I don't see this here

Glasgow subway's new trains enter service

New modernised trains have come into passenger service on Glasgow's subway.

Driverless apparently

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-67687895

On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>
> Driverless apparently

Correction

They are planned to become driverless later.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>
>> Driverless apparently
>
>
>
> Correction
>
> They are planned to become driverless later.

Not just driverless, but unattended. That will be a first in the UK.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>
>> Driverless apparently
>
>
>
> Correction
>
> They are planned to become driverless later.
>
>
Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
has been one of the issues.

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>
>>> Driverless apparently
>>
>>
>>
>> Correction
>>
>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>
>>
>Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>has been one of the issues.

Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
this procedure not referred to a ghost train?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Correction
>>>
>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>
>>>
>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>> has been one of the issues.
>
> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>

And what happens if the train under test fails?

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Correction
>>>>
>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>> has been one of the issues.
>>
>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>
>And what happens if the train under test fails?

No risk to the public, I would suggest. I assume the same would apply
on the Barrhead line. They must have assessed the probability of a
complete halt as sufficiently low to justify the process.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Correction
>>>>>
>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>
>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>
>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>
> No risk to the public, I would suggest. I assume the same would apply
> on the Barrhead line. They must have assessed the probability of a
> complete halt as sufficiently low to justify the process.
>
I wouldn’t take the risk of a fault free running test bringing the Glasgow
Subway to a halt. The Barrhead line likely has sidings where a dead train
could be put.

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:40:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>
>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>
>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>
>> No risk to the public, I would suggest. I assume the same would apply
>> on the Barrhead line. They must have assessed the probability of a
>> complete halt as sufficiently low to justify the process.
>>
>I wouldn’t take the risk of a fault free running test bringing the Glasgow
>Subway to a halt. The Barrhead line likely has sidings where a dead train
>could be put.

Okay, this must be the judgement. I wonder if 'getting the requisite
number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
has been one of the issues' means they miscalculated the number of
hours available or more faults occurred than expected.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 17:40:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>
>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>
>>> No risk to the public, I would suggest. I assume the same would apply
>>> on the Barrhead line. They must have assessed the probability of a
>>> complete halt as sufficiently low to justify the process.
>>>
>> I wouldn’t take the risk of a fault free running test bringing the Glasgow
>> Subway to a halt. The Barrhead line likely has sidings where a dead train
>> could be put.
>
> Okay, this must be the judgement. I wonder if 'getting the requisite
> number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
> has been one of the issues' means they miscalculated the number of
> hours available or more faults occurred than expected.
>

The latter I suspect. I assume anything other than a trivial fault resets
the clock to zero.

On 12/12/2023 17:14, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Correction
>>>>>
>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>
>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>
>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>
> No risk to the public, I would suggest. I assume the same would apply
> on the Barrhead line. They must have assessed the probability of a
> complete halt as sufficiently low to justify the process.

There is a risk to the public if they are stuck on the system for hours
if a train under test fails.

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Correction
>>>>
>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>> has been one of the issues.
>>
>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>
>
>And what happens if the train under test fails?

Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Correction
>>>>>
>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>
>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>
>>
>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>
> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>

But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
recovery during passenger hours.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>
>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>
>>>
>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>
>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>
>
> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
> recovery during passenger hours.
>
>

How busy is the system after the evening peak?
Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
public service while the other is used for testing.
Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>
>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>
>>
>> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>
>>
>
> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
> public service while the other is used for testing.
> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>
> GH
>
>
There’s a pretty lively use of the Subway in the evening in my experience.
There’s a huge student population in Glasgow. 180,000 if some sources are
to be believed. The service isn’t as frequent as London tube users are used
to, so putting the load onto the other circle would increase crowding quite
a lot.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>>
>>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>>
>>>
>>> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
>>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>> public service while the other is used for testing.
>> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>
>> GH
>>
>>
> There’s a pretty lively use of the Subway in the evening in my experience.
> There’s a huge student population in Glasgow. 180,000 if some sources are
> to be believed. The service isn’t as frequent as London tube users are used
> to, so putting the load onto the other circle would increase crowding quite
> a lot.
>
>

Every 7 minutes when I was there mid-afternoon recently.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>
>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>
>>
>> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>
>>
>
>How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>public service while the other is used for testing.
>Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>
>GH
How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
everybody having to travel widdershins?

