The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b

On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b

That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same. It's a real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps. I can't believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services too.

I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or two. But modern trains designers seem to be happy to waste a lot of space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and that would leave space for another pair of doors.

--
Clive Page

On 24/12/2023 10:33, Clive Page wrote:
> On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>
> That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same.  It's a
> real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a
> Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and
> everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps.  I can't
> believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services
> too.
>
> I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or
> two.  But modern trains designers seem to be happy to  waste a lot of
> space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably
> hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have
> most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and
> that would leave space for another pair of doors.
>

And if HS2 trains are to continue onto conventional lines such as WCML,
it seems incredibly stupid policy - in addition to one door per carriage
- to have no standing, implying compulsory resevations, when WCML is
effectively operating almost** the only town to town stopping services
between Crewe to Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow / Edinburgh. (Assuming
that the intention would be eventually to have HS2 trains replace most
Pendolino-operated services.)

** I discount the Trans Pennine services North of Preston, which already
get well-loaded, and could not cope will lots of additional passengers
if Pendolino services disappeared.

On 24/12/2023 12:51, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 10:33, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>>
>> That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same.  It's a
>> real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a
>> Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and
>> everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps.  I can't
>> believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic
>> services too.
>>
>> I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats
>> or two.  But modern trains designers seem to be happy to  waste a lot
>> of space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels
>> presumably hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design
>> would have most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the
>> roof, and that would leave space for another pair of doors.
>
> And if HS2 trains are to continue onto conventional lines such as WCML,
> it seems incredibly stupid policy - in addition to one door per carriage
> - to have no standing, implying compulsory resevations, when WCML is
> effectively operating almost** the only town to town stopping services
> between Crewe to Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow / Edinburgh. (Assuming
> that the intention would be eventually to have HS2 trains replace most
> Pendolino-operated services.)
>
> ** I discount the Trans Pennine services North of Preston, which already
> get well-loaded, and could not cope will lots of additional passengers
> if Pendolino services disappeared.

Crewe, Preston and Carlisle don't matter: they're up north, and must be
grateful that the London administration allows them any trains at all.
Glasgow and Edinburgh are a different matter; it's not acceptable for
their only service to much of England to be reservations only or have a
premium fare.

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 10:33, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>>
>> That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same.  It's a
>> real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a
>> Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and
>> everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps.  I can't
>> believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services
>> too.
>>
>> I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or
>> two.  But modern trains designers seem to be happy to  waste a lot of
>> space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably
>> hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have
>> most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and
>> that would leave space for another pair of doors.
>>
>
> And if HS2 trains are to continue onto conventional lines such as WCML,
> it seems incredibly stupid policy - in addition to one door per carriage
> - to have no standing, implying compulsory resevations, when WCML is
> effectively operating almost** the only town to town stopping services
> between Crewe to Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow / Edinburgh. (Assuming
> that the intention would be eventually to have HS2 trains replace most
> Pendolino-operated services.)
>
> ** I discount the Trans Pennine services North of Preston, which already
> get well-loaded, and could not cope will lots of additional passengers
> if Pendolino services disappeared.

Yes, these classic-compatible trains were always intended, by definition,
to run on to the classic network and serve existing stations, almost
certainly using platforms also used by other services. It's crazy that they
weren't appropriately specified for such duties. It's truly yet another
blunder by HS2 Ltd (prop DfT).

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:33:15 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
wrote:

>On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>
>That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same. It's a real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps. I can't believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services too.
>
>I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or two. But modern trains designers seem to be happy to waste a lot of space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and that would leave space for another pair of doors.

Class 745s have one door per car and on the Stansted service they also
have passengers with a lot of luggage. I asked an NR chap whether
extended dwell times were a problem. He said no, as once they do start
moving they're bloody quick!

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:33:15 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
> wrote:
>
>> On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>>
>> That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same. It's a
>> real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a
>> Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and
>> everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps. I can't
>> believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services too.
>>
>> I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or
>> two. But modern trains designers seem to be happy to waste a lot of
>> space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably
>> hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have
>> most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and
>> that would leave space for another pair of doors.
>
> Class 745s have one door per car and on the Stansted service they also
> have passengers with a lot of luggage. I asked an NR chap whether
> extended dwell times were a problem. He said no, as once they do start
> moving they're bloody quick!
>

They have much shorter carriages.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:33:15 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>>>
>>> That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same. It's a
>>> real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a
>>> Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and
>>> everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps. I can't
>>> believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services too.
>>>
>>> I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or
>>> two. But modern trains designers seem to be happy to waste a lot of
>>> space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably
>>> hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have
>>> most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and
>>> that would leave space for another pair of doors.
>>
>> Class 745s have one door per car and on the Stansted service they also
>> have passengers with a lot of luggage. I asked an NR chap whether
>> extended dwell times were a problem. He said no, as once they do start
>> moving they're bloody quick!
>>
>
> They have much shorter carriages.

So do the original Eurostars.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:33:15 +0000, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/12/2023 21:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> The latest HS2 blunder adding tens of millions to bill
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e3b68584-f674-4f83-b94e-5d94f2865478?shareToken=2cd24eed62a015be74b1854ac899925b
>>>>
>>>> That does seem an extraordinary design decision all the same. It's a
>>>> real pain having to queue up for a long time to enter or leave a
>>>> Eurostar train as there is only one set of doors per carriage, and
>>>> everyone has luggage so takes ages to get up/down the steps. I can't
>>>> believe that they want to replicate that situation on domestic services too.
>>>>
>>>> I can see that having another set of doors might lose a row of seats or
>>>> two. But modern trains designers seem to be happy to waste a lot of
>>>> space at each end of every carriage with plain grey panels presumably
>>>> hiding equipment of some sort - a more intelligent design would have
>>>> most of that stuff stowed away under the floor or above the roof, and
>>>> that would leave space for another pair of doors.
>>>
>>> Class 745s have one door per car and on the Stansted service they also
>>> have passengers with a lot of luggage. I asked an NR chap whether
>>> extended dwell times were a problem. He said no, as once they do start
>>> moving they're bloody quick!
>>>
>>
>> They have much shorter carriages.
>
> So do the original Eurostars.

Yes, and that arrangement worked reasonably well with the e300s. But,
surprisingly, the e320s, with 25m long carriages, also only have one door
per carriage. It's not a problem at termini, but can be at intermediate
stops like Lille, as I experienced a week ago.

Tomorrow, I'll be boarding an e300 at Lille, and will see how smoothly it
goes. It's been a few years since I last did that.