
>>> English Court can only be "persuasive" (or even totally irrelevant) in
>>> Scotland. Northern Ireland would tend to follow an English decision
>>> but there is a possibility of a previous decision in their own
>>> judicial system which would impede use of an English one.
>>
>> Interesting. Even for a GB regulator in a reserved matter? That would
>> mean Ofcom decisions about the BBC would not automatically apply in
>> Scotland, which could certainly lead to interesting consequences.
>
>What is reserved about this? ORR covers the whole of railways in
>England, Wales and Scotland:
>https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/how-we-work/strategy-duties/law-and-our-duties
>As the ORR is based in England I suspect that an English court ruling
>will apply to the ORR even if it refers to a Scottish railway.

Reserved is the technical term for anything that is not devolved. See:
https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/devolved-and-reserved-matters/

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>
Mine doesn't. You have to switch that function on.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 13:42:53 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 13:01:57 +0000, ColinR
><rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 30/11/2023 10:48, Scott wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 07:33:16 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 15:22:27 +0000, Scott
>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:39:14 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:10:20 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:05:34 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:33:00 +0000, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not just the cost of the locks but also the central locking system, on
>>>>>>>>> carriages with dynamos so power supplies would need to be upgraded.
>>>>>>>>> Saying "locks" is simplifying the problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whatever happened to common sense? How many relevant incidents have
>>>>>>>>> happened over the years on this stock, if any.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The specific problem with railway carriages is that everywhere else on the
>>>>>>>> main line (and every metro and tram line) the doors are now centrally
>>>>>>>> locked. So it's what rail passengers are used to, and what people expect.
>>>>>>>> Unlocked doors are, therefore, a departure from the norm, and the fact that
>>>>>>>> it is a departure from the norm is what exacerbates the danger.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's fair comment, but what is the magnitude of the danger in the
>>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The danger is potentially fatal. Falling out of a train door while the train
>>>>>> is in motion has a very high prospect of killing you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I assume passengers are not used to opening the door
>>>>>>> whilst the train is not at a station. They may open the door early (as
>>>>>>> was the custom on SR) but the train would be moving slowly and
>>>>>>> passengers on the platform would be fully aware of the approach of the
>>>>>>> train. I wonder what the statistics day about passengers falling out
>>>>>>> of slam door trains and persons being hit by the door of a moving
>>>>>>> train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You appear to be assuming that the probability of an incident is the only
>>>>>> risk factor. But it isn't. The severity of a potential incident is also
>>>>>> significant. Here, for example, is a typical risk severity matrix:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.businessanalyststoolkit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/riskseveritymatrix.png
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as the railways are concerned, someone falling out of an unlocked
>>>>>> door is somewhere at the bottom right of that grid: rare likelihood but
>>>>>> major or critical severity. Historically that's been tolerated because the
>>>>>> technology simply didn't exist to effectively mitigate it. But the
>>>>>> technology does exist now, so it is now also considered the norm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What exacerbates the issue is that unfamiliarity with unlocked doors is
>>>>>> likely to exacerbate the risk. People are more likely to be careless if they
>>>>>> mistakenly think that something else is keeping them safe. They're still
>>>>>> unlikely to deliberately open a door while the train is in motion, but
>>>>>> opening a door when the train is at a standstill but where that specific
>>>>>> door doesn't happen to be at a platform is much more likely.
>>>>>>
>>>>> All fair comment. I wonder what the court will decide:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.cityam.com/hogwarts-express-operator-spells-trouble-for-rail-regulator-in-court-duel-over-heritage-train-safety/
>>>>> West Coast Railways began its judicial review in London’s Royal Court
>>>>> of Justice on Tuesday, against industry watchdog the Office for Rail
>>>>> and Road.
>>>>>
>>>>> At first I assumed the case would call at the Court of Session, but I
>>>>> see West Coast Railway Company is based in England and of course the
>>>>> ruling will apply across GB (quaere NI?).
>>>>>
>>>> It will only apply to England and Wales, a definitive decision in an
>>>> English Court can only be "persuasive" (or even totally irrelevant) in
>>>> Scotland. Northern Ireland would tend to follow an English decision
>>>> but there is a possibility of a previous decision in their own
>>>> judicial system which would impede use of an English one.
>>>
>>> Interesting. Even for a GB regulator in a reserved matter? That would
>>> mean Ofcom decisions about the BBC would not automatically apply in
>>> Scotland, which could certainly lead to interesting consequences.
>>
>>What is reserved about this? ORR covers the whole of railways in
>>England, Wales and Scotland:
>>https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/how-we-work/strategy-duties/law-and-our-duties
>>As the ORR is based in England I suspect that an English court ruling
>>will apply to the ORR even if it refers to a Scottish railway.
>
The ORR does not pass legal judgments. As with other cross-border
organisations it can usually deal with matters on both sides of the
border as one matter as long as there is no clash of any legal
features; one such thing could be the standard of evidential proof
required where criminal law is involved.

