Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19

On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>
>

Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>
>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>
>Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!

I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".

But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
£700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
national median wage of £35k.

It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].

It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
£7k/month.

Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>
>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>
>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>
> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>
> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
> national median wage of £35k.
>
> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>
> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
> £7k/month.
>
> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>

The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.

As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
expedient to sort out driver training.

It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
driverless trains are the immediate solution.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>
>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>
>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>
>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>> national median wage of £35k.
>>
>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>
>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>> £7k/month.
>>
>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>
>
> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>
> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
> expedient to sort out driver training.
>
> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>

Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
smoothly.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>
>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>
>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>
>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>
>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>
>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>> £7k/month.
>>>
>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>
>>
>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>
>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>
>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>
>
> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
> smoothly.
>
>

It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?

On 24/03/2024 12:04, Tweed wrote:
> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.

A murdoch journalist exaggerating figures in an anti-union piece in an
election year? Surely not.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>
>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>
>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>
>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>
>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>
>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>> £7k/month.
>>>
>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>
>>
>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>
>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>
>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>
>
> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
> smoothly.
>

As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 24/03/2024 12:36, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>
>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>
>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>
>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>
>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>
>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>
>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>> smoothly.
>>
>>
>
> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?

Channel tunnel shuttles have to have onboard crew for safety reasons so
they might as well drive the trains to stop them getting bored.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2024 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>
>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>
>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>> smoothly.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
>> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
>> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
>> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?
>
> Channel tunnel shuttles have to have onboard crew for safety reasons so
> they might as well drive the trains to stop them getting bored.

Agreed, however this argument can be extended to all mainline trains.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>
>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>
>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>
>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>
>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>
>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>
>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>> smoothly.
>>
>
> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2024 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>
>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>
>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>> smoothly.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
>> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
>> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
>> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?
>
> Channel tunnel shuttles have to have onboard crew for safety reasons so
> they might as well drive the trains to stop them getting bored.

I bet they have more than just the driver onboard.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>
>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>
>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>
>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>
>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>
>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>
>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>> smoothly.
>>
>>
>
> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?
>

Built 20 years ago, using the off-the-shelf VAL system. It's capable of
very high frequencies, more than any LU line.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>
>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>
>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>> smoothly.
>>>
>>
>> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
>> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.
>
> Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
> services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.
>
>

Does the Turin system have platform edge doors? Without those I can’t see
how you can safely operate without human supervision (and it’s a miracle
that it is as safe as it is). Things like the Heathrow T5 shuttle to the
satellite terminals run without any obvious staff (apart from a terminus
security sweep) but that has PEDs.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2024 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>> smoothly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
>>> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
>>> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
>>> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?
>>
>> Channel tunnel shuttles have to have onboard crew for safety reasons so
>> they might as well drive the trains to stop them getting bored.
>
> I bet they have more than just the driver onboard.
>
>

They have two staff to my knowledge. A driver and a guard in the rear loco.
That guard can drive the rear loco if the train needs to be divided or
reversed. As a car shuttle user I’ve never seen any on train staff. Perhaps
the lorry drivers’ coach has someone handing out coffee on lorry shuttles.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>
>
> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
> smoothly.

They are shrouded very well.

GH

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>> smoothly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
>>> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.
>>
>> Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
>> services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.
>>
>>
>
> Does the Turin system have platform edge doors?

Yes, it has PEDs at all stations. It also has double-track tunnels, so
train-to-train evacuations may be possible. The tunnels have continuous
walkways, and there's no surface sections.

> Without those I can’t see
> how you can safely operate without human supervision (and it’s a miracle
> that it is as safe as it is).

Yes, PEDs are a good idea with driverless trains. But the DLR has no PEDs
and no drivers. I don't think the unmanned Vancouver Sky Trains have PEDs,
either, and that's a mainly above-ground railway.

> Things like the Heathrow T5 shuttle to the
> satellite terminals run without any obvious staff (apart from a terminus
> security sweep) but that has PEDs.

Yes, like most airport shuttles. Of course, they're partly for flight
safety security segregation.

On 24/03/2024 15:09, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2024 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>> smoothly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
>>> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
>>> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
>>> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?
>>
>> Channel tunnel shuttles have to have onboard crew for safety reasons so
>> they might as well drive the trains to stop them getting bored.
>
> I bet they have more than just the driver onboard.
>

Minimum of two in case they have to split the train.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>>> smoothly.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
>>>> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
>>> services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Does the Turin system have platform edge doors?
>
> Yes, it has PEDs at all stations. It also has double-track tunnels, so
> train-to-train evacuations may be possible. The tunnels have continuous
> walkways, and there's no surface sections.
>
>> Without those I can’t see
>> how you can safely operate without human supervision (and it’s a miracle
>> that it is as safe as it is).
>
> Yes, PEDs are a good idea with driverless trains. But the DLR has no PEDs
> and no drivers. I don't think the unmanned Vancouver Sky Trains have PEDs,
> either, and that's a mainly above-ground railway.
>
>> Things like the Heathrow T5 shuttle to the
>> satellite terminals run without any obvious staff (apart from a terminus
>> security sweep) but that has PEDs.
>
> Yes, like most airport shuttles. Of course, they're partly for flight
> safety security segregation.
>
>

Doesn’t the DLR still have a supervising staff member on board?

