<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>

The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
strike-breaking agenda.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:46:49 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>
>The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>strike-breaking agenda.

Lets hope they succeed. The RMT and Aslef both need a good kicking.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>
> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
> strike-breaking agenda.

The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced into work
deciding they are ill all of a sudden?

On 18/01/2024 16:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>
> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
> strike-breaking agenda.

It was easy enough for the majority of passengers to work around one
strike day. Now we have to work around five consecutive days of
disruption which is much harder. No doubt this will also make
industrial relations worse which means fewer drivers will volunteer for
rest day or weekend working so even more cancellations.

This is the inevitable reaction to HMG's legitimatisation. I'm sure
civil servants would have given HMG similar advice.

I'm now convinced that HMG are deliberately provoking the rail unions
for political purposes.

In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>
>The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>strike-breaking agenda.

Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.

In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
having often significantly lower living costs.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>
>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>> strike-breaking agenda.
>
> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>
> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
> having often significantly lower living costs.

Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k. Perhaps in the very first year they
might, but they are basically apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor (
surgeon) and I know exactly what they earn.

In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>
>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>> strike-breaking agenda.
>
>The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced into work
>deciding they are ill all of a sudden?

It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
sick simultaneously.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>
>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>
>> The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced into work
>> deciding they are ill all of a sudden?
>
> It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
> reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
> sick simultaneously.

There’s a lot of covid around at the moment….

In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>
>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>
>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>
>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>
>Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.

It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.

>Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>what they earn.

Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!

What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.

cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
only-on-overtime.

[1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
and won't recover if you eventually don't.
--
Roland Perry

In message <uobs18$2n5m7$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:52:24 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>
>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>
>>> The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced into work
>>> deciding they are ill all of a sudden?
>>
>> It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
>> reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
>> sick simultaneously.
>
>There’s a lot of covid around at the moment….

Luckily, there are also rapid tests for that.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>
>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>
>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>
>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>
>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>
> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>
>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>> what they earn.
>
> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>
> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>
> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
> only-on-overtime.
>
> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
> and won't recover if you eventually don't.

The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
other allowances.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uobs18$2n5m7$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:52:24 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>
>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>
>>>> The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced into work
>>>> deciding they are ill all of a sudden?
>>>
>>> It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
>>> reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
>>> sick simultaneously.
>>
>> There’s a lot of covid around at the moment….
>
> Luckily, there are also rapid tests for that.

You can self certify for a week. There’s also a lot of other non covid bugs
around. It would be a very brave manager ordering someone in a safety
critical role, who states they aren’t fit, back to work. Why would a
manager want to do the government’s dirty work anyway?

In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>
>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>
>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>
>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>
>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>
>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>
>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>> what they earn.
>>
>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>
>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>
>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>> only-on-overtime.
>>
>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>
>The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>other allowances.

While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).
--
Roland Perry

In message <uobu8d$2ni74$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:21 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uobs18$2n5m7$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:52:24 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>
>>>>> The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced
>>>>>into work
>>>>> deciding they are ill all of a sudden?
>>>>
>>>> It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
>>>> reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
>>>> sick simultaneously.
>>>
>>> There’s a lot of covid around at the moment….
>>
>> Luckily, there are also rapid tests for that.
>
>You can self certify for a week.

The impression I get is that because you probably need to be off for
more than a week, but bothering the GP for a sick-note isn't especially
helpful, thus most employers on sight of the positive test will give you
special sick leave for up to two weeks. But you need to file that
initial test on day 1.

>There’s also a lot of other non covid bugs
>around. It would be a very brave manager ordering someone in a safety
>critical role, who states they aren’t fit, back to work.

Please try to keep up! You order in the reserves.

>Why would a manager want to do the government’s dirty work anyway?

