Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <0ig*7-swz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 16:12:28 on Mon,
>> 27 Nov 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <Vsx*cynwz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 14:36:59 on Sun,
>>>> 26 Nov 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose in your case you don't actually need to use the fax system:
>>>>> somebody at HQ just directs a print job to 'your' machine and it appears as
>>>>> if a fax,
>>>>
>>>> What about the hand-annotations?
>>>
>>> PDF annotations are a thing, including via touchscreen or pen, if your
>>> device has such a thing. It's much better than print/annotate/scan,
>>> especially if a long document, as the document isn't degraded in the process
>>> (eg remains searchable).
>>
>> I don't think the sort of annotations Anna gets fit that work paradigm
>> very well.
>
> It really depends who is doing the annotating, but if they do it regularly
> then buying them a tablet with a pen is not a big ask - even the base iPad
> accepts pen input these days. That way you can get rid of the paper from
> the equation.
>

The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
on a screen.

> These days it's common for pilots to have iPads to carry navigational
> charts, fuel calculations, weight and balance, and suchlike - the apps like
> Jeppesen also accept pen input so you can annotate charts. Airlines also
> have private iPad apps so crew can eg pull up passenger information, notes
> from dispatchers, etc.
>

In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.

> Not sure how likely it might be for train crew need to pull up the sectional
> appendix when stopped at a red signal, but it beats shuffling a big stack of
> paper.
>

The paper Sectional Appendix is *far* more user-friendly than the PDF
version! But the electronic version is easier to carry ;)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
> on a screen.

Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
screen.

(until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)

> In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
> provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
> and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.

I've not used the pilot apps, but I assume they are designed for that
purposes. Displaying flashing ads would not be in the interests of safety.

> The paper Sectional Appendix is *far* more user-friendly than the PDF
> version! But the electronic version is easier to carry ;)

If they were trying there would be a Sectional Appendix app with a search
and GPS to centre on your current location. That the best they can do is a
PDF suggests they aren't trying :-)

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>> on a screen.
>
> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
> screen.
>
> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)

The iPad Pro 12.9" screen area is comparable to A4, but the 11" model would
be more convenient. Yes, the display is smaller, but is scrollable and
zoomable. It's visible and low or fairly bright light.

It can also display colour, the font size can be changed, the information
can be updated in real-time, it can show videos and play sounds. The users'
annotations could be saved and archived, including when and where they were
added.

>
>> In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
>> provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
>> and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.
>
> I've not used the pilot apps, but I assume they are designed for that
> purposes. Displaying flashing ads would not be in the interests of safety.

Obviously they don't.

https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/electronic-flight-bags/

>
>> The paper Sectional Appendix is *far* more user-friendly than the PDF
>> version! But the electronic version is easier to carry ;)
>
> If they were trying there would be a Sectional Appendix app with a search
> and GPS to centre on your current location. That the best they can do is a
> PDF suggests they aren't trying :-)

Yes, a purpose designed app could have many benefits over a pdf or paper.

If this was a new, rather than legacy, solution, absolutely nobody would
propose using hand-annotated paper and fax!

On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>> on a screen.
>
> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
> screen.
>
> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)

I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
your pocket/briefcase.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>> on a screen.
>>
>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>> screen.
>>
>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>
> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
> your pocket/briefcase.
>

Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
not going to speculate on when though.

As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
- why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
on a proper display?

On 06/12/2023 08:51, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>> on a screen.
>>>
>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>
>> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
>> your pocket/briefcase.
>>
>
> Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
> of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
> not going to speculate on when though.
>
> As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
> - why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
> on a proper display?
>

Cost
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 06/12/2023 08:51, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>>> on a screen.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>>> screen.
>>>>
>>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>>
>>> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
>>> your pocket/briefcase.
>>>
>>
>> Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
>> of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
>> not going to speculate on when though.
>>
>> As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
>> - why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
>> on a proper display?
>>
>
> Cost

A proper cab display is buttons when part of a new train design. Mind you,
I admit we have a procurement system that can’t even manage the basics like
comfortable seats that align with the windows in many cases.

