On 13/04/2024 23:03, Recliner wrote:
> No, Jacobite services do resume with the short train on Monday.

Have they published a timetable yet?

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 13/04/2024 23:03, Recliner wrote:
>> No, Jacobite services do resume with the short train on Monday.
>
>
>
> Have they published a timetable yet?

They seem to be sticking with the published timetable:

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/jacobite/timetables

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:FTW/2024-04-15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=WR

In message <1soqek-9ol.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 17:35:45 on Sat, 13
Apr 2024, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:

>> Most are drawn by the association with the Harry Potter films: a lunchtime
>> Scotrail service deposited 70 people in Mallaig last week, according to Mr
>
>From a sample of one train. Out of four. In April.

It may also have been only one two-car unit. When I took the trip (back
from Mallaig) last summer it was a 2+2, and absolutely heaving, full and
standing in aisles and vestibules. What with the heat, and noise, and
bad-tempered overcrowding (not to mention alcohol ban) it was one the
most unpleasant train trips I've had in years.

Photographing the viaduct from inside the train as you pass over is
almost impossible. I've heard it said (although never mentioned in
articles about it) that a big problem is the "enthusiasts" who hang
out of open windows on the heritage train the try to get a better photo.
--
Roland Perry

In message <uvefev$3446q$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:30:07 on Sat, 13 Apr
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 12/04/2024 10:40, Recliner wrote:
>>> WCR is trying it on again, appealing for the sympathy and tourist
>>> attraction votes:
>>>
>>>
>>>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/11/steam-trains-face-end-
>>>line-britain-row-over-slamming-doors/
>>>
>>> Quote, with notes from me:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Mr Shuttleworth added that the Hogwarts Express had “become a key part of
>>> the Highland economy.”
>>>
>>> The Jacobite train runs 300 services a year along the 41-mile route between
>>> Fort William and Mallaig, carrying a total of 110,000 passengers.
>>>
>>> Most are drawn by the association with the Harry Potter films: a lunchtime
>>> Scotrail service deposited 70 people in Mallaig last week, according to Mr
>>
>> From a sample of one train. Out of four. In April.
>>
>>> Shuttleworth, whereas West Coast’s two daily trips typically bring in 700.
>>
>> When they run two trains, so in the peak season.
>
>It’s a shame Scotrail don’t get their act together to at least run longer
>trains and possibly buy and run some panoramic trains like the RhB .

It's not in the central belt, and most of the passengers aren't Scottish
voters, so why would they care?
--
Roland Perry

In message <uvg1m2$3ha3e$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:47:15 on Sun, 14 Apr
2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 22:35:08 +0100, Alan Lee wrote:
>> And, after Googling it, they have been given another temporary licence,
>> one service a day, less passengers per train. Starts on Monday.
>> So CDL is not a safety critical item after all?
>
>It depends on the conditions. Plenty of heritage lines run trains with no
>central door locking. Some run trams that don't even have doors! But they
>run at low speed, and usually on lines without major civil engineering.
>The Jacobite runs much faster, and over rugged terrain (and Glenfinnan
>Viaduct), so the risk from someone falling out is higher.
>
>WCR contends that manual door locks and stewards are sufficient to avert
>this risk, ORR has decided it's not sufficient. It's not clear what's in
>the temporary license, but it's possible "less passengers per train" means
>less coaches, and so more stewards per door. It's also likely that they've
>specified more training and supervision. But ORR (and their predecessors)
>don't like relying solely on human supervision for safety, so the issue is
>far from settled.

Fewer!

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uvefev$3446q$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:30:07 on Sat, 13 Apr
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2024 10:40, Recliner wrote:
>>>> WCR is trying it on again, appealing for the sympathy and tourist
>>>> attraction votes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/11/steam-trains-face-end-
>>>> line-britain-row-over-slamming-doors/
>>>>
>>>> Quote, with notes from me:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> Mr Shuttleworth added that the Hogwarts Express had “become a key part of
>>>> the Highland economy.”
>>>>
>>>> The Jacobite train runs 300 services a year along the 41-mile route between
>>>> Fort William and Mallaig, carrying a total of 110,000 passengers.
>>>>
>>>> Most are drawn by the association with the Harry Potter films: a lunchtime
>>>> Scotrail service deposited 70 people in Mallaig last week, according to Mr
>>>
>>> From a sample of one train. Out of four. In April.
>>>
>>>> Shuttleworth, whereas West Coast’s two daily trips typically bring in 700.
>>>
>>> When they run two trains, so in the peak season.
>>
>> It’s a shame Scotrail don’t get their act together to at least run longer
>> trains and possibly buy and run some panoramic trains like the RhB .
>
> It's not in the central belt, and most of the passengers aren't Scottish
> voters, so why would they care?