>Reserved is the technical term for anything that is not devolved. See:
>https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/devolved-and-reserved-matters/
>
Wrong. "Reserved" is anything in the Scotland Act which is
specifically listed as a reserved matter; everything else is not
reserved. Many things were already Scottish matters before the
Scotland Act either because functions had been transferred to the
Scottish Office in the preceding century or so or were excluded from
becoming part of UK matters in 1707 (e.g. the Kirk, the legal system
and local government) and were never later made UK matters (e.g. Poor
Laws). The Scottish NHS (e.g.) is not devolved because there has never
been a UK NHS; it has always been a separate body.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>somehow doubt that they cost that much!

Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).

On 30/11/2023 15:02, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>
> Mine doesn't. You have to switch that function on.

The car will have them, just that you have turned off.

On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>
> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).

First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 15:52:00 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 30/11/2023 15:02, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>
>> Mine doesn't. You have to switch that function on.
>
>
>The car will have them, just that you have turned off.
>
In which case they won't lock soon after I start moving. The handbook
actually seems to discourage turning it on.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 17:09:14 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>
>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>
>First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>
Took about 10 seconds.
https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/cars-for-sale/search/Ford/Cortina/

On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>
> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).

Absolutely. In particular the electrical system would not be able to
stand the on-going extra load (was the Mk 1 Cortina alternator or dynamo
fitted?). Not just a case of fitting new locks but also the switches and
sensors needed for operation. Oh, and new ignition keys etc to control
the locks etc etc.

Money, money, money. Feasible if the revenue can stand the additional
cost. Find someone with a big purse....

--
Colin

On 30/11/2023 20:30, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 17:09:14 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>
>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>
>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>
> Took about 10 seconds.
> https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/cars-for-sale/search/Ford/Cortina/

There's always someone who takes it literally…

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>
>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>
> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…

There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
NR tracks.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>
>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>
>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>
> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
> NR tracks.

Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1 carriages
than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>
>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>>>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>
>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>
>> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
>> NR tracks.
>
> Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1 carriages
> than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.

More than likely, but fewer doors!

My Mk 1 Cortina was stolen and recovered (missing a few bits), so I created
and fitted a simple electrical automatic anti-theft device. It had a hidden
toe pedal that you had to tap before trying to start the car. If you
didn't, it wouldn't start. The car wasn't stolen again.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 21:27:44 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30/11/2023 20:30, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 17:09:14 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>
>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>
>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>>
>> Took about 10 seconds.
>> https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/cars-for-sale/search/Ford/Cortina/
>
>There's always someone who takes it literally…
>
Well, yer did arsk.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>>>>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>>
>>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>>
>>> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
>>> NR tracks.
>>
>> Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1 carriages
>> than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.
>
> More than likely, but fewer doors!

:-)

> My Mk 1 Cortina was stolen and recovered (missing a few bits), so I created
> and fitted a simple electrical automatic anti-theft device. It had a hidden
> toe pedal that you had to tap before trying to start the car. If you
> didn't, it wouldn't start. The car wasn't stolen again.

A fellow student at University installed a reed relay in the headlining of
his car, and it would only run when there was a magnet placed next to it.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>>>>>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>>>
>>>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>>>
>>>> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
>>>> NR tracks.
>>>
>>> Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1 carriages
>>> than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.
>>
>> More than likely, but fewer doors!
>
> :-)
>
>> My Mk 1 Cortina was stolen and recovered (missing a few bits), so I created
>> and fitted a simple electrical automatic anti-theft device. It had a hidden
>> toe pedal that you had to tap before trying to start the car. If you
>> didn't, it wouldn't start. The car wasn't stolen again.
>
> A fellow student at University installed a reed relay in the headlining of
> his car, and it would only run when there was a magnet placed next to it.
>
> Sam
>
A farmer I once knew got fed up with always having to find his MK1
landrover key so replaced it with
3 old TV tuning selector switches. To connect the ignition circuit the 3
switches had to be turned to channels 9 ,12 and 10.