On 06/12/2023 09:19, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/12/2023 08:51, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>>>> on a screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>>>> screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>>>
>>>> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
>>>> your pocket/briefcase.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
>>> of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
>>> not going to speculate on when though.
>>>
>>> As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
>>> - why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
>>> on a proper display?
>>>
>>
>> Cost
>
> A proper cab display is buttons when part of a new train design. Mind you,
> I admit we have a procurement system that can’t even manage the basics like
> comfortable seats that align with the windows in many cases.
>

But we aren't talking about new trains, just existing ones. And it needs
all the off-train resources to make it work. As Cleverley has apparently
just discovered, companies in Britain don't believe in investing for the
future, whether it is training or research.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> These days it's common for pilots to have iPads to carry navigational
>> charts, fuel calculations, weight and balance, and suchlike - the apps like
>> Jeppesen also accept pen input so you can annotate charts. Airlines also
>> have private iPad apps so crew can eg pull up passenger information, notes
>> from dispatchers, etc.
>>
>
> In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
> provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
> and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.
>

Here's a recent example from end-of-day; the original document in this
instance was printed rather than faxed (because it was my booked turn, not
covering other depot's work).

<https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1732775310033056057>

Here's a faxed one from some while earlier:
<https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1732775705866305825>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>> on a screen.
>>
>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>> screen.
>>
>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>
> The iPad Pro 12.9" screen area is comparable to A4, but the 11" model would
> be more convenient. Yes, the display is smaller, but is scrollable and
> zoomable. It's visible and low or fairly bright light.
>

Right, but in this situation they'd need a table full of iPads to shuffle
around.

> It can also display colour, the font size can be changed, the information
> can be updated in real-time, it can show videos and play sounds. The users'
> annotations could be saved and archived, including when and where they were
> added.
>
>>
>>> In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
>>> provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
>>> and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.
>>
>> I've not used the pilot apps, but I assume they are designed for that
>> purposes. Displaying flashing ads would not be in the interests of safety.
>
> Obviously they don't.
>
> https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/electronic-flight-bags/
>
>>
>>> The paper Sectional Appendix is *far* more user-friendly than the PDF
>>> version! But the electronic version is easier to carry ;)
>>
>> If they were trying there would be a Sectional Appendix app with a search
>> and GPS to centre on your current location. That the best they can do is a
>> PDF suggests they aren't trying :-)
>
> Yes, a purpose designed app could have many benefits over a pdf or paper.
>
> If this was a new, rather than legacy, solution, absolutely nobody would
> propose using hand-annotated paper and fax!
>
>
>

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>> on a screen.
>>>
>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>
>> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
>> your pocket/briefcase.
>>
>
> Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
> of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
> not going to speculate on when though.
>

Probably so.

Our crew diagrams are apparently now produced by computer (presumably not
AI as the change happened a few years ago) - apparently this means crews
are used more efficiently.

One noticeable change is that in the past, most days were of a form similar
to "Bristol to London and back with something either before or after", eg
depot or another country-end destination (or occasionally London again).

Now it often feels 'all over the place' - pass to Swindon, work to Reading,
work a different train to London and straight back to Swindon, pass to
Cardiff, work to Bristol and then depot (as a made-up but realistic
example).

It certainly doesn't *feel* more efficient - and it's less resilient to
delays. Some trains have five different drivers between Paddington and
Swansea - that's five opportunities for the relieving crew to not be in
place because of earlier delays - or indeed for that leg to be on a diagram
which is uncovered that day…

> As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
> - why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
> on a proper display?
>

Paper works well in the situation.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/12/2023 08:51, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>>>> on a screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>>>> screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>>>
>>>> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
>>>> your pocket/briefcase.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
>>> of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
>>> not going to speculate on when though.
>>>
>>> As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
>>> - why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
>>> on a proper display?
>>>
>>
>> Cost
>
> A proper cab display is buttons when part of a new train design. Mind you,
> I admit we have a procurement system that can’t even manage the basics like
> comfortable seats that align with the windows in many cases.
>
>

I already have four screens in the cab - at this rate it'll be more screens
than windscreen!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 08/12/2023 19:41, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 05/12/2023 22:54, Theo wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>>> on a screen.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>>> screen.
>>>>
>>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>>
>>> I've seen one of those, great fun but you can't fold it up and put it in
>>> your pocket/briefcase.
>>>
>>
>> Shuffling lots of bits of paper around to optimise staffing sounds like one
>> of those tasks that will be done by an AI powered system eventually. I’m
>> not going to speculate on when though.
>>
>
> Probably so.
>
> Our crew diagrams are apparently now produced by computer (presumably not
> AI as the change happened a few years ago) - apparently this means crews
> are used more efficiently.
>
> One noticeable change is that in the past, most days were of a form similar
> to "Bristol to London and back with something either before or after", eg
> depot or another country-end destination (or occasionally London again).
>
> Now it often feels 'all over the place' - pass to Swindon, work to Reading,
> work a different train to London and straight back to Swindon, pass to
> Cardiff, work to Bristol and then depot (as a made-up but realistic
> example).
>
> It certainly doesn't *feel* more efficient - and it's less resilient to
> delays. Some trains have five different drivers between Paddington and
> Swansea - that's five opportunities for the relieving crew to not be in
> place because of earlier delays - or indeed for that leg to be on a diagram
> which is uncovered that day…
I travelled Cardiff to Newton Abbott the other week and we were on our
third train crew leaving Weston-super-mere.

