In message <usq3l1$di3d$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:33:21 on Tue, 12 Mar
2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 12/03/2024 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <usp29f$62qu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:03:59 on Tue, 12 Mar
>>2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 12/03/2024 02:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <uskppp$32pri$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:14:33 on Sun, 10
>>>>Mar 2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 10/03/2024 15:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uskj5q$3135a$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:21:30 on Sun, 10
>>>>>>Mar  2024, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 10/03/2024 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Totally agree, just saying those sort of problems tend not to
>>>>>>>>>exist  at  Reading, bar the occasional short formed IET being 5
>>>>>>>>>cars  instead of  10. Only seen that once and that was during
>>>>>>>>>the chaos  the day of the  Queen's funeral when the wires came down around  Southall.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was interesting to watch as they were reallocating down
>>>>>>>>>trains  on  the fly as up trains arrived, unable to go further,
>>>>>>>>>passengers  being  directed to the Waterloo line.[1] They were
>>>>>>>>>checking drivers'  hours  and route knowledge on arrival and
>>>>>>>>>then sending back them  west on  appropriate services. I was
>>>>>>>>>heading for Plymouth and made  it only 45  minutes late on a
>>>>>>>>>train that was original destined for  Cardiff according to the
>>>>>>>>>what he and his team were supposed to do next and  where.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] I think some were being sent to Guildford to get up to
>>>>>>>>>Waterloo  from there as the direct Waterloo trains were
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  None of that appears to involve XC, so the underlying question
>>>>>>>>remains  unanswered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fortunately for XC, their trains were largely unaffected, not
>>>>>>>needing  to head to/from Paddington. However they were being
>>>>>>>replatformed at  short notice because of the congestion caused by
>>>>>>>the terminating GWR  trains using far more space than normal. GWR
>>>>>>>staff were happily  redirecting passengers as needed. All tannoy
>>>>>>>announcements were manual  and done by the same voice for the hour or >>>so I was there.
>>>>
>>>>>>  I'm sure they were but you fixating the same simple issue of
>>>>>>directing  pax, not the far more complicated dealing with XC's
>>>>>>control to sort out  more demanding issues. I presume you have no
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would I?
>>
>>>>  Because you claim to have some knowledge of the operations at
>>>>Reading.
>>>
>>> I only know what I've seen, I've made no claims to have inside
>>>information.

>> OK, in that case I will continue to take the default position that
>>GWR staff would be very reluctant to help out XC passengers (other
>>than the trivial task of telling them platform numbers).
>
>For which you have no evidence.

Only a lifetime's experience.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:56:32 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <usrpab$rajn$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:49:15 on Wed, 13 Mar
>2024, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>The hardware to impliment such a system can be purchased for about the
>>same cost as a train guard uniform, as a simple commodity smartphone
>>has all the functionality needed.
>
>I've never seen a smartphone with an integrated printer, but I suppose
>it's not impossible. Need something to hold the reel of blank tickets
>though.

Why does it need to be integrated? You have a mini printer where a smartphone
can be slid into in some slot to connect them.

On 13/03/2024 10:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <9cs2vidnuoqbfn02uaoltb3aql9bc8ev44@4ax.com>, at 09:28:09 on
> Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>> PAYG would be standard class only obviously. You'd have to show a
>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>> in 1st class.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a fundamental gotcha in the quest for universal PAYG.
>>>>
>>>> There are ways round this for first class. Whichever app you have
>>>> for PAYG
>>>
>>> I'm using a contactless credit card, and it doesn't have a button on it.
>>> I also don't use an app dedicated to online banking for that card, but
>>> even if I did I'd find it very surprising to see such a button there.
>>>
>>
>> Why not just a wall-mounted card reader in first? If you ride in there
>> you touch in.
>
> How does that card reader communicate the fact you've touched it, to the
> PAYG back office? Yes, I know, the pipedream of always-on connectivity.
>
> TOCs can't even keep the wifi working on many of their trains, so what
> hope is there?

Perhaps the gripper visits it and downloads the numbers[1] of the cards
which have touched it on this journey before checking tickets. This can
be over train wi-fi, Bluetooth or even a good old-fashioned bit of wire.