A TOC manager is employed by the government (either indirectly, or in
the case of somewhere like LNER, directly via the OLR). If they don't
want the role, maybe they should consider a change of career.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uobu8d$2ni74$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:21 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uobs18$2n5m7$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:52:24 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced
>>>>>> into work
>>>>>> deciding they are ill all of a sudden?
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
>>>>> reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
>>>>> sick simultaneously.
>>>>
>>>> There’s a lot of covid around at the moment….
>>>
>>> Luckily, there are also rapid tests for that.
>>
>> You can self certify for a week.
>
> The impression I get is that because you probably need to be off for
> more than a week, but bothering the GP for a sick-note isn't especially
> helpful, thus most employers on sight of the positive test will give you
> special sick leave for up to two weeks. But you need to file that
> initial test on day 1.
>
>> There’s also a lot of other non covid bugs
>> around. It would be a very brave manager ordering someone in a safety
>> critical role, who states they aren’t fit, back to work.
>
> Please try to keep up! You order in the reserves

I’m Spartacus

>
>> Why would a manager want to do the government’s dirty work anyway?
>
> A TOC manager is employed by the government (either indirectly, or in
> the case of somewhere like LNER, directly via the OLR). If they don't
> want the role, maybe they should consider a change of career.

Good job you aren’t in charge of industrial relations negotiations.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>>
>>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>>
>>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>>
>>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>>> what they earn.
>>>
>>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>>
>>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>>
>>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>>> only-on-overtime.
>>>
>>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>>
>> The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>> other allowances.
>
> While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
> lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
> drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).

Foundation year 1 doctors ('apprentices') earn an average of £41.3k. The
earnings increase rapidly as their experience grows, rising to an average
of £71.3k for specialty registrars. Specialty doctors earn an average of
£96k. Consultants earn much more, an average of £143k (more if they also do
private work), and GP partners also earn more, an average of £164k.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/exploring-the-earnings-of-nhs-doctors-in-england

The average train driver salary in the UK is £48.5k per year. Train drivers
can expect to begin with an average starting salary of £30k, with the
highest salaries often exceeding £65k (£70k in LNER).

Train driver salaries can also differ between commercial or freight roles.
The average freight train driver salary in the UK is £44.4k.

The average train driver salary in London is £59k, with experienced
professionals in the region having salaries that often exceed £69k, while
train driver salaries in Scotland start at £38k for newly qualified
drivers, rising to £48.4k after the probation period has ended.

https://www.reed.com/articles/train-driver-salary-benefits

LNER only train operator to use minimum service law

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4f43785d-07f7-4005-a295-9435a3e85cbc?shareToken=57b84ca0bcb0a61e1ba624c12a0fe19c

In message <uoc0k4$2nvu5$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:10:44 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uobu8d$2ni74$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:21 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uobs18$2n5m7$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:52:24 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uobn06$2m9ca$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:30 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The legislation was always nuts. What’s to stop all those forced
>>>>>>> into work
>>>>>>> deciding they are ill all of a sudden?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be the TOC's responsibility to have a list of
>>>>>> reserve-candidates, and it would be preposterous for all of them to be
>>>>>> sick simultaneously.
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s a lot of covid around at the moment….
>>>>
>>>> Luckily, there are also rapid tests for that.
>>>
>>> You can self certify for a week.
>>
>> The impression I get is that because you probably need to be off for
>> more than a week, but bothering the GP for a sick-note isn't especially
>> helpful, thus most employers on sight of the positive test will give you
>> special sick leave for up to two weeks. But you need to file that
>> initial test on day 1.
>>
>>> There’s also a lot of other non covid bugs
>>> around. It would be a very brave manager ordering someone in a safety
>>> critical role, who states they aren’t fit, back to work.
>>
>> Please try to keep up! You order in the reserves
>
>I’m Spartacus
>
>>> Why would a manager want to do the government’s dirty work anyway?
>>
>> A TOC manager is employed by the government (either indirectly, or in
>> the case of somewhere like LNER, directly via the OLR). If they don't
>> want the role, maybe they should consider a change of career.
>
>Good job you aren’t in charge of industrial relations negotiations.

Or you, a role in assuring operations at a public service like a train
company.