>
>> As to the other issue of handwritten notes being faxed and used in the cab
>> - why isn’t this information being properly captured and displayed in cab
>> on a proper display?
>>
>
> Paper works well in the situation.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> > Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> These days it's common for pilots to have iPads to carry navigational
> >> charts, fuel calculations, weight and balance, and suchlike - the apps like
> >> Jeppesen also accept pen input so you can annotate charts. Airlines also
> >> have private iPad apps so crew can eg pull up passenger information, notes
> >> from dispatchers, etc.
> >>
> >
> > In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
> > provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
> > and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.
> >
>
> Here's a recent example from end-of-day; the original document in this
> instance was printed rather than faxed (because it was my booked turn, not
> covering other depot's work).
>
> <https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1732775310033056057>
>
> Here's a faxed one from some while earlier:
> <https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1732775705866305825>

Thanks. It seems like that has several functions:

1. Letting you know your daily schedule
2. An aide memoire for things which need to be remembered (don't forget to
stop at Shipton today, and change to electric at Didcot)
3. Reinforce your situational awareness by ticking off where you last
stopped
4. Evidence in case of a dispute (eg rebut a complaint that you didn't stop
somewhere because it wasn't on your job sheet)

It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
(unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.

The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> These days it's common for pilots to have iPads to carry navigational
>>>> charts, fuel calculations, weight and balance, and suchlike - the apps like
>>>> Jeppesen also accept pen input so you can annotate charts. Airlines also
>>>> have private iPad apps so crew can eg pull up passenger information, notes
>>>> from dispatchers, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In the cab I highlight and annotate the document as the journey progresses,
>>> provided the software allows me to do the same, with the same ease of use
>>> and with no added distraction, then it might be suitable.
>>>
>>
>> Here's a recent example from end-of-day; the original document in this
>> instance was printed rather than faxed (because it was my booked turn, not
>> covering other depot's work).
>>
>> <https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1732775310033056057>
>>
>> Here's a faxed one from some while earlier:
>> <https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1732775705866305825>
>
> Thanks. It seems like that has several functions:
>
> 1. Letting you know your daily schedule
> 2. An aide memoire for things which need to be remembered (don't forget to
> stop at Shipton today, and change to electric at Didcot)
> 3. Reinforce your situational awareness by ticking off where you last
> stopped
> 4. Evidence in case of a dispute (eg rebut a complaint that you didn't stop
> somewhere because it wasn't on your job sheet)
>
> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.

Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require touch
confirmation if needed?

It could also transmit back to base.

>
> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.

Couldn't it remain in the cab? Drivers would log into it when they took
over.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The documents I get faxed to me by the control centre in Swindon, produced
>>>> when they're shuffling crews around to cover jobs which would otherwise be
>>>> uncovered. This will typically involve 20-30 sheets of A4 on a table and
>>>> I'm told by those who do it, that it's far easier that way than it would be
>>>> on a screen.
>>>
>>> Agreed, for that sort of thing paper gives you more 'real estate' than a
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> (until we get giant pen-enabled display tables)
>>
>> The iPad Pro 12.9" screen area is comparable to A4, but the 11" model would
>> be more convenient. Yes, the display is smaller, but is scrollable and
>> zoomable. It's visible and low or fairly bright light.
>>
>
> Right, but in this situation they'd need a table full of iPads to shuffle
> around.

No, just a large screen monitor (or several). The iPads would only be for
mobile users to consume the information.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
> > of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
> > forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
> > (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
> > also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>
> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require touch
> confirmation if needed?
>
> It could also transmit back to base.

All possible. Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety system.
(eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which taxiway
they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the window
and confirm)

> >
> > The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
> > you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>
> Couldn't it remain in the cab? Drivers would log into it when they took
> over.

In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn they're on
next and when breaks finish. Presumably that information would be needed
during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in the cab.

Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>
>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require touch
>> confirmation if needed?
>>
>> It could also transmit back to base.
>
> All possible. Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety system.
> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which taxiway
> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the window
> and confirm)
>
>>>
>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>
>> Couldn't it remain in the cab? Drivers would log into it when they took
>> over.
>
> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn they're on
> next and when breaks finish. Presumably that information would be needed
> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in the cab.
>
> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>

Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality would
only be in that application.

On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>
>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require touch
>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>
>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>
>> All possible. Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety system.
>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which taxiway
>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the window
>> and confirm)
>>
>>>>
>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>
>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab? Drivers would log into it when they took
>>> over.
>>
>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn they're on
>> next and when breaks finish. Presumably that information would be needed
>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in the cab.
>>
>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>
>
> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality would
> only be in that application.
>

Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
the Russians used a pencil.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10.12.2023 14:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with
>>>>> some degree
>>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points
>>>>> ('don't
>>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking
>>>>> off for you
>>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?).  It
>>>>> would
>>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require
>>>> touch
>>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>>
>>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>>
>>> All possible.  Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety
>>> system.
>>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which
>>> taxiway
>>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the
>>> window
>>> and confirm)
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab?  Drivers would log into it when they
>>>> took
>>>> over.
>>>
>>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn
>>> they're on
>>> next and when breaks finish.  Presumably that information would be
>>> needed
>>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in
>>> the cab.
>>>
>>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
>> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
>> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality
>> would
>> only be in that application.
>>
>
> Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
> millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
> the Russians used a pencil.

Pencils are not a great idea for use in space. They tend to shed
graphite dust when used, which in a zero gravity environment, can cause
issues as the electrically conductive dust can interact badly with
electrical systems.

Robin

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
>>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
>>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
>>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
>>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require touch
>>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>>
>>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>>
>>> All possible. Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety system.
>>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which taxiway
>>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the window
>>> and confirm)
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab? Drivers would log into it when they took
>>>> over.
>>>
>>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn they're on
>>> next and when breaks finish. Presumably that information would be needed
>>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in the cab.
>>>
>>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
>> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
>> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality would
>> only be in that application.
>>
>
> Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
> millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
> the Russians used a pencil.
>

Apart from that myth being completely untrue, this is another example of
public sector inefficiency. A much bigger example is the NHS (allegedly the
last bastion of the fax and paper-heavy low productivity).

Wes Streeting: NHS uses every winter crisis as an excuse for cash

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d4bc9a11-ff3e-4cd6-880d-b8349642edbb?shareToken=e58c5fd3f8fdd2ce00e2f15d89d5c2a0>

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 15:11:54 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 10.12.2023 14:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with
>>>>>> some degree
>>>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points
>>>>>> ('don't
>>>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking
>>>>>> off for you
>>>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?).  It
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require
>>>>> touch
>>>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>>>
>>>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>>>
>>>> All possible.  Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety
>>>> system.
>>>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which
>>>> taxiway
>>>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the
>>>> window
>>>> and confirm)
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab?  Drivers would log into it when they
>>>>> took
>>>>> over.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn
>>>> they're on
>>>> next and when breaks finish.  Presumably that information would be
>>>> needed
>>>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in
>>>> the cab.
>>>>
>>>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
>>> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
>>> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality
>>> would
>>> only be in that application.
>>>
>>
>> Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
>> millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
>> the Russians used a pencil.
>
>Pencils are not a great idea for use in space. They tend to shed
>graphite dust when used, which in a zero gravity environment, can cause
>issues as the electrically conductive dust can interact badly with
>electrical systems.
>
Other forms of "lead" are available, e.g. wax or dye-based.

On 10/12/2023 16:36, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with some degree
>>>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points ('don't
>>>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking off for you
>>>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?). It would
>>>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require touch
>>>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>>>
>>>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>>>
>>>> All possible. Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety system.
>>>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which taxiway
>>>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the window
>>>> and confirm)
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>>>
>>>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab? Drivers would log into it when they took
>>>>> over.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn they're on
>>>> next and when breaks finish. Presumably that information would be needed
>>>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in the cab.
>>>>
>>>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
>>> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
>>> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality would
>>> only be in that application.
>>>
>>
>> Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
>> millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
>> the Russians used a pencil.
>>
>
> Apart from that myth being completely untrue, this is another example of
> public sector inefficiency.

If it is untrue how can it be an example of public sector inefficiency?
It's more an example of right-wing prejudice.