Communication to back office for PAYG billing isn't urgent and can
happen at the depot, unless you're worried about someone having enough
money in their account for a standard fare but not a first class one.

[1] or, better for security and privacy, one-way hashes of those numbers

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <usrpab$rajn$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:49:15 on Wed, 13 Mar
> 2024, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 13.03.2024 09:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <usq40t$dnmr$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:39:41 on Tue, 12 Mar
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> We don't even need a printed receipt.  The purple reader (with
>>>>> gold and
>>>>> ermine trim) can simply update the same database that the normal gate
>>>>> reader uses but, rather than recording a journey, sets the first_class
>>>>> flag for use both in billing and in appeasing any gripper who visits.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The problem with a platform based 1st class validator is that a
>>>> touch in might not make it to the gripper’s local database in
>>>> time. A gripper ought to have immediate access to a train based
>>>> validator.
>
>>> Oh, so we also need to issue all guards with brand new data-caching
>>> ticket machines do we?
>>
>> The hardware to impliment such a system can be purchased for about the
>> same cost as a train guard uniform, as a simple commodity smartphone
>> has all the functionality needed.
>
> I've never seen a smartphone with an integrated printer, but I suppose
> it's not impossible. Need something to hold the reel of blank tickets
> though.

The Bluetooth protocol was invented over 20 years ago for exactly this kind
of application. A portable ticket printer in a bag or on a belt holster
that connects to a phone running an app will do the job just fine.

>> Large onboard storage, data connectivity, NFC interaction capabilities,
>> high resolution camera for checkign barcode or QR code tickets.
>> Capability of running custom software for issuing tickets or providing
>> answers to passenger queries about timetabling, routing or other issues.
>
> All possible, but a bit of a pipedream, given how little down any of
> those roads we are 30yrs after the introduction of mobile phones with
> data connections.

This so called pipe dream has been a reality in CH for 5+ years. The
technical, economic and operational challenges have been solved and it
works.

> One of the problems with the inter-availability of ITSO ticketing from
> one TOC to another is no-one can be bothered to make an industry
> standard handheld ITSO reader for more than one TOC's cards.

At this point, when multiple other countries have deployed systems that
deliver on all the promises that ITSO made and failed to deliver on I
genuinely wonder what ITSO is for anymore. Why continue to spend money on a
system that might one day might perhaps finish reinventing the wheel when
the same money can buy an off the shelf system with proven in service
capabilities.

>> Even comes with the ability for the gripper in question to have a
>> real-time two-way voice conversation with someone at a remote location
>> if the need arises.
>
> You didn't get the memo about not-spots, I take it? You'd also probably
> find the person on the other was "unusually busy" and assure him his
> "call was important". Meanwhile, the passenger has reached his
> destination and got off the train.

Not-spots are not unique to the UK. The systems already in service have
sufficient tolerance to them that they give an acceptable level of proven
in-service performance.

Robin

On 13/03/2024 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
> You didn't get the memo about not-spots, I take it? You'd also probably
> find the person on the other was "unusually busy" and assure him his
> "call was important". Meanwhile, the passenger has reached his
> destination and got off the train.

Perhaps in a few years time someone will have the brilliant idea of
printing a ticket with all the information on it?

I know which I would have more faith.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <usq40t$dnmr$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:39:41 on Tue, 12 Mar
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> We don't even need a printed receipt. The purple reader (with gold and
>>> ermine trim) can simply update the same database that the normal gate
>>> reader uses but, rather than recording a journey, sets the first_class
>>> flag for use both in billing and in appeasing any gripper who visits.
>>>
>>
>> The problem with a platform based 1st class validator is that a touch in
>> might not make it to the gripper’s local database in time. A gripper ought
>> to have immediate access to a train based validator.
>
> Oh, so we also need to issue all guards with brand new data-caching
> ticket machines do we?