GH

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 19:08:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>>>>>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>>>
>>>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>>>
>>>> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
>>>> NR tracks.
>>>
>>> Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1 carriages
>>> than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.
>>
>> More than likely, but fewer doors!
>
>:-)
>
>> My Mk 1 Cortina was stolen and recovered (missing a few bits), so I created
>> and fitted a simple electrical automatic anti-theft device. It had a hidden
>> toe pedal that you had to tap before trying to start the car. If you
>> didn't, it wouldn't start. The car wasn't stolen again.
>
>A fellow student at University installed a reed relay in the headlining of
>his car, and it would only run when there was a magnet placed next to it.
>
The variation I encountered a long time ago had the relay contact in
the starter circuit and the magnet in his ring (the one on his
finger). I think others simply put a concealed toggle switch
somewhere.

On Fri, 01 Dec 2023 21:34:46 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 19:08:35 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts
>>>>>>>> moving, I somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same
>>>>>>> era as Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>>>>
>>>>> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages
>>>>> allowed on NR tracks.
>>>>
>>>> Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1
>>>> carriages than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.
>>>
>>> More than likely, but fewer doors!
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>> My Mk 1 Cortina was stolen and recovered (missing a few bits), so I
>>> created and fitted a simple electrical automatic anti-theft device. It
>>> had a hidden toe pedal that you had to tap before trying to start the
>>> car. If you didn't, it wouldn't start. The car wasn't stolen again.
>>
>>A fellow student at University installed a reed relay in the headlining
>>of his car, and it would only run when there was a magnet placed next to
>>it.
>>
> The variation I encountered a long time ago had the relay contact in the
> starter circuit and the magnet in his ring (the one on his finger). I
> think others simply put a concealed toggle switch somewhere.

The ancient Mini my parents bought as a second car has a hidden toggle
switch in the feed to the electric fuel pump. That would start and go
about 100 metres before it conked out.

nib

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 07:33:16 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:
> It will only apply to England and Wales, a definitive decision in an
> English Court can only be "persuasive" (or even totally irrelevant) in
> Scotland. Northern Ireland would tend to follow an English decision but
> there is a possibility of a previous decision in their own judicial
> system which would impede use of an English one.

It seems to be an English case to me. The dispute between the ORR (based
in London) and West Coast Railways (based in Carnforth). The action being
disputed is the issuing (or not issuing) of a derogation by ORR, which is
between ORR and the company - the train itself isn't directly part of the
dispute. So it seems to me that the location of the Jacobite train is
irrelevant, as both parties to the dispute are in England.

Mike

In message <ukdavj$1vt4n$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:08:35 on Fri, 1 Dec
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>>>>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>>>>>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>>>>>
>>>>> First find a Mk 1 Cortina…
>>>>
>>>> There's probably more of them in existence than Mk 1 carriages allowed on
>>>> NR tracks.
>>>
>>> Though I’d hazard there are probably more seats in surviving Mk 1
>>>carriages than in surviving Mk 1 Cortinas.
>>
>> More than likely, but fewer doors!
>
>:-)
>
>> My Mk 1 Cortina was stolen and recovered (missing a few bits), so I created
>> and fitted a simple electrical automatic anti-theft device. It had a hidden
>> toe pedal that you had to tap before trying to start the car. If you
>> didn't, it wouldn't start. The car wasn't stolen again.
>
>A fellow student at University installed a reed relay in the headlining of
>his car, and it would only run when there was a magnet placed next to it.

It wasn't uncommon in those days for people to fit a hidden switch. The
obvious time to do it was when fitting an aftermarket
electronic-ignition kit.
--
Roland Perry

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 15:27, Recliner wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 10:23:18 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Every car sold has door locks that lock soon after it starts moving, I
>>> somehow doubt that they cost that much!
>>
>> Now try fitting it to a Mk 1 Cortina, which dates from the same era as
>> Mk1 carriages (manual everything).
>
> Absolutely. In particular the electrical system would not be able to
> stand the on-going extra load (was the Mk 1 Cortina alternator or dynamo
> fitted?). Not just a case of fitting new locks but also the switches and
> sensors needed for operation. Oh, and new ignition keys etc to control
> the locks etc etc.
>

Surely they'd (these theoretical automatic door locks on a Mk 1 Cortina)
operate once per journey; 3-5 tiny motors, so far less demand than wipers
or headlights. You'd need an electronic speed sensor adding to one point of
the speedo cable, plus one motor per door lock to pull the existing
mechanism in the 'lock' direction only. Very much achievable, I think.

Anna Noyd-Dryver