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:46:44 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>>
>>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>>
>>>
>>> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
>>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>>Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>>about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>>public service while the other is used for testing.
>>Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>
>>GH
>How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
>everybody having to travel widdershins?
>
It carries on with one circle non-operational as occasionally
announced in travel bulletins. There don't seem to be widespread
protests or the usual claims of Holyrood incompetence from DRoss,
*urdo Fraser or Baillie.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:36:21 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:46:44 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>
>>On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>>>
>>>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
>>>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>>>Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>>>about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>>>public service while the other is used for testing.
>>>Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>>
>>>GH
>>How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
>>everybody having to travel widdershins?
>>
>It carries on with one circle non-operational as occasionally
>announced in travel bulletins. There don't seem to be widespread
>protests or the usual claims of Holyrood incompetence from DRoss,
>*urdo Fraser or Baillie.

I assume by the time the trains reach final test stage, the
probability of a failure will be very low (perhaps lower than the
existing aging trains?) and extra time for testing would presumably
allow the new trains to enter service earlier. I am sure the Glasgow
travelling public could cope with a message 'The next train is not in
service. Please stand back from the platform edge'.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:

>> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>> public service while the other is used for testing.
>> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>
>> GH
> How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
> everybody having to travel widdershins?
>

I haven’t heard that expression outside of use by a couple of my mates
and myself who use it occasionally since it was introduced to us by another
friend, he lives in the Shetlands so is in the right part of Britain to be
aware of it.

Can only be applied to the inner circle mind, the other would have to be
Deosil which doesn’t sound as much fun.

GH

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:36:21 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:46:44 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>>>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>>>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But tested outside of normal service. You don’t want to be testing failure
>>>>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>>>> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>>>> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>>>> public service while the other is used for testing.
>>>> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>>>
>>>> GH
>>> How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
>>> everybody having to travel widdershins?
>>>
>> It carries on with one circle non-operational as occasionally
>> announced in travel bulletins. There don't seem to be widespread
>> protests or the usual claims of Holyrood incompetence from DRoss,
>> *urdo Fraser or Baillie.
>
> I assume by the time the trains reach final test stage, the
> probability of a failure will be very low (perhaps lower than the
> existing aging trains?) and extra time for testing would presumably
> allow the new trains to enter service earlier. I am sure the Glasgow
> travelling public could cope with a message 'The next train is not in
> service. Please stand back from the platform edge'.
>

Presumably the problem is that there's no test track that can be used for
extensive mileage accumulation testing? Standard gauge stock has plenty of
dedicated test tracks available and also quiet parts of the operational
network, so they should be already well tested before arriving on their
target routes. They still need to be tested on their own routes, but that's
the last phase of a long testing programme.