It’s probably a software upgrade to what they already have for examining
e-tickets. If not, it’s roughly the price of a mobile phone, perhaps
doubled due to being a bit niche. EMR appear to use a mobile phone type
device to check e-tickets. An NFC reader on that is trivial, as is an in
train data link to an onboard validator. By the way, on board validators
are a known technology, many continental trams use them, as do (I believe,
never been on one) London Buses. From the info I’ve read, London bus
inspectors download information from the bus validator before conducting a
ticket check, so the basic concept is already in operation.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 14:32:37 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <usq40t$dnmr$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:39:41 on Tue, 12 Mar
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> We don't even need a printed receipt. The purple reader (with gold and
>>>> ermine trim) can simply update the same database that the normal gate
>>>> reader uses but, rather than recording a journey, sets the first_class
>>>> flag for use both in billing and in appeasing any gripper who visits.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The problem with a platform based 1st class validator is that a touch in
>>> might not make it to the gripper’s local database in time. A gripper ought
>>> to have immediate access to a train based validator.
>>
>> Oh, so we also need to issue all guards with brand new data-caching
>> ticket machines do we?
>
>It’s probably a software upgrade to what they already have for examining
>e-tickets. If not, it’s roughly the price of a mobile phone, perhaps
>doubled due to being a bit niche. EMR appear to use a mobile phone type
>device to check e-tickets. An NFC reader on that is trivial, as is an in
>train data link to an onboard validator. By the way, on board validators
>are a known technology, many continental trams use them, as do (I believe,
>never been on one) London Buses. From the info I’ve read, London bus
>inspectors download information from the bus validator before conducting a
>ticket check, so the basic concept is already in operation.

No, I don't think that's how it works. The inspectors can check if Oyster cards were used to pay the fare (as they store
the relevant data), but with credit cards (which don't), they simply touch the card, and are told whether the payment
method is accepted or declined, but not whether it was used to pay the fare. The back office subsequently checks if the
card had been used to pay the bus fare, in which case no further charge is made. If the card hadn't been used to pay the
fare, the user will be charged a penalty fare.

On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 05:57:33 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <raovui1j2k27h0kfrrirauckjpebe5g3mt@4ax.com>, at 05:00:58 on
>Tue, 12 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 02:33:25 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <fv4sui9e4ghveq6gl8nhoqijq0hu8287ie@4ax.com>, at 20:12:29 on
>>>Sun, 10 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 20:03:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <i20suid1c2ahkndfhr1bsjulne6pr9qsfk@4ax.com>, at 18:51:31 on
>>>>>Sun, 10 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 05:29:41 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In message <55bquitsttu3aib99jmbgi0ab9ur6c64hg@4ax.com>, at 03:46:14 on
>>>>>>>Sun, 10 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Unless he uses pre-paid cards, which tend *not* to be contactless.
>>>>>>>>>Indeed a few years ago I struggled to find any which *were*.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Health Service Discount cards are contactless pre-paid Visa cards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Can I buy one of those in Tesco?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>You don't buy them anywhere; you qualify for one by being a relevant
>>>>>>worker or a family member.
>>>>>
>>>>>Exactly, so bringing them into a conversation about ordinary people and
>>>>>their cards is only an unwelcome distraction, although you are rather
>>>>>fond of those.
>>>>>
>>>>Aren't the many thousands of health service workers and their families
>>>>"ordinary people"?
>>>
>>>No they are key workers, and have all sorts of privileges as a result.
>>>
>>So you don't recognise a marketing ploy when you see it.
>
>There's an element of that, but if it was the main driver there'd be
>other cards for other CUGs. For example Teachers,
>
https://www.discountsforteachers.co.uk/cashback-card
(I didn't know either)

>or Over-70's
>
Age-related discounts seem more led by individual retailers/sellers.

>or
>whatever. The only one I'm aware of is eBay power sellers, but that
>doesn't offer a discount (although it can be used to buy things from
>anyone who takes CCC, not just other eBay sellers).
>
>>>>>>>Given that the main reason for not having contactless on pre-pay
>>>>>>>cards is to reduce bad debts, a closed user group like Heath
>>>>>>>Service is likely to be fairly free from that sort of expolitaton.
>>>>>>>

On 13/03/2024 08:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> According to the letter of the rules, passing through a 1st class
>> coach is "travelling in 1st class".
>
> That's not a rule I've seen, and there are too many trains where a First
> Class cabin is sandwiched between Standard sections (either mid-unit, or
> when going from one multiple unit to the next past end-of-unit FC
> cabins) for it to be realistic.