Anyway, the current industrial relations people have failed utterly in
their jobs for things to have got to this point. I'm acting here as a
troubleshooter.
--
Roland Perry

In message <NxhqN.14300$Um93.635@fx13.ams1>, at 22:23:41 on Thu, 18 Jan
2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>>>
>>>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>>>> what they earn.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>>>
>>>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>>>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>>>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>>>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>>>
>>>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>>>> only-on-overtime.
>>>>
>>>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>>>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>>>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>>>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>>>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>>>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>>>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>>>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>>>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>>>
>>> The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>>> other allowances.
>>
>> While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
>> lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
>> drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).
>
>Foundation year 1 doctors ('apprentices') earn an average of £41.3k.

The strikers claim they are barely above minimum wage, and the published
pay scale is £32,398, so "on average" they must be working a *lot* of
overtime to get that extra £9k.

>The earnings increase rapidly as their experience grows, rising to an
>average of £71.3k for specialty registrars. Specialty doctors earn an
>average of £96k. Consultants earn much more, an average of £143k
>(more if they also do private work), and GP partners also earn more, an
>average of £164k.
>
>https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/exploring-the-earnings-of-nhs-
>doctors-in-england
>
>The average train driver salary in the UK is £48.5k per year. Train drivers
>can expect to begin with an average starting salary of £30k, with the
>highest salaries often exceeding £65k (£70k in LNER).
>
>Train driver salaries can also differ between commercial or freight roles.
>The average freight train driver salary in the UK is £44.4k.
>
>The average train driver salary in London is £59k, with experienced
>professionals in the region having salaries that often exceed £69k, while
>train driver salaries in Scotland start at £38k for newly qualified
>drivers, rising to £48.4k after the probation period has ended.
>
>https://www.reed.com/articles/train-driver-salary-benefits

--
Roland Perry

In message <ReZ0vbynihqlFAdp@perry.uk>, at 06:37:27 on Fri, 19 Jan 2024,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>In message <NxhqN.14300$Um93.635@fx13.ams1>, at 22:23:41 on Thu, 18 Jan
>2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>>>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>>>>> what they earn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>>>>
>>>>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>>>>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>>>>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>>>>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>>>>
>>>>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>>>>> only-on-overtime.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>>>>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>>>>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>>>>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>>>>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>>>>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>>>>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>>>>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>>>>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>>>>
>>>> The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>>>> other allowances.
>>>
>>> While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
>>> lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
>>> drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).
>>
>>Foundation year 1 doctors ('apprentices') earn an average of £41.3k.
>
>The strikers claim they are barely above minimum wage,

Or is it living wage? Anyway, the latter (outside London) translates to
almost exactly £25k/yr for a 40hr week.

>and the published pay scale is £32,398,

Living wage plus 13%

>so "on average" they must be working a *lot* of overtime to get that
>extra £9k.
>
>>The earnings increase rapidly as their experience grows, rising to an
>>average of £71.3k for specialty registrars. Specialty doctors earn an
>>average of £96k. Consultants earn much more, an average of £143k
>>(more if they also do private work), and GP partners also earn more,
>>an average of £164k.
>>
>>https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/exploring-the-earnings-of-nhs-
>>doctors-in-england
>>
>>The average train driver salary in the UK is £48.5k per year. Train drivers
>>can expect to begin with an average starting salary of £30k, with the
>>highest salaries often exceeding £65k (£70k in LNER).
>>
>>Train driver salaries can also differ between commercial or freight roles.
>>The average freight train driver salary in the UK is £44.4k.
>>
>>The average train driver salary in London is £59k, with experienced
>>professionals in the region having salaries that often exceed £69k, while
>>train driver salaries in Scotland start at £38k for newly qualified
>>drivers, rising to £48.4k after the probation period has ended.
>>
>>https://www.reed.com/articles/train-driver-salary-benefits
>

