In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>>How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or do
>>>>they work for the government?
>>>
>>> Serco. Next.
>>
>>So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>employment.
>>
>>So how would you characterise state employment?
>
>Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a comprehension issue
>here.

The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly* employed,
or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.

Your turn <grabs popcorn>.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>>How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or do
>>>>>they work for the government?
>>>>
>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>
>>>So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>employment.
>>>
>>>So how would you characterise state employment?
>>
>>Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a comprehension issue
>>here.
>
>The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly* employed,
>or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.

Directly employed. My current company does some government work but in no sense
am I employed by HM Government.

On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>>How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
do
>>>>>>they work for the government?
>>>>>
>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>
>>>>So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>employment.
>>>>
>>>>So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>
>>>Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
comprehension issue
>>>here.
>>
>>The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
employed,
>>or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>
> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but in no sense
> am I employed by HM Government.
>

So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
getting somewhere.

Most teachers aren't state employees either then.

Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
> do
>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>
>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>> employment.
>>>>>
>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>
>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
> comprehension issue
>>>> here.
>>>
>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
> employed,
>>> or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>
>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but in no sense
>> am I employed by HM Government.
>>
>
> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
> getting somewhere.

Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
discounts from shops and services.

> Most teachers aren't state employees either then.

I don’t think we’ve defined the state yet, have we?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 02/12/2023 11:01, Rupert Moss-Eccardt wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
> do
>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>
>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>> employment.
>>>>>
>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>
>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
> comprehension issue
>>>> here.
>>>
>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
> employed,
>>> or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>
>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but in no sense
>> am I employed by HM Government.
>>
>
> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
> getting somewhere.
>
> Most teachers aren't state employees either then.
>
>

Up here there are ten GP practices. Of these 9 are NHS run practices
with doctors directly employed by the NHS, only one (Hillswick) where
the GP is a self-employed contractor to the NHS.

So "that clearly means GPs are not state employees" depends upon where
you are - not clearly at all!!

--
Colin

On 02/12/2023 11:22, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
> they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
> discounts from shops and services.

Didn't their trade union (though not called that at the time) campaign
against the NHS?

On 02/12/2023 11:58, JMB99 wrote:
> On 02/12/2023 11:22, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the
>> NHS
>> they are generally not NHS employees.  They may or may not get NHS
>> discounts from shops and services.
>
>
>
> Didn't their trade union (though not called that at the time) campaign
> against the NHS?
>
>

An interesting article:
https://history.blog.gov.uk/2023/07/13/the-founding-of-the-nhs-75-years-on/

"Six months before the Appointed Day it looked as though the whole
edifice might crash through lack of support from the medical profession;
but a near-last-minute agreement saved the structure."

But whilst the NHS is always touted as a Labour Party success, it was a
policy of the coalition, wartime government with Labour just being the
administration of the day who got it going. The well-known phrase of
"from the cradle to the grave" was actually said by Churchill.

--
Colin

On 02/12/2023 12:20, ColinR wrote:
> On 02/12/2023 11:58, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 02/12/2023 11:22, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of
>>> the NHS
>>> they are generally not NHS employees.  They may or may not get NHS
>>> discounts from shops and services.
>>
>>
>>
>> Didn't their trade union (though not called that at the time) campaign
>> against the NHS?
>>
>>
>
> An interesting article:
> https://history.blog.gov.uk/2023/07/13/the-founding-of-the-nhs-75-years-on/
>
> "Six months before the Appointed Day it looked as though the whole
> edifice might crash through lack of support from the medical profession;
> but a near-last-minute agreement saved the structure."
>
> But whilst the NHS is always touted as a Labour Party success, it was a
> policy of the coalition, wartime government with Labour just being the
> administration of the day who got it going. The well-known phrase of
> "from the cradle to the grave" was actually said by Churchill.
>

Allegedly based on the GWR employee health system at Swindon.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ukf424$2bb42$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:44 on Sat, 2 Dec
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
>> do
>>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>>> employment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>>
>>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
>>>>>comprehension issue here.
>>>>
>>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
>>>>employed, or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>>
>>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but
>>>in no sense am I employed by HM Government.
>>
>> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
>> getting somewhere.
>
>Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
>they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
>discounts from shops and services.

I don't see why GPs wouldn't be entitled to "Blue Light" cards, which
are what's required. People much less front line have them, like
hospital admin staff.

>> Most teachers aren't state employees either then.
>
>I don’t think we’ve defined the state yet, have we?

Indeed. And the majority of education was subcontracted by the national
government to County Councils for at least a generation, before many
started to be self-governing as Foundation schools and Academies.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 02 Dec 2023 11:01:27 +0000
Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
>do
>>>>>>>they work for the government?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>
>>>>>So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>>employment.
>>>>>
>>>>>So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>
>>>>Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
>comprehension issue
>>>>here.
>>>
>>>The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
>employed,
>>>or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>
>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but in no
>sense
>> am I employed by HM Government.
>>
>
>So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are

Given they work for private practices I'd have thought that obvious.

>getting somewhere.
>
>Most teachers aren't state employees either then.

I never mentioned GPs or teachers. You're obviously getting confused about
who you're arguing with.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ukf424$2bb42$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:44 on Sat, 2 Dec
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
>>> do
>>>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>>>> employment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
>>>>>> comprehension issue here.
>>>>>
>>>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
>>>>> employed, or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>>>
>>>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but
>>>> in no sense am I employed by HM Government.
>>>
>>> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
>>> getting somewhere.
>>
>> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
>> they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
>> discounts from shops and services.
>
> I don't see why GPs wouldn't be entitled to "Blue Light" cards, which
> are what's required. People much less front line have them, like
> hospital admin staff.

