<https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
> <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>

"Page Not Found"

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
>> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
>
>
> "Page Not Found"
>

Works for me.

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
>> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
>
>
> "Page Not Found"

Oh, the irony!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <uli8i1$21638$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:14:11 on Fri, 15 Dec
2023, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
>> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
>
>"Page Not Found"

Known Thunderbird bug.

Glue it back together, you know it makes sense.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 19:14:11 +0000, ColinR
<rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
>> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
>
>
>"Page Not Found"

One must edit the eerily Ely space inserted by our SFP.

In message <kqqpnidkuko85a0gkb5r7cidndiivtmhta@4ax.com>, at 16:17:16 on
Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 19:14:11 +0000, ColinR
><rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
>>> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
>>
>>
>>"Page Not Found"
>
>One must edit the eerily Ely space inserted by our SFP.

No space in the original, and even if there was, white space in such a
position is to be ignored.

[I can't believe we are having this discussion again for the umpteenth
time this year, let alone the last twenty years]
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2023 21:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uli8i1$21638$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:14:11 on Fri, 15 Dec
> 2023, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 15/12/2023 16:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>   <https://www.cityam.com/trainline-share-price-soars-after-government-
>>> scraps-rival-ticket-app/>
>>
>> "Page Not Found"
>
> Known Thunderbird bug.
>
> Glue it back together, you know it makes sense.

Did that yesterday and got the above message. Did same today and site
worked...

--
Colin

More in The Times:

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>

In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>More in The Times:
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>

"On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
rail ticket retailer."

So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>More in The Times:
>>
>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>
>"On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>rail ticket retailer."
>
>So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.

GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter complain more loudly than the former rejoice).

If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.

On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> More in The Times:
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>
>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>> rail ticket retailer."
>>
>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>
> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>
> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.

Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some problem that I haven't thought of?

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>
>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>
>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>
>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>
>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>
> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
> problem that I haven't thought of?

They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.

In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.

On 17/12/2023 23:11, Recliner wrote:
> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>
>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>
>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>>
>>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>
>>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>
>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
>> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
>> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
>> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>> problem that I haven't thought of?
>
> They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
> losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.
>
> In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
> but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.
>

On the contrary, in a simplified system, basic ticket prices will be
inevitably higher.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 23:00:31 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
wrote:

>On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>
>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>
>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>
>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>
>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>
>Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some problem that I haven't thought of?

Oi! I eagerly await GA's toc-specific 'hare fares' when they come out,
a couple of times a year, getting me multiple GA-only journeys for
less than any other available fare even allowing for my railcard.
Most of my trips could only be undertaken on GA but that isn't always
the case, e.g. Stratford - Shenfield or Norwich/Cambridge - Ely -
P'bro. Well worth the small inconvenience.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 23:11, Recliner wrote:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>
>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>
>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>>>
>>>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>>>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>>>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>>
>>>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>>>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>
>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>>> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
>>> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
>>> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
>>> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>>> problem that I haven't thought of?
>>
>> They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
>> losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.
>>
>> In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
>> but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.
>>
>
> On the contrary, in a simplified system, basic ticket prices will be
> inevitably higher.
>

Why?

The whole idea of a simplified system is that basic ticket prices are
lower, but the plethora of discounts disappears. That's the opposite of the
current system, where basic walk-up, any-time tickets are mouth wateringly
expensive, but then there are various discounts available if they restrict
their use to certain trains at certain times that make them affordable.
Overall, the average paid will be roughly the same, but there will be many
losers and winners.

In message <ku9csfF8qeaU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:00:31 on Sun, 17
Dec 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat,
>>>
>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>
>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>
>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.

>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the
>>tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its
>>simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then
>>the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>
>Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for
>the independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All
>the money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element
>in ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>problem that I haven't thought of?

Indeed there is. Ticket prices are "what the market will stand", and
people will pay *more* to get a posh InterCity style train, than an all
shacks local service. So you might as well grab the money from the
former, while retaining the patronage of the latter who simply don't
have the funds to "travel posh".
--
Roland Perry

In message <b8UfN.42248$ogWb.1523@fx14.ams1>, at 09:19:03 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 23:11, Recliner wrote:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>>>>
>>>>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>>>>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>>>>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>>>
>>>>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>>>>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>>
>>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>>>> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
>>>> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
>>>> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
>>>> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>>>> problem that I haven't thought of?
>>>
>>> They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
>>> losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.
>>>
>>> In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
>>> but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.
>>>
>>
>> On the contrary, in a simplified system, basic ticket prices will be
>> inevitably higher.
>
>Why?
>
>The whole idea of a simplified system is that basic ticket prices are
>lower, but the plethora of discounts disappears. That's the opposite of the
>current system, where basic walk-up, any-time tickets are mouth wateringly
>expensive, but then there are various discounts available if they restrict
>their use to certain trains at certain times that make them affordable.

And also spreads the load so that the more attractive trains aren't
overcrowded, and the less attractive trains don't transport mainly air.

>Overall, the average paid will be roughly the same,

Only if there's an over-riding imperative to be revenue-neutral, and
no-one trusts the DfT to ensure that.