Famous case of a guy using the first class door to exit a train at
Didcot because the doorway of the standard coach he actually travelled
in was blocked. He was still prosecuted as the company claimed the
vestibule was part of the First Class accommodation.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 10:00:51 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <9cs2vidnuoqbfn02uaoltb3aql9bc8ev44@4ax.com>, at 09:28:09 on
>Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>> PAYG would be standard class only obviously. You'd have to show a ticket
>>>>>> in 1st class.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a fundamental gotcha in the quest for universal PAYG.
>>>>
>>>>There are ways round this for first class. Whichever app you have for PAYG
>>>
>>>I'm using a contactless credit card, and it doesn't have a button on it.
>>>I also don't use an app dedicated to online banking for that card, but
>>>even if I did I'd find it very surprising to see such a button there.
>>>
>>
>>Why not just a wall-mounted card reader in first? If you ride in there
>>you touch in.
>
>How does that card reader communicate the fact you've touched it, to the
>PAYG back office? Yes, I know, the pipedream of always-on connectivity.
>
The same way that a reader on a bus or tram does? It doesn't need to
be always-on so long as it can send its data within a reasonable
length of time and can be interrogated by M. le Gripper if required.

>TOCs can't even keep the wifi working on many of their trains, so what
>hope is there?

On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 18:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <usacpp$ibvm$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:31:21 on Wed, 6 Mar
> 2024, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 15:52:38 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> In message <us9u6d$f0dv$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:22:06 on Wed, 6 Mar
>>> 2024, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 08:44:02 +1100, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/3/24 22:59, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Waiting for some twat to sort their phone out so they can go
>>>>>> through a gate on the tube is one of lifes annoyances when you know
>>>>>> perfectly well they've got a card they could use. I simply don't
>>>>>> get the point of phone pay, what purpose does it serve?
>>>>>
>>>>> If setup properly, using 'contactless' on a phone IS quicker. I've
>>>>> been paying transport fares with my Android phone for 4 years.
>>>>> (Including in London on visits).
>>>>
>>>>How quaint. I just use my watch...
>>>
>>> You've got a Railcard on your watch?
>>
>>No, I have a bank card on my watch (or more accurately, my watch
>>pretends to be a contactless bank card, same as my phone.)
>
> Glad we got there in the end. So your watch is not a comprehensive
> substitute for traditional methods (lacking as it does any Railcard
> capability).

"Got there in the end"? You mean, to the imaginary conversation you were
having?

I guess we did. However if you look back, you'll note that I made no
comment on and have no interest in my watch being a comprehensive
substitute for anything - I merely noted that I pay for my transport fares
with my watch (and have done for years.)

Given I don't live in the UK, I honestly couldn't give a rat's arse about
railcards, or indeed any of the other quaint little bits of paper you love
to collect.

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 09:30:30 +0000, Certes wrote:

> On 10/03/2024 05:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <55bquitsttu3aib99jmbgi0ab9ur6c64hg@4ax.com>, at 03:46:14 on
>> Sun, 10 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>
>>>> Unless he uses pre-paid cards, which tend *not* to be contactless.
>>>> Indeed a few years ago I struggled to find any which *were*.
>>>>
>>> Health Service Discount cards are contactless pre-paid Visa cards.
>>
>> Can I buy one of those in Tesco? Given that the main reason for not
>> having contactless on pre-pay cards is to reduce bad debts, a closed
>> user group like Heath Service is likely to be fairly free from that
>> sort of expolitaton.
>
> I'm struggling to see how I can run up a bad debt if I pre-pay, but
> there must obviously be more to this than meets the eye.

Roland is, not for the first time, conflating two entirely different
things.

Prepay cards are "online authorisation only" - that is to say, they have a
limit that the card is allowed to authorise without an online balance
check of 0. These cards can only be used with online connected terminals;
the typical giveaway of an OAO card in the past was that it didn't have
the raised lettering required to imprint on a click-clack machine (but
nowadays most cards have dropped that, given click-clack machines are a
historical relic.) They do normally have words to the effect of
"Electronic Use Only" in the small print on the back of the card though.