The GP who mentioned it to me was unable to take up an offer during the
pandemic because of not having an NHS staff card of some kind. Presumably
offers differed by who was offering them.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 02/12/2023 15:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Allegedly based on the GWR employee health system at Swindon.

I know there are some old fossils in the RMT but I don't think any go
back to 1725.

Stamford Mercury - Thursday 07 October 1725 This Day is Published,
LOVE's True Oracle : Or, A most new and curious Fortune Book, both for
Men ana Maids, Wives and Widows.....

.....Life or Death, to Persons of both Sexes, throughout the whole Course
of their Lives, from the Cradle to the Grave.. To whic added. The
Signification of Dreams and Moies; with variety of Secrets for Maids and
Widows to fee the true Shape and Apparitions of their Husbands by
Candle-light

In message <ukfsrj$2f6nh$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:25:55 on Sat, 2 Dec
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ukf424$2bb42$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:44 on Sat, 2 Dec
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>>>>> employment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
>>>>>>> comprehension issue here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
>>>>>> employed, or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but
>>>>> in no sense am I employed by HM Government.
>>>>
>>>> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
>>>> getting somewhere.
>>>
>>> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
>>> they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
>>> discounts from shops and services.
>>
>> I don't see why GPs wouldn't be entitled to "Blue Light" cards, which
>> are what's required. People much less front line have them, like
>> hospital admin staff.
>
>The GP who mentioned it to me was unable to take up an offer during the
>pandemic because of not having an NHS staff card of some kind. Presumably
>offers differed by who was offering them.

Early in the pandemic some shops gave preferential treatment to anyone
holding what looked like an NHS ID Card. There's even been a long
standing arrangement in Cambridge for a small discount on annual season
tickets for such card-holders. They may also get free travel on the
guided bus (but I'd have to check).

Holders of Luton airport staff badges got free travel on the shuttle
buses, I don't know if that still works on the Mountain Railway.

I suppose it's possible that many GPs have never bothered to issue
themselves with suitable ID cards, because everyone at their practice
knows them by sight. However, the pandemic scheme converged towards
holders of "Blue Light" cards, which is a generic discount card, and
individual stores can decide whether or not to accept them. I think our
local CoOp gave an automatic 10% discount during lockdown, for anyone
waving such a card.

https://www.bluelightcard.co.uk

Who qualifies?

4x4 Response/Ambulance Service/Blood Bikes/Border Force/British
Army/Cave Rescue/Community First Responders/Fire Service/Highways
England Traffic Officer/HM Armed Forces Veterans/HM Coastguard/HM Prison
Service/Immigration Enforcement/Lowland Search and Rescue/MoD Fire
Service/MoD Police/Mountain Rescue/NHS/Police/Red Cross/Reserve Armed
Forces/RNLI/Royal Air Force/Royal Marines/Royal Navy Search and Rescue/
Social Care Workers/St Andrews Ambulance/St John Ambulance/UK Visas and
Immigration.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ukfl7d$2dvvl$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:15:42 on Sat, 2 Dec
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>Most teachers aren't state employees either then.
>
>I never mentioned GPs or teachers.

They would normally be regarded as mainly working in the public sector.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 18:25:55 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ukf424$2bb42$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:44 on Sat, 2 Dec
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>>>>> employment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
>>>>>>> comprehension issue here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
>>>>>> employed, or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but
>>>>> in no sense am I employed by HM Government.
>>>>
>>>> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
>>>> getting somewhere.
>>>
>>> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
>>> they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
>>> discounts from shops and services.
>>
>> I don't see why GPs wouldn't be entitled to "Blue Light" cards, which
>> are what's required. People much less front line have them, like
>> hospital admin staff.
>
>The GP who mentioned it to me was unable to take up an offer during the
>pandemic because of not having an NHS staff card of some kind. Presumably
>offers differed by who was offering them.
>
The test for one of my cards is having an appropriate e-mail address.
Looking at e.g. my GP's NHS web pages, there is nothing to indicate
that he or the practice has a *.nhs.uk e-mail address.

On 03/12/2023 22:54, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 18:25:55 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ukf424$2bb42$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:22:44 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 1 Dec 2023 15:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 13:12:08 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uk7onj$tfds$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:27 on Wed, 29 Nov
>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How about prison officers. Are they simply employees of Serco or
>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> they work for the government?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Serco. Next.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So holding public office and performing a public service isn't state
>>>>>>>>> employment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So how would you characterise state employment?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Being employed by the state. Not sure why you're having a
>>>>>>>> comprehension issue here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The elephant in the room here is whether you mean *directly*
>>>>>>> employed, or employed by a state-funded subcontractor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Directly employed. My current company does some government work but
>>>>>> in no sense am I employed by HM Government.
>>>>>
>>>>> So that clearly means GPs are not state employees. Good. Now we are
>>>>> getting somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, GPs are in an odd situation - despite being the first line of the NHS
>>>> they are generally not NHS employees. They may or may not get NHS
>>>> discounts from shops and services.
>>>
>>> I don't see why GPs wouldn't be entitled to "Blue Light" cards, which
>>> are what's required. People much less front line have them, like
>>> hospital admin staff.
>>
>> The GP who mentioned it to me was unable to take up an offer during the
>> pandemic because of not having an NHS staff card of some kind. Presumably
>> offers differed by who was offering them.
>>
> The test for one of my cards is having an appropriate e-mail address.
> Looking at e.g. my GP's NHS web pages, there is nothing to indicate
> that he or the practice has a *.nhs.uk e-mail address.
My GP practice is a partnership however they have an NHS Wales email
address.