>but there will be many losers and winners.
>

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <b8UfN.42248$ogWb.1523@fx14.ams1>, at 09:19:03 on Mon, 18 Dec
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2023 23:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>>>>>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>>>>>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>>>>>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>>>>> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
>>>>> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
>>>>> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
>>>>> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>>>>> problem that I haven't thought of?
>>>>
>>>> They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
>>>> losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.
>>>>
>>>> In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
>>>> but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> On the contrary, in a simplified system, basic ticket prices will be
>>> inevitably higher.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> The whole idea of a simplified system is that basic ticket prices are
>> lower, but the plethora of discounts disappears. That's the opposite of the
>> current system, where basic walk-up, any-time tickets are mouth wateringly
>> expensive, but then there are various discounts available if they restrict
>> their use to certain trains at certain times that make them affordable.
>
> And also spreads the load so that the more attractive trains aren't
> overcrowded, and the less attractive trains don't transport mainly air.

Yes, that's definitely one of the benefits. Hopefully the Scottish trials
are successful.

>
>> Overall, the average paid will be roughly the same,
>
> Only if there's an over-riding imperative to be revenue-neutral, and
> no-one trusts the DfT to ensure that.

True, though I suppose it's HMT that will be setting the rules. It's
overriding aim is bound to be to reduce the subsidy.

In message <4730oih7ajlgcurs1ebv18j4bgep2lr46l@4ax.com>, at 09:16:17 on
Mon, 18 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:

>Most of my trips could only be undertaken on GA but that isn't always
>the case, e.g. Stratford - Shenfield or Norwich/Cambridge - Ely -
>P'bro. Well worth the small inconvenience.

Indeed, I have travelled Ely-Peterborough (and change) on all of EMR, XC
and GA, according sometimes the price as well as the timetable.

I'm told the cheapest way to get from Cambridge to London is an
LNER-and-Connections ticket changing at Stevenage.

Then there's the whole issue of "Not London" tickets being often
considerably cheaper. So would any simplification involve scrapping that
difference? A trip like Cambridge-Birmingham is superficially just as
convenient via KingsCross/Euston as Peterborough&Leicester.

Then there's routes *from* London eg SWRT and GWR routes offer
differently priced alternatives (and different comfort/speed).
--
Roland Perry

On 18/12/2023 09:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ku9csfF8qeaU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:00:31 on Sun, 17
> Dec 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat,
>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>
>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>
>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>
>>>  GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the
>>> tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its
>>> simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>  If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then
>>> the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>
>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the
>> options for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets
>> (except for the independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of
>> course).  All the money now goes to government so there's really no
>> incentive element in ticket prices between one operator and another.
>> Or is there some problem that I haven't thought of?
>
> Indeed there is. Ticket prices are "what the market will stand", and
> people will pay *more* to get a posh InterCity style train, than an all
> shacks local service. So you might as well grab the money from the
> former, while retaining the patronage of the latter who simply don't
> have the funds to "travel posh".

I sometimes pay a premium NOT to travel on a posh InterCity style train.

Last time I went to Birmingham I could have paid less than to travel via
Bristol Parkway railway station and a voyager but I chose the more
expensive fare involving a BR Class 170 for the greater comfort.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/12/2023 09:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ku9csfF8qeaU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:00:31 on Sun, 17
>> Dec 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat,
>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>
>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>
>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>
>>>>  GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the
>>>> tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its
>>>> simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>>  If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then
>>>> the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>
>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the
>>> options for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets
>>> (except for the independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of
>>> course).  All the money now goes to government so there's really no
>>> incentive element in ticket prices between one operator and another.
>>> Or is there some problem that I haven't thought of?
>>
>> Indeed there is. Ticket prices are "what the market will stand", and
>> people will pay *more* to get a posh InterCity style train, than an all
>> shacks local service. So you might as well grab the money from the
>> former, while retaining the patronage of the latter who simply don't
>> have the funds to "travel posh".
>
> I sometimes pay a premium NOT to travel on a posh InterCity style train.
>
> Last time I went to Birmingham I could have paid less than to travel via
> Bristol Parkway railway station and a voyager but I chose the more
> expensive fare involving a BR Class 170 for the greater comfort.
>

The class 170 came years after the demise of BR. It was based on the class
168, as specified and ordered by Adrian Shooter of Chiltern. That was the
first post-privatisation new train order. And the Chiltern 168s are still
very nice trains.

