New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5

Extract:

FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).

It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”

FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
decades.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>
> Extract:
>
> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>
> It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
> working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
> ­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
> FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
> ­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”
>
> FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
> King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
> Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
> decades.
>

I was about to post the same. I thought the ECML was capacity constrained
at the southern end.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>>
>> Extract:
>>
>> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
>> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
>> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
>> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>>
>> It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
>> working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
>> ­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
>> FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
>> ­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”
>>
>> FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
>> King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
>> Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
>> decades.
>>
>
> I was about to post the same. I thought the ECML was capacity constrained
> at the southern end.

I suppose a mere two return services per day can be accommodated,
particularly if they're off-peak. Also, presumably only two trains would be
needed, and perhaps the plan would be for them to couple up to Hull or Lumo
trains, thus not needing new paths on the southern ECML.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>>>
>>> Extract:
>>>
>>> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
>>> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
>>> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
>>> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>>>
>>> It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
>>> working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
>>> ­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
>>> FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
>>> ­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”
>>>
>>> FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
>>> King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
>>> Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
>>> decades.
>>>
>>
>> I was about to post the same. I thought the ECML was capacity constrained
>> at the southern end.
>
> I suppose a mere two return services per day can be accommodated,
> particularly if they're off-peak. Also, presumably only two trains would be
> needed, and perhaps the plan would be for them to couple up to Hull or Lumo
> trains, thus not needing new paths on the southern ECML.

This is the FirstGroup press release. It confirms that this service would
be an offshoot of its Hull Trains subsidiary (which already serves Retford,
where the trains could couple if necessary, to avoid needing an extra ECML
path to KGX):

https://railuk.com/company-news/firstgroup-applies-to-run-new-london-to-sheffield-rail-service/

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 09:30:54 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>>
>> Extract:
>>
>> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
>> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
>> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
>> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>>
>> It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
>> working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
>> ­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
>> FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
>> ­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”
>>
>> FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
>> King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
>> Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
>> decades.
>>
>
>I was about to post the same. I thought the ECML was capacity constrained
>at the southern end.

Thinking about this a bit more, and assuming that this service is aimed mainly at visitors from Sheffield, Worksop and
Woodhouse to London, rather than vice versa, I think it would only need one 5-car bimode unit, and no extra ECML paths.

The train could start from Sheffield at around 7am, and couple up to the HT train from Beverley at Retford at 0740. The
pair would then proceed to Grantham and the Cross, arriving at 0917. They would leave KGX at 0947, arriving at Retford
at 1115, where they would split, with the Sheffield train arriving there by around 1150.

There could then be a second return trip, leaving Sheffield at around 1530, coupling at Retford at 1617, and arriving in
KGX at 1745. It could then leave KGX at 1848, split at Retford at 2012, arriving at Sheffield around 2050.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 09:30:54 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>>>
>>> Extract:
>>>
>>> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
>>> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
>>> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
>>> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>>>
>>> It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
>>> working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
>>> ­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
>>> FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
>>> ­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”
>>>
>>> FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
>>> King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
>>> Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
>>> decades.
>>>
>>
>> I was about to post the same. I thought the ECML was capacity constrained
>> at the southern end.
>
> Thinking about this a bit more, and assuming that this service is aimed
> mainly at visitors from Sheffield, Worksop and
> Woodhouse to London, rather than vice versa, I think it would only need
> one 5-car bimode unit, and no extra ECML paths.
>
> The train could start from Sheffield at around 7am, and couple up to the
> HT train from Beverley at Retford at 0740. The
> pair would then proceed to Grantham and the Cross, arriving at 0917. They
> would leave KGX at 0947, arriving at Retford
> at 1115, where they would split, with the Sheffield train arriving there by around 1150.
>
> There could then be a second return trip, leaving Sheffield at around
> 1530, coupling at Retford at 1617, and arriving in
> KGX at 1745. It could then leave KGX at 1848, split at Retford at 2012,
> arriving at Sheffield around 2050.
>

That does make both services dependent on each other though. Presumably if
one gets delayed post the split both get delayed.