(OAO is how prepay cards prevent negative balances. It's entirely
possible for an OAO prepay card to conduct a contactless transaction - the
terminal just has to be online. Which, in countries without a creaking
legacy X.25 banking network (so not the UK or US, then,) almost all are.)

There are plenty of prepay debit cards that support contactless; here is
Mastercard UK's site - you can see many of them have a tick in the
'Contactless' column...

https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/personal/find-a-card/general-prepaid-
mastercard.html

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 07/03/2024 07:28, Tweed wrote:
>> Actually they do want to declare their cash transactions. It launders drug
>> money. Declare a much larger number of haircuts than actually took place.
>> Hard to prove that these didn’t happen unless the business is observed for
>> an extended period. Pay taxes, produce accounts and then you can pay the
>> cash into a bank account. Probably applies to some vape shops as well.
>> There’s a lot of barbers and vape shops that appear to have very little
>> custom yet remain open and able to pay the rent. It’s no coincidence that
>> there has been an explosion in such outlets after the tightening of money
>> laundering regulations cut off some of the more traditional methods. I
>> gather that laundrettes are now becoming another method. Over the years
>> they all but vanished from the high street, but are now appearing again.
>
> Edinburgh has a surprising number of new American sweet shops.

Edinburgh[1] has quite a number of odd shops. In times past there were
both a bike shop and a music shop which really gave the impression that
customers were a bit of a nuisance and they’d much rather you went
somewhere else. The bike shop closed and the music shop is reportedly
under new management; I went there a couple of years ago and they actually
sold me something for the first time since the early 1970s.

[1] I say Edinburgh because it’s what I know, not because I think it’s
special, at least not in this respect.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 04/04/2024 21:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>> On 07/03/2024 07:28, Tweed wrote:
>>> Actually they do want to declare their cash transactions. It launders drug
>>> money. Declare a much larger number of haircuts than actually took place.
>>> Hard to prove that these didn’t happen unless the business is observed for
>>> an extended period. Pay taxes, produce accounts and then you can pay the
>>> cash into a bank account. Probably applies to some vape shops as well.
>>> There’s a lot of barbers and vape shops that appear to have very little
>>> custom yet remain open and able to pay the rent. It’s no coincidence that
>>> there has been an explosion in such outlets after the tightening of money
>>> laundering regulations cut off some of the more traditional methods. I
>>> gather that laundrettes are now becoming another method. Over the years
>>> they all but vanished from the high street, but are now appearing again.
>>
>> Edinburgh has a surprising number of new American sweet shops.
>
> Edinburgh[1] has quite a number of odd shops. In times past there were
> both a bike shop and a music shop which really gave the impression that
> customers were a bit of a nuisance and they’d much rather you went
> somewhere else. The bike shop closed and the music shop is reportedly
> under new management; I went there a couple of years ago and they actually
> sold me something for the first time since the early 1970s.
>
> [1] I say Edinburgh because it’s what I know, not because I think it’s
> special, at least not in this respect.

Edinburgh has a couple of other types of shop that I don't recall seeing
in most cities I know. One is the ubiquitous tartan tat store with loud
bagpipe music and plastic souvenirs made in the far east. Each has a
different name over the door but reputedly they are owned by the same
rather unpleasant entrepreneur. The other type is the small shop in a
residential street away from the city centre, which never seems to be
open and looks as if the sole proprietor has not visited for some time.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 20:59:20 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>>
>> Edinburgh has a surprising number of new American sweet shops.
>

Apparently there are, or have been, a number of these in Oxford
Street, London. They appear to be fly-by-night opperations that don't
last long. The 'normal' traders don't like them and complain they are
not paying their fair share in overheads, so are uncompetitive,
because they abandon their premises before their business tax is due.
I don't know if this is the same in Edinburgh, or if I've described
the situation correctly. It's a while since I read it.