On 18/12/2023 09:19, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 23:11, Recliner wrote:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>>>>
>>>>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>>>>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>>>>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>>>
>>>>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>>>>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>>
>>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>>>> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
>>>> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
>>>> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
>>>> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>>>> problem that I haven't thought of?
>>>
>>> They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
>>> losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.
>>>
>>> In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
>>> but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.
>>>
>>
>> On the contrary, in a simplified system, basic ticket prices will be
>> inevitably higher.
>>
>
> Why?
>
> The whole idea of a simplified system is that basic ticket prices are
> lower, but the plethora of discounts disappears. That's the opposite of the
> current system, where basic walk-up, any-time tickets are mouth wateringly
> expensive, but then there are various discounts available if they restrict
> their use to certain trains at certain times that make them affordable.
> Overall, the average paid will be roughly the same, but there will be many
> losers and winners.
>

The whole idea of a simplified system is to remove the incentives to use
off-peak services and advance booking. It is a system that works well,
despite the inevitable moaning by goat-herders. Airlines all over the
world have used it for any years. If you discourage people from
travelling then the basic fares will have to go up to compensate for the
loss of revenue, already a problem post-Covid.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/12/2023 09:19, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 17/12/2023 23:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat, 16
>>>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the tech
>>>>>> in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>>>> cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its simplified
>>>>>> tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>>>> complain more loudly than the former rejoice).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then the
>>>>>> ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the options
>>>>> for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets (except for the
>>>>> independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of course). All the
>>>>> money now goes to government so there's really no incentive element in
>>>>> ticket prices between one operator and another. Or is there some
>>>>> problem that I haven't thought of?
>>>>
>>>> They're a form of discount ticket. Taking them away will create only
>>>> losers, but no winners, and would probably lose price-sensitive traffic.
>>>>
>>>> In a simplified system, basic ticket prices should be significantly lower,
>>>> but with many of the complicated, restrictive discounts removed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> On the contrary, in a simplified system, basic ticket prices will be
>>> inevitably higher.
>>>
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> The whole idea of a simplified system is that basic ticket prices are
>> lower, but the plethora of discounts disappears. That's the opposite of the
>> current system, where basic walk-up, any-time tickets are mouth wateringly
>> expensive, but then there are various discounts available if they restrict
>> their use to certain trains at certain times that make them affordable.
>> Overall, the average paid will be roughly the same, but there will be many
>> losers and winners.
>>
>
> The whole idea of a simplified system is to remove the incentives to use
> off-peak services and advance booking. It is a system that works well,
> despite the inevitable moaning by goat-herders. Airlines all over the
> world have used it for any years. If you discourage people from
> travelling then the basic fares will have to go up to compensate for the
> loss of revenue, already a problem post-Covid.

You mean the average fares will have to go up, not the basic fares. The
idea, as Roland mentioned, is to get so-called peak services more heavily
used, and also to get more people travelling because they'll be able to
afford to travel at convenient times. Against that, it risks losing some
leisure travellers who will not be able to find so many bargain fares.

In message <ulp7us$3f6fs$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:52 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 18/12/2023 09:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ku9csfF8qeaU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:00:31 on Sun, 17
>>Dec 2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>>> On 17/12/2023 13:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:03:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <WygfN.32629$ogWb.10745@fx14.ams1>, at 12:16:54 on Sat,
>>>>> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> More in The Times:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d637ef78-6b9c-406d-b91b-9cd88cc2bf7c
>>>>>> ?shareToken=b39866a47efc4bd621a0e0e2277cf734>
>>>>>
>>>>> "On Thursday the government said: We are confirming that we are not
>>>>> pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online
>>>>> rail ticket retailer."
>>>>>
>>>>> So another nail in the Fat Controller's coffin.
>>
>>>>  GBR is aiming at simplified ticketing that might make much of the
>>>>tech in current ticketing apps redundant. So, rather
>>>> than replicate what Trainline does, it might be easier (and much
>>>>cheaper) for GBR to let the commercial ticketing apps
>>>> handle the current complex situation, while it works on its
>>>>simplified tickets (which, as we know, won't be easy, as any
>>>> simplification will create both winners and losers, and the latter
>>>>complain more loudly than the former rejoice).

>>>>  If it does manage to produce a workable new ticketing system, then
>>>>the ticketing app for them might be much simpler.
>>>
>>> Surely one thing that could be done immediately to simplify the
>>>options for passengers is to get rid of operator-specific tickets
>>>(except for the independent operations like Hull Trains and Lumo of
>>>course).  All the money now goes to government so there's really no
>>>incentive element in ticket prices between one operator and another.
>>>Or is there some problem that I haven't thought of?

>> Indeed there is. Ticket prices are "what the market will stand", and
>>people will pay *more* to get a posh InterCity style train, than an
>>all shacks local service. So you might as well grab the money from
>>the former, while retaining the patronage of the latter who simply
>>don't have the funds to "travel posh".
>
>I sometimes pay a premium NOT to travel on a posh InterCity style train.
>
>Last time I went to Birmingham I could have paid less than to travel
>via Bristol Parkway railway station and a voyager but I chose the more
>expensive fare involving a BR Class 170 for the greater comfort.

Extreme corner-case-ism. Opinions will vary, especially amongst
infrequent travellers, whether they'd expect a Voyager, or 170, to be
more comfortable.

When I was using the MML quite often in the noughties, I always had to
choose whether to catch an HST (fast, quiet, transparent to GSM, plenty
of luggage space, but no at-seat power) compared to a Meridian
(semi-fast, noisy, opaque to GSM, pitiful luggage space, but at-seat
power).

A 2hr trip with a laptop having a 1.5hr battery life.

I've recently bought a new laptop with an 8hr battery life, plus a spare
hot-swapable battery [there's a built-in minibattery to power it during
the swapover process] so decisions might be different. Except they've
retired the HSTs.
--
Roland Perry