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 11:38:15 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 09:30:54 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>>>>
>>>> Extract:
>>>>
>>>> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
>>>> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
>>>> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
>>>> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>>>>
>>>> It says its service is needed because the current arrangements are not
>>>> working. “Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are
>>>> ­currently made by car with a further 9 per cent of trips made by coach,”
>>>> FirstGroup said. “A competitively priced new rail offering will help
>>>> ­stimulate a shift from road to rail.”
>>>>
>>>> FirstGroup says its service would be the first regular service between
>>>> King’s Cross and Sheffield since 1968 and would also give the
>>>> Nottinghamshire town of Worksop its first regular direct London trains in
>>>> decades.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I was about to post the same. I thought the ECML was capacity constrained
>>> at the southern end.
>>
>> Thinking about this a bit more, and assuming that this service is aimed
>> mainly at visitors from Sheffield, Worksop and
>> Woodhouse to London, rather than vice versa, I think it would only need
>> one 5-car bimode unit, and no extra ECML paths.
>>
>> The train could start from Sheffield at around 7am, and couple up to the
>> HT train from Beverley at Retford at 0740. The
>> pair would then proceed to Grantham and the Cross, arriving at 0917. They
>> would leave KGX at 0947, arriving at Retford
>> at 1115, where they would split, with the Sheffield train arriving there by around 1150.
>>
>> There could then be a second return trip, leaving Sheffield at around
>> 1530, coupling at Retford at 1617, and arriving in
>> KGX at 1745. It could then leave KGX at 1848, split at Retford at 2012,
>> arriving at Sheffield around 2050.
>>
>
>That does make both services dependent on each other though. Presumably if
>one gets delayed post the split both get delayed.

Yes. These sort of unit splits and joins are common in other European countries, and in some UK TOCs, such as Southern.

On 05/01/2024 08:58, Recliner wrote:
> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5
>
> Extract:
>
> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an initial
> two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and Sheffield calling at
> Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that will be faster than the
> two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).

That's got to be a good thing. EMR/EMT have alwys taken the piss with
fares, as they have no competition, I used to live near to Leicester,
but always went to Rugby to catch a London train, as the fares were
usually half price or less compared to EMT. Even with parking and 25
minutes extra travel, the trip was better. Actually, the 25 mins to
Rugby was around the same as to Leicester,(Leicester traffic is similar
to central London), and parking at Rugby was £3 compared to £8+.

I cannot see them joining trains anywhere on route, that is a recipe for
poor timings and failures, as well as what to do with train crews. The
ECML is very busy, even in the slow/stopping lines, so one unit waiting
for another delayed unit will have an impact all around, hence unlikely
to be a joining portion anywhere.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

In message <unerb7$15rie$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:42:47 on Sun, 7 Jan
2024, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
>> New London to Sheffield train service planned for 2025
>>
>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a3020563-fc20-45f8-a98e-bac2ba39c6e6
>>?shareToken=4e2b97024a6006f6a5a83f419ca31aa5

>> Extract:

>> FirstGroup’s proposals to the Office of Rail and Road suggest an
>>initial two return journeys a day between King’s Cross and
>>Sheffield calling at Retford, Worksop and Woodhouse, and one that
>>will be faster than the two-hour East Midland Trains service (sic).
>
>That's got to be a good thing. EMR/EMT have alwys taken the piss with
>fares, as they have no competition, I used to live near to Leicester,
>but always went to Rugby to catch a London train, as the fares were
>usually half price or less compared to EMT.

When I lived in Nottingham I usually travelled to London "via Grantham",
because it was cheaper and rarely any slower. Some people I know used to
drive to Grantham, but I took the local train.

As for fares on MML/EMT, the trick was to split tickets at somewhere
like Kettering. The ticket office staff at Nottingham station varied
between selling the tickets really grumpily, to on one occasion point
blank refusing.

This was solved by the arrival of online sales, and picking up from a
TVM. Although to begin with there was a considerable delay in the
tickets being available for collection (probably deliberately).
--
Roland Perry