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <NxhqN.14300$Um93.635@fx13.ams1>, at 22:23:41 on Thu, 18 Jan
> 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>>>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>>>>> what they earn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>>>>
>>>>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>>>>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>>>>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>>>>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>>>>
>>>>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>>>>> only-on-overtime.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>>>>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>>>>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>>>>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>>>>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>>>>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>>>>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>>>>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>>>>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>>>>
>>>> The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>>>> other allowances.
>>>
>>> While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
>>> lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
>>> drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).
>>
>> Foundation year 1 doctors ('apprentices') earn an average of £41.3k.
>
> The strikers claim they are barely above minimum wage, and the published
> pay scale is £32,398, so "on average" they must be working a *lot* of
> overtime to get that extra £9k.
>
All F1 (and F2) doctors work in hospitals (with the occasional few months
on attachment to a GP). The hospital work inevitably involves working over
bank holidays, night shifts etc. Any hospital job that has an element of
working outside a “social” 40 hour week attracts a banding multiplier.
Hospital pay scales are incredibly complicated, to the extent that the
doctors don’t really understand them themselves. Just to be clear, overtime
isn’t normally metered by the hour. So the figures given for the hourly
rate of an F1 are to be taken with a pinch of salt. Where there is cause
for complaint is the funding of year 5 medical students. By year 5 the
standard student maintenance loans have run out (covers years 1 to 4 only).
If you have *very* poor parents you can get a bursary of £3500. (In
England) This is supposed to cover your food, rent etc for a full year.
Year 5 medical students work full days so there’s little scope for
additional earnings. So quite a number of F1 doctors are up to their neck
in debt, unless they have parents who can bail them out.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <NxhqN.14300$Um93.635@fx13.ams1>, at 22:23:41 on Thu, 18 Jan
>> 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>>>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>>>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>>>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>>>>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>>>>>> what they earn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>>>>>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>>>>>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>>>>>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>>>>>> only-on-overtime.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>>>>>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>>>>>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>>>>>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>>>>>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>>>>>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>>>>>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>>>>>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>>>>>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>>>>> other allowances.
>>>>
>>>> While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
>>>> lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
>>>> drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).
>>>
>>> Foundation year 1 doctors ('apprentices') earn an average of £41.3k.
>>
>> The strikers claim they are barely above minimum wage, and the published
>> pay scale is £32,398, so "on average" they must be working a *lot* of
>> overtime to get that extra £9k.
>>
> All F1 (and F2) doctors work in hospitals (with the occasional few months
> on attachment to a GP). The hospital work inevitably involves working over
> bank holidays, night shifts etc. Any hospital job that has an element of
> working outside a “social” 40 hour week attracts a banding multiplier.
> Hospital pay scales are incredibly complicated, to the extent that the
> doctors don’t really understand them themselves. Just to be clear, overtime
> isn’t normally metered by the hour. So the figures given for the hourly
> rate of an F1 are to be taken with a pinch of salt. Where there is cause
> for complaint is the funding of year 5 medical students. By year 5 the
> standard student maintenance loans have run out (covers years 1 to 4 only).
> If you have *very* poor parents you can get a bursary of £3500. (In
> England) This is supposed to cover your food, rent etc for a full year.
> Year 5 medical students work full days so there’s little scope for
> additional earnings. So quite a number of F1 doctors are up to their neck
> in debt, unless they have parents who can bail them out.

