Am 28.11.2023 um 18:12 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 11:23:19 +0100
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 28.11.2023 um 10:22 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 17:51:09 +0100
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 27.11.2023 um 16:59 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>> Surely the 3 rail solution just worked and there was nothing to wrong
>> unlike
>>>>> a gaage changer and the complicated bogies on the trains. Why change it?
>>>>
>>>> You did not quite understand "after 90 years of failing to find 250
>>>> millions to build 40 miles of 3 rail (crossing a busy main line), we
>>>
>>> 250 million francs to lay 40 miles of an extra rail?? Was it going to be made
>>
>>> out of gold or something?
>>
>> There was the challenge of needing to cross a high-speed line in Spietz:
>
> Whats the challenge? Lay the rail across it.

What's the challenge of electrifying a 2-mile extension with third rail?
Some things just won't be approved, and then a different solution must
be found.

In Brig, the solution to the challenge was to build a tunnel for the
1000-mm line underneath the main line. In Spietz, BLS requested
something similar, leading to the 'golden extra-rail' price tag.

Rolf

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 14:04:32 +0100
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 28.11.2023 um 18:12 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 11:23:19 +0100
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>> Am 28.11.2023 um 10:22 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 17:51:09 +0100
>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>> Am 27.11.2023 um 16:59 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>> Surely the 3 rail solution just worked and there was nothing to wrong
>>> unlike
>>>>>> a gaage changer and the complicated bogies on the trains. Why change it?
>>>>>
>>>>> You did not quite understand "after 90 years of failing to find 250
>>>>> millions to build 40 miles of 3 rail (crossing a busy main line), we
>>>>
>>>> 250 million francs to lay 40 miles of an extra rail?? Was it going to be
>made
>>>
>>>> out of gold or something?
>>>
>>> There was the challenge of needing to cross a high-speed line in Spietz:
>>
>> Whats the challenge? Lay the rail across it.
>
>What's the challenge of electrifying a 2-mile extension with third rail?

There isn't one. Poor old Merseyrail are probably regretting their decision
now since the 777s are proving somewhat unreliable when running on battery
power amongst other things apparently and they won't be able to run the old 3rd
rail only stock to the new terminus as cover. What a bunch of muppets.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-merseyrail-train-fleet-h
it-27060659
https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2123797-metro-mayor-slams-train-m
aker-stadler-over-frustratingly-poor-performance-of-new-fleet

>Some things just won't be approved, and then a different solution must
>be found.

It would have been approved but I suspect they thought battery power would be
a cheaper option given they were hoping to use it elsewhere anyway.

>In Brig, the solution to the challenge was to build a tunnel for the
>1000-mm line underneath the main line. In Spietz, BLS requested
>something similar, leading to the 'golden extra-rail' price tag.

So politics, not engineering.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 14:04:32 +0100
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 28.11.2023 um 18:12 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 11:23:19 +0100
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 28.11.2023 um 10:22 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 17:51:09 +0100
>>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 27.11.2023 um 16:59 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>> Surely the 3 rail solution just worked and there was nothing to wrong
>>>> unlike
>>>>>>> a gaage changer and the complicated bogies on the trains. Why change it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You did not quite understand "after 90 years of failing to find 250
>>>>>> millions to build 40 miles of 3 rail (crossing a busy main line), we
>>>>>
>>>>> 250 million francs to lay 40 miles of an extra rail?? Was it going to be
>> made
>>>>
>>>>> out of gold or something?
>>>>
>>>> There was the challenge of needing to cross a high-speed line in Spietz:
>>>
>>> Whats the challenge? Lay the rail across it.
>>
>> What's the challenge of electrifying a 2-mile extension with third rail?
>
> There isn't one. Poor old Merseyrail are probably regretting their decision
> now since the 777s are proving somewhat unreliable when running on battery
> power amongst other things apparently and they won't be able to run the old 3rd
> rail only stock to the new terminus as cover. What a bunch of muppets.
>
> https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-merseyrail-train-fleet-h
> it-27060659
> https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2123797-metro-mayor-slams-train-m
> aker-stadler-over-frustratingly-poor-performance-of-new-fleet

What's the betting it's software issues?

>> Some things just won't be approved, and then a different solution must
>> be found.
>
> It would have been approved but I suspect they thought battery power would be
> a cheaper option given they were hoping to use it elsewhere anyway.

Yes

On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 15:55:22 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-merseyrail-train-fleet-
>h
>> it-27060659
>>
>https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2123797-metro-mayor-slams-train-
>m
>> aker-stadler-over-frustratingly-poor-performance-of-new-fleet
>
>What's the betting it's software issues?

Wouldn't be surprised. Can't imagine there's anything fundamentally wrong
with the batteries themselves. It does seem to be the case than train
manufacturers get the hardware working then let the customer unwittingly beta
test the software in the field as serious software faults seem to happen time
and again with new trains.

On 04.12.23 17:01, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 15:55:22 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-merseyrail-train-fleet-
>> h
>>> it-27060659
>>>
>> https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2123797-metro-mayor-slams-train-
>> m
>>> aker-stadler-over-frustratingly-poor-performance-of-new-fleet
>>
>> What's the betting it's software issues?
>
> Wouldn't be surprised. Can't imagine there's anything fundamentally wrong
> with the batteries themselves. It does seem to be the case than train
> manufacturers get the hardware working then let the customer unwittingly beta
> test the software in the field as serious software faults seem to happen time
> and again with new trains.

Trains are (and always have been) produced in too few numbers to do the
kind of testing needed to fully perfect the design. In the course of the
history of the railways, the number of designs that have not needed some
modification after entering service is far outnumbered by those that have.

Robin

On 04/12/2023 15:55, Recliner wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 14:04:32 +0100
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>> Am 28.11.2023 um 18:12 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 11:23:19 +0100
>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>> Am 28.11.2023 um 10:22 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 17:51:09 +0100
>>>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 27.11.2023 um 16:59 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>>>>>>> Surely the 3 rail solution just worked and there was nothing to wrong
>>>>> unlike
>>>>>>>> a gaage changer and the complicated bogies on the trains. Why change it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You did not quite understand "after 90 years of failing to find 250
>>>>>>> millions to build 40 miles of 3 rail (crossing a busy main line), we
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 250 million francs to lay 40 miles of an extra rail?? Was it going to be
>>> made
>>>>>
>>>>>> out of gold or something?
>>>>>
>>>>> There was the challenge of needing to cross a high-speed line in Spietz:
>>>>
>>>> Whats the challenge? Lay the rail across it.
>>>
>>> What's the challenge of electrifying a 2-mile extension with third rail?
>>
>> There isn't one. Poor old Merseyrail are probably regretting their decision
>> now since the 777s are proving somewhat unreliable when running on battery
>> power amongst other things apparently and they won't be able to run the old 3rd
>> rail only stock to the new terminus as cover. What a bunch of muppets.
>>
>> https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-merseyrail-train-fleet-h
>> it-27060659
>> https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2123797-metro-mayor-slams-train-m
>> aker-stadler-over-frustratingly-poor-performance-of-new-fleet
>
> What's the betting it's software issues?
>

Or over-sensitive sensors connected to computers. That was apparently
the cause of many failures when the Freightliner Class 70s were new.
Sensor thinks there is a problem - computer tells loco to stop.
(according to a Freightliner official some years sgo.)