A much bigger example is the NHS (allegedly the
> last bastion of the fax and paper-heavy low productivity).
>
> Wes Streeting: NHS uses every winter crisis as an excuse for cash
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d4bc9a11-ff3e-4cd6-880d-b8349642edbb?shareToken=e58c5fd3f8fdd2ce00e2f15d89d5c2a0>
>

So Streeting denies that more people use NHS services in winter then?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10.12.2023 18:18, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 15:11:54 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10.12.2023 14:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with
>>>>>>> some degree
>>>>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points
>>>>>>> ('don't
>>>>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking
>>>>>>> off for you
>>>>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?).  It
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require
>>>>>> touch
>>>>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>>>>
>>>>> All possible.  Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety
>>>>> system.
>>>>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which
>>>>> taxiway
>>>>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the
>>>>> window
>>>>> and confirm)
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes around with
>>>>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab?  Drivers would log into it when they
>>>>>> took
>>>>>> over.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn
>>>>> they're on
>>>>> next and when breaks finish.  Presumably that information would be
>>>>> needed
>>>>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in
>>>>> the cab.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
>>>> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used while
>>>> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality
>>>> would
>>>> only be in that application.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
>>> millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
>>> the Russians used a pencil.
>>
>> Pencils are not a great idea for use in space. They tend to shed
>> graphite dust when used, which in a zero gravity environment, can cause
>> issues as the electrically conductive dust can interact badly with
>> electrical systems.
>>
> Other forms of "lead" are available, e.g. wax or dye-based.

They are, but each comes with its own limitations in usefulness. The
actual space pen was developed independently without any request being
made or payment towards development. It was offered to NASA for testing,
and when NASA decided it was a better option than the alternatives, they
bought them for under $3 per pen (1960s prices). The Soviets also bough
the pen, commercially, and used it for their space program too, also
deeming it better than the alternatives.

Robin

On 11/12/2023 08:48, Bob wrote:
> On 10.12.2023 18:18, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 15:11:54 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10.12.2023 14:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 10/12/2023 10:59, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It seems like an iPad/phone app with GPS would cover those with
>>>>>>>> some degree
>>>>>>>> of automation - it could flash up messages at particular points
>>>>>>>> ('don't
>>>>>>>> forget to switch to electric in 1 mile'), and handle the ticking
>>>>>>>> off for you
>>>>>>>> (unless the action of ticking off helps you remember things?).  It
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> also be an independent record of events separate from the OTMR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably the app could also generate audio warnings, and require
>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>> confirmation if needed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could also transmit back to base.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All possible.  Depends how much you want it to be part of the safety
>>>>>> system.
>>>>>> (eg for the pilot apps they get a moving airport map to show which
>>>>>> taxiway
>>>>>> they're on, but it's simply an aid - they still have to look out the
>>>>>> window
>>>>>> and confirm)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The key here would be the iPad (or phone or whatever) goes
>>>>>>>> around with
>>>>>>>> you, rather than being something you leave in the cab.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Couldn't it remain in the cab?  Drivers would log into it when they
>>>>>>> took
>>>>>>> over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the case of Anna's job sheet, it has things like which turn
>>>>>> they're on
>>>>>> next and when breaks finish.  Presumably that information would be
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>> during layovers, especially for deadhead legs where they aren't in
>>>>>> the cab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although some combination of smartphone and in-cab tablet could work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I was assuming that the info would also be delivered to a mobile
>>>>> device carried by the driver, but the in-cab screen would be used
>>>>> while
>>>>> actually at the controls. The full interactive, dynamic functionality
>>>>> would
>>>>> only be in that application.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can't help recalling the space race myth about the Americans spending
>>>> millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in zero gravity,
>>>> the Russians used a pencil.
>>>
>>> Pencils are not a great idea for use in space. They tend to shed
>>> graphite dust when used, which in a zero gravity environment, can cause
>>> issues as the electrically conductive dust can interact badly with
>>> electrical systems.
>>>
>> Other forms of "lead" are available, e.g. wax or dye-based.
>
> They are, but each comes with its own limitations in usefulness. The
> actual space pen was developed independently without any request being
> made or payment towards development. It was offered to NASA for testing,
> and when NASA decided it was a better option than the alternatives, they
> bought them for under $3 per pen (1960s prices). The Soviets also bough
> the pen, commercially, and used it for their space program too, also
> deeming it better than the alternatives.
>

As an aside, in the film Apollo 13, Lovell (Hanks) is shown using a
pencil to transfer the info from the CSM computer to the LEM, including
rubbing mistakes out!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.