Also, these trains will be running unattended when in full service. That
can probably only be tested in a full possession, with no passengers
around.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:08:29 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:36:21 +0000, Charles Ellson
>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:46:44 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/12/2023 11:22, JMB99 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Driverless apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Correction
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They are planned to become driverless later.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the post. I had got an email recently from SPT saying they were
>>>>>>>>>> hoping to start getting some into service before the end of the year.
>>>>>>>>>> Reading between the lines of their email it seems that getting the
>>>>>>>>>> requisite number of hours of fault free running during non passenger hours
>>>>>>>>>> has been one of the issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not run them 'out of service' during passenger hours? I believe
>>>>>>>>> this is how the electric trains were tested on the Barrhead line. Is
>>>>>>>>> this procedure not referred to a ghost train?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And what happens if the train under test fails?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same as any other test train run, such as an mileage accumulation run
>>>>>>> of a new train entering service. You put into effect the procedures to
>>>>>>> deal with the failure. They need to be tested too, you know?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But tested outside of normal service. You don?t want to be testing failure
>>>>>> recovery during passenger hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>>>>> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>>>>> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>>>>> public service while the other is used for testing.
>>>>> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>>>>
>>>>> GH
>>>> How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
>>>> everybody having to travel widdershins?
>>>>
>>> It carries on with one circle non-operational as occasionally
>>> announced in travel bulletins. There don't seem to be widespread
>>> protests or the usual claims of Holyrood incompetence from DRoss,
>>> *urdo Fraser or Baillie.
>>
>> I assume by the time the trains reach final test stage, the
>> probability of a failure will be very low (perhaps lower than the
>> existing aging trains?) and extra time for testing would presumably
>> allow the new trains to enter service earlier. I am sure the Glasgow
>> travelling public could cope with a message 'The next train is not in
>> service. Please stand back from the platform edge'.
>>
>
>Presumably the problem is that there's no test track that can be used for
>extensive mileage accumulation testing? Standard gauge stock has plenty of
>dedicated test tracks available and also quiet parts of the operational
>network, so they should be already well tested before arriving on their
>target routes. They still need to be tested on their own routes, but that's
>the last phase of a long testing programme.
>
>Also, these trains will be running unattended when in full service. That
>can probably only be tested in a full possession, with no passengers
>around.

Last paragraph is a very good point, that I had totally overlooked.

On 14/12/2023 12:52, Marland wrote:
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>>> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>>> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>>> public service while the other is used for testing.
>>> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>>
>>> GH
>> How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
>> everybody having to travel widdershins?
>>
>
> I haven’t heard that expression outside of use by a couple of my mates
> and myself who use it occasionally since it was introduced to us by another
> friend, he lives in the Shetlands so is in the right part of Britain to be
> aware of it.
>
> Can only be applied to the inner circle mind, the other would have to be
> Deosil which doesn’t sound as much fun.
>
> GH

Whilst Wikipedia is not a definitive source it does say "Widdershins
comes from Middle Low German weddersinnes, literally "against the way"
(i.e. "in the opposite direction"), from widersinnen "to go against",
from Old High German elements widar "against" and sinnen "to travel,
go", related to sind "journey""

The Shetland dialect is Norn. However, Norn is a germanic based language
so there may be a connection, but is not a word I have heard in use in
my many years living here.

--
Colin

On 14/12/2023 16:27, ColinR wrote:
> The Shetland dialect is Norn. However, Norn is a germanic based language
> so there may be a connection, but is not a word I have heard in use in
> my many years living here.

When I went on a trip to Shetland with a couple of others some years
ago, one fancied himself as a good mimic and kept ding something like
Rab C Nesbitt on the ferry. It was some time after we got to Shetland
before we could persuade him that they do not speak that.

On 14 Dec 2023 12:52:49 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
wrote:

>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On 13 Dec 2023 20:28:54 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>> How busy is the system after the evening peak?
>>> Compared to many systems it is quite a simple layout and it only takes
>>> about 25-30 minutes to do a complete circuit. One circle could be kept in
>>> public service while the other is used for testing.
>>> Some people would have longer journeys but not by too much.
>>>
>>> GH
>> How does the system cope with a failure on one rail? Can it handle
>> everybody having to travel widdershins?
>>
>
>I haven’t heard that expression outside of use by a couple of my mates
>and myself who use it occasionally since it was introduced to us by another
>friend, he lives in the Shetlands so is in the right part of Britain to be
>aware of it.
>
>Can only be applied to the inner circle mind, the other would have to be
>Deosil which doesn’t sound as much fun.
>
Deiseil (Deosil is Gaeilge) = southward, sunward, right/clockwise.