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>>>> smoothly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
>>>>> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
>>>> services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Does the Turin system have platform edge doors?
>>
>> Yes, it has PEDs at all stations. It also has double-track tunnels, so
>> train-to-train evacuations may be possible. The tunnels have continuous
>> walkways, and there's no surface sections.
>>
>>> Without those I can’t see
>>> how you can safely operate without human supervision (and it’s a miracle
>>> that it is as safe as it is).
>>
>> Yes, PEDs are a good idea with driverless trains. But the DLR has no PEDs
>> and no drivers. I don't think the unmanned Vancouver Sky Trains have PEDs,
>> either, and that's a mainly above-ground railway.
>>
>>> Things like the Heathrow T5 shuttle to the
>>> satellite terminals run without any obvious staff (apart from a terminus
>>> security sweep) but that has PEDs.
>>
>> Yes, like most airport shuttles. Of course, they're partly for flight
>> safety security segregation.
>>
>>
>
> Doesn’t the DLR still have a supervising staff member on board?

Yes, but not driving. They are essentially guards, mainly there for
checking tickets and closing the doors, not safely entering platforms. It
confirms my point that UK metro systems have higher manning levels than
elsewhere.

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 13:37:05 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2024 12:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>> smoothly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It’s a lot easier to automate a captive low speed network than a mixed
>>> traffic high speed one. Even the channel tunnel shuttles aren’t automated,
>>> which you would imagine are quite high up on the easy to do list. Is the
>>> Turin metro a new build/new refurbishment?
>>
>> Channel tunnel shuttles have to have onboard crew for safety reasons so
>> they might as well drive the trains to stop them getting bored.
>
>Agreed, however this argument can be extended to all mainline trains.
>
No doubt if the the people shouting for driverless trains got their
way then they would also be the first to scream like mad if passengers
got stranded somewhere without any staff to help.

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 15:09:55 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>
>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>
>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>> smoothly.
>>>
>>
>> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
>> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.
>
>Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
>services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.
>
Still needed until there is an intelligence test to be passed by all
passengers before they are allowed past the station entrance.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 15:09:55 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2024 12:14, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <utolp2$7jr3$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:46:42 on Sun, 24 Mar
>>>>>> 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2
>>>>>>>> ?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as Hunt says, that's not a great deal in Surrey!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's going to go down in history along with things like "No
>>>>>> such thing as Society" and "Wrong kind of snow".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the proper context is that with average house prices apparently
>>>>>> £700k, someone with a family and other normal expenses is going to
>>>>>> struggle on less than £100k. So he's set thresholds for support, and net
>>>>>> gains from tax cuts, that taper to £100k - rather than for example the
>>>>>> national median wage of £35k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't of course mean everyone in Surrey is compelled to live in
>>>>>> a £700k house. A friend of mine lives a couple of miles from Godalming,
>>>>>> where those words were uttered to constituent, in a perfectly
>>>>>> adequate three bed semi in a road whose average price is £365[1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just that Surrey has more than its fair share of five bedroom
>>>>>> detached houses in half an acre. Some of them only a few hundred
>>>>>> yards from where my friend lives. Typical prices £2m, or rental of
>>>>>> £7k/month.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curiously the average price in the street where I live, on the edge of
>>>>>> Cambridge's ripple effect, but with views ten miles in three directions
>>>>>> across fields of turnips and onions, is £357k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The journalist has been a bit free and easy with the figures. If I’ve done
>>>>> my sums correctly they got to the £100k by multiplying the £600 rest day
>>>>> working fee by 52 and adding that to the base salary. It seems improbable
>>>>> that a driver will work 52 rest days per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand it, they can’t train enough new drivers because the
>>>>> existing ones are too busy driving trains. This looks like a temporary
>>>>> expedient to sort out driver training.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s amazing the number of comments in the Times article comments who think
>>>>> driverless trains are the immediate solution.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I keep hearing that suggestion from people who've not thought it
>>>> through. But yesterday I was on the Turin Metro which gives the impression
>>>> of being completely unmanned: no visible station staff, t even at the
>>>> barriers or on the platforms, and unmanned trains. All seems to run
>>>> smoothly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As often pointed out; Metros are a special case, a closed system with
>>> identically performing trains and no conflicting traffic.
>>
>> Yes, I'm well aware of that, but you see far more staff on all TfL
>> services, even the Drain, Victoria Line and DLR.
>>
> Still needed until there is an intelligence test to be passed by all
> passengers before they are allowed past the station entrance.

So you're saying Brits are less intelligent than Italians and Canadians,
and their visitors?

On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>
>
According to Hunt this “doesn’t go as far as you might think” so this is
obviously a modest pay deal.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 24/03/2024 04:05, Recliner wrote:
>> Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal
>>
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0d8cb81c-5906-4aa2-b945-1fb4a30d41c2?shareToken=eb8eb62144595230fe6979c8b16d2d19
>>
>>
> According to Hunt this “doesn’t go as far as you might think” so this is
> obviously a modest pay deal.
>

I wonder how many Avanti West Coast train drivers live in South West
Surrey?