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 12:20:16 +0100, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:

>On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 20:59:20 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Edinburgh has a surprising number of new American sweet shops.
>>
>
>Apparently there are, or have been, a number of these in Oxford
>Street, London. They appear to be fly-by-night opperations that don't
>last long. The 'normal' traders don't like them and complain they are
>not paying their fair share in overheads, so are uncompetitive,
>because they abandon their premises before their business tax is due.

Also, they drive away normal, bigger spending tourists. There's currently rejoicing that the number of those shops is
falling, as normal retailers are returning to Oxford Street, partly because of the Liz.

>I don't know if this is the same in Edinburgh, or if I've described
>the situation correctly. It's a while since I read it.

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 12:20:16 +0100
Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 20:59:20 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Edinburgh has a surprising number of new American sweet shops.
>>
>
>Apparently there are, or have been, a number of these in Oxford
>Street, London. They appear to be fly-by-night opperations that don't

Loads of them in Oxford Street.

>last long. The 'normal' traders don't like them and complain they are
>not paying their fair share in overheads, so are uncompetitive,
>because they abandon their premises before their business tax is due.

Thats because they're mostly money laundering operations. Why there hasn't been
a crackdown by plod fuck knows.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <usk031$2tab0$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:55:45 on Sun, 10 Mar
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <usjpv9$2s3s4$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:21 on Sun, 10 Mar
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <hanpuih07b4so4u92d36qoad1il7862plu@4ax.com>, at 22:06:29 on
>>>>> Sat, 9 Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 18:30:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <S16GN.318682$7uxe.169487@fx09.ams1>, at 22:23:46 on Wed, 6
>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <Nj2GN.318678$7uxe.258915@fx09.ams1>, at 18:09:49 on Wed, 6
>>>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <JN1GN.196058$ds1.177981@fx14.ams1>, at 17:33:29 on Wed, 6
>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <NN0GN.17866$Mbc3.14455@fx08.ams1>, at 16:25:17 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 6 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does HMT empty the cash from the TVMs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a bloke in a van, but I don't think he gets to keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And he may well not be a TOC employee, either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, wearing a TOC uniform doesn't mean they are an employee,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a contractor. Doesn't change the answer to the question,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are avoiding, of where the cash ends up next.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've no idea, but why does it matter?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it does, because you insist the TOC has no role in the chain of
>>>>>>>>>>> events.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is just a main contractor carrying out lots of detailed
>>>>>>>>>> instructions
>>>>>>>>>> (some of which will be executed by sub-contractors). The fares
>>>>>>>>>> cash might
>>>>>>>>>> pass through it, but it no more owns or controls the cash than
>>>>>>>>>> does the
>>>>>>>>>> bank clerk who might also handle it on its way to HMT.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But like the bank clerk they are compelled to count the money
>>>>>>>>> and record
>>>>>>>>> how much it was. Which is sufficient to facilitate the profit-centre
>>>>>>>>> calculations you seem so dismissive of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The GBRTT management accounts are being calculated at a route, not TOC,
>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cite?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Ford's long write-up on the subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not a cite, it's a precis.
>>>>
>>>> I think you need to cite your definition of cite here.
>>>
>>> It's a link to the relevant source material, so the reader can access it
>>> and decide if the precis is accurate or not.
>>
>> No, that’s your personal definition.
>
> it also happens to be the accepted definition (see the footnotes on
> Wikipedia, or on any peer reviewed paper, or the better written
> consultation documents).

Coming late to this (I’ve been moving house and getting behind) that’s not
how a leading University’s dictionary defines it.