The other, valid, point junior doctors make is that their pay rises have
lagged in recent years, and that they're not well paid considering their
long years of education and training, and long hours. Train drivers need
less education, and have a far shorter training period, but are relatively
well paid compared to other comparable occupations.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <NxhqN.14300$Um93.635@fx13.ams1>, at 22:23:41 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>> 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <uobu19$2ngru$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:33 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uobpc6$2mnek$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:07:02 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <uobklp$2lok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:49 on Thu, 18 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>>>>>>>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given that AIUI train drivers (£48k) are on average paid more than
>>>>>>>>> hospital doctors (£41k), sympathy is fast running out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In other news today, striking public workers in NI are demanding their
>>>>>>>>> pay is increased to match that in other parts of the UK, despite them
>>>>>>>>> having often significantly lower living costs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hospital doctors don’t earn £41k.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a published average. For the first few years they earn much less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps in the very first year they might, but they are basically
>>>>>>>> apprentices. My son is a hospital doctor ( surgeon) and I know exactly
>>>>>>>> what they earn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously there are some who earn more than average!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's not entirely clear is whether both averages are only basic pay,
>>>>>>> or also include overtime. My daughter, who is qualified as a senior
>>>>>>> A&E nurse[1], can make quite a bit of extra money by volunteering to
>>>>>>> work weekend (and especially weekend night) extra shifts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cf the still-widespread issue of train-driving on Sunday being
>>>>>>> only-on-overtime.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] She was explaining to me last weekend how if a patient superficially
>>>>>>> needs emergency out-of-hours surgery, they have to do a careful risk
>>>>>>> assessment about whether they can wait until when the day-shift
>>>>>>> arrives first thing the following morning, versus have a tired on-
>>>>>>> call surgeon do it in the middle of the night. Before graduating at
>>>>>>> Cambridge, she used to be a TA in the trauma/transplant theatres,
>>>>>>> where they have similar decisions to make - a patient impaled on a
>>>>>>> fence-post, will certainly die if you start off by pulling it out,
>>>>>>> and won't recover if you eventually don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The basic hospital doctor rate is increased by around 50% by shift and
>>>>>> other allowances.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I agree this rather debunks some of the placards at their picket
>>>>> lines, it gets no closer to understanding if the same is true of train
>>>>> drivers (or even if the 48/41k averages are basic pay or take home).
>>>>
>>>> Foundation year 1 doctors ('apprentices') earn an average of £41.3k.
>>>
>>> The strikers claim they are barely above minimum wage, and the published
>>> pay scale is £32,398, so "on average" they must be working a *lot* of
>>> overtime to get that extra £9k.
>>>
>> All F1 (and F2) doctors work in hospitals (with the occasional few months
>> on attachment to a GP). The hospital work inevitably involves working over
>> bank holidays, night shifts etc. Any hospital job that has an element of
>> working outside a “social” 40 hour week attracts a banding multiplier.
>> Hospital pay scales are incredibly complicated, to the extent that the
>> doctors don’t really understand them themselves. Just to be clear, overtime
>> isn’t normally metered by the hour. So the figures given for the hourly
>> rate of an F1 are to be taken with a pinch of salt. Where there is cause
>> for complaint is the funding of year 5 medical students. By year 5 the
>> standard student maintenance loans have run out (covers years 1 to 4 only).
>> If you have *very* poor parents you can get a bursary of £3500. (In
>> England) This is supposed to cover your food, rent etc for a full year.
>> Year 5 medical students work full days so there’s little scope for
>> additional earnings. So quite a number of F1 doctors are up to their neck
>> in debt, unless they have parents who can bail them out.
>
> The other, valid, point junior doctors make is that their pay rises have
> lagged in recent years, and that they're not well paid considering their
> long years of education and training, and long hours. Train drivers need
> less education, and have a far shorter training period, but are relatively
> well paid compared to other comparable occupations.
>
>

Excluding the payment of tuition fees, which is covered by the student loan
for years 1 to 4, I reckon getting my son through medical school to
qualification has cost me around £50k. If a doctor comes from a not very
well off family there’s going to be a lot of debt to pay off in the early
years of employment. We were lucky to have had grand parent help.

On 18/01/2024 17:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:46:49 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>
>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>> strike-breaking agenda.
>
> Lets hope they succeed. The RMT and Aslef both need a good kicking.
>

So far it's backfired and the travelling public is being put to even
more inconvenience than before HMG's legislation.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 17:10, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:46:49 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68017576>
>>>
>>> The government (sic) trying to make LNER the guinea pig for its
>>> strike-breaking agenda.
>>
>> Lets hope they succeed. The RMT and Aslef both need a good kicking.
>>
>
>
> So far it's backfired and the travelling public is being put to even
> more inconvenience than before HMG's legislation.
>

As ever, and especially with this government, simplistic solutions to
complex problems always end up making things worse.