<https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/cite>

Sam

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On 9/4/2024 7:22 am, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <usk031$2tab0$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:55:45 on Sun, 10 Mar
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <usjpv9$2s3s4$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:11:21 on Sun, 10 Mar
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <hanpuih07b4so4u92d36qoad1il7862plu@4ax.com>, at 22:06:29 on
>>>>>> Sat, 9 Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 18:30:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <S16GN.318682$7uxe.169487@fx09.ams1>, at 22:23:46 on Wed, 6
>>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <Nj2GN.318678$7uxe.258915@fx09.ams1>, at 18:09:49 on Wed, 6
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <JN1GN.196058$ds1.177981@fx14.ams1>, at 17:33:29 on Wed, 6
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <NN0GN.17866$Mbc3.14455@fx08.ams1>, at 16:25:17 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 6 Mar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2024, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does HMT empty the cash from the TVMs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a bloke in a van, but I don't think he gets to keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And he may well not be a TOC employee, either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, wearing a TOC uniform doesn't mean they are an employee,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a contractor. Doesn't change the answer to the question,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are avoiding, of where the cash ends up next.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've no idea, but why does it matter?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it does, because you insist the TOC has no role in the chain of
>>>>>>>>>>>> events.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is just a main contractor carrying out lots of detailed
>>>>>>>>>>> instructions
>>>>>>>>>>> (some of which will be executed by sub-contractors). The fares
>>>>>>>>>>> cash might
>>>>>>>>>>> pass through it, but it no more owns or controls the cash than
>>>>>>>>>>> does the
>>>>>>>>>>> bank clerk who might also handle it on its way to HMT.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But like the bank clerk they are compelled to count the money
>>>>>>>>>> and record
>>>>>>>>>> how much it was. Which is sufficient to facilitate the profit-centre
>>>>>>>>>> calculations you seem so dismissive of.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The GBRTT management accounts are being calculated at a route, not TOC,
>>>>>>>>> level.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cite?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Ford's long write-up on the subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not a cite, it's a precis.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you need to cite your definition of cite here.
>>>>
>>>> It's a link to the relevant source material, so the reader can access it
>>>> and decide if the precis is accurate or not.
>>>
>>> No, that’s your personal definition.
>>
>> it also happens to be the accepted definition (see the footnotes on
>> Wikipedia, or on any peer reviewed paper, or the better written
>> consultation documents).
>
> Coming late to this (I’ve been moving house and getting behind) that’s not
> how a leading University’s dictionary defines it.
>
> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/cite>
>
> Sam
>
> To mention something as proof for a theory
> or as a reason why something has happened:

Looks to me a link to relevant material can indeed be a cite. Having
spent some dozen years at uni and many after that on various theses, I
can assure you the term "cite" fits rather well and is used fequently in
higher education.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 04/04/2024 21:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2024 07:28, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Actually they do want to declare their cash transactions. It launders drug
>>>> money. Declare a much larger number of haircuts than actually took place.
>>>> Hard to prove that these didn’t happen unless the business is observed for
>>>> an extended period. Pay taxes, produce accounts and then you can pay the
>>>> cash into a bank account. Probably applies to some vape shops as well.
>>>> There’s a lot of barbers and vape shops that appear to have very little
>>>> custom yet remain open and able to pay the rent. It’s no coincidence that
>>>> there has been an explosion in such outlets after the tightening of money
>>>> laundering regulations cut off some of the more traditional methods. I
>>>> gather that laundrettes are now becoming another method. Over the years
>>>> they all but vanished from the high street, but are now appearing again.
>>>
>>> Edinburgh has a surprising number of new American sweet shops.
>>
>> Edinburgh[1] has quite a number of odd shops. In times past there were
>> both a bike shop and a music shop which really gave the impression that
>> customers were a bit of a nuisance and they’d much rather you went
>> somewhere else. The bike shop closed and the music shop is reportedly
>> under new management; I went there a couple of years ago and they actually
>> sold me something for the first time since the early 1970s.
>>
>> [1] I say Edinburgh because it’s what I know, not because I think it’s
>> special, at least not in this respect.
>
> Edinburgh has a couple of other types of shop that I don't recall seeing
> in most cities I know. One is the ubiquitous tartan tat store with loud
> bagpipe music and plastic souvenirs made in the far east. Each has a
> different name over the door but reputedly they are owned by the same
> rather unpleasant entrepreneur. …

I can’t confirm the rumours, but these seem to be fairly ubiquitous and,
while slightly irritating, are fairly easy to ignore.

> … The other type is the small shop in a
> residential street away from the city centre, which never seems to be
> open and looks as if the sole proprietor has not visited for some time.

We do seem to have a number of “open Tuesday morning and every second
Thursday afternoon” type shops. I the current Cost of Living Crisis[tm]
the number of empty shops, often formerly cafes, is increasing quite
rapidly.

Sam

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