Because it could be profitable for Scotrail, which the Scottish government
are financially responsible for.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:05:07 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uvefev$3446q$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:30:07 on Sat, 13 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 12/04/2024 10:40, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> WCR is trying it on again, appealing for the sympathy and tourist
>>>>> attraction votes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/11/steam-trains-face-end-
>>>>> line-britain-row-over-slamming-doors/
>>>>>
>>>>> Quote, with notes from me:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>> Mr Shuttleworth added that the Hogwarts Express had “become a key part of
>>>>> the Highland economy.”
>>>>>
>>>>> The Jacobite train runs 300 services a year along the 41-mile route between
>>>>> Fort William and Mallaig, carrying a total of 110,000 passengers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most are drawn by the association with the Harry Potter films: a lunchtime
>>>>> Scotrail service deposited 70 people in Mallaig last week, according to Mr
>>>>
>>>> From a sample of one train. Out of four. In April.
>>>>
>>>>> Shuttleworth, whereas West Coast’s two daily trips typically bring in 700.
>>>>
>>>> When they run two trains, so in the peak season.
>>>
>>> It’s a shame Scotrail don’t get their act together to at least run longer
>>> trains and possibly buy and run some panoramic trains like the RhB .
>>
>> It's not in the central belt, and most of the passengers aren't Scottish
>> voters, so why would they care?
>
>Because it could be profitable for Scotrail, which the Scottish government
>are financially responsible for.

It might also attract visitors to the area, if they were promoted as scenic trains, as Switzerland does on many routes.

Graeme Wall wrote:

> On 13/04/2024 13:37, Ermintrudethecat wrote:
>> Recliner wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 14:01:48 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 12/04/2024 10:40, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> “Other charter heritage operators, which use the mainline railway, have
>>>>> made the necessary investment to install central door locking on
>>>>> ‘hinged
>>>>> door’ rolling stock (or have committed to do so over a transition
>>>>> period)
>>>>> and it remains open to WCRC to do the same.”
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Says it all
>>
>>> Yup.
>>
>>> Smithy just seems determined to run his own 1:1 train set his own way,
>>> regardless of the rules set by the owner of the
>>> track layout he runs his toys on. It's time he retired (he's 77) and
>>> sold WCR to a more competent operator with an eye
>>> to the future.
>>
>> I remember reading about Smithy in a certain tuppenny magazine some
>> sixty five years ago. Over his head there was usually written "Not very
>> bright" or else "Smiffy always gets things wrong". Could this be the
>> same person, or at least a close relative?
>>
>> Andrew and Ermintrude Clarke
>> Canberra

> Be just dandy if it were true…

Be no surprise would it?

A&EC
C

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uvg1m2$3ha3e$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:47:15 on Sun, 14 Apr
> 2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 22:35:08 +0100, Alan Lee wrote:
>>> And, after Googling it, they have been given another temporary licence,
>>> one service a day, less passengers per train. Starts on Monday.
>>> So CDL is not a safety critical item after all?
>>
>> It depends on the conditions. Plenty of heritage lines run trains with no
>> central door locking. Some run trams that don't even have doors! But they
>> run at low speed, and usually on lines without major civil engineering.
>> The Jacobite runs much faster, and over rugged terrain (and Glenfinnan
>> Viaduct), so the risk from someone falling out is higher.
>>
>> WCR contends that manual door locks and stewards are sufficient to avert
>> this risk, ORR has decided it's not sufficient. It's not clear what's in
>> the temporary license, but it's possible "less passengers per train" means
>> less coaches, and so more stewards per door. It's also likely that they've
>> specified more training and supervision. But ORR (and their predecessors)
>> don't like relying solely on human supervision for safety, so the issue is
>> far from settled.
>
> Fewer!

Hurrah! We may be fighting a losing battle, but I’m with you on this one -
clearly my early education stuck!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 14/04/2024 17:51, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uvg1m2$3ha3e$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:47:15 on Sun, 14 Apr
>> 2024, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>> WCR contends that manual door locks and stewards are sufficient to avert
>>> this risk, ORR has decided it's not sufficient. It's not clear what's in
>>> the temporary license, but it's possible "less passengers per train" means
>>> less coaches, and so more stewards per door. It's also likely that they've
>>> specified more training and supervision. But ORR (and their predecessors)
>>> don't like relying solely on human supervision for safety, so the issue is
>>> far from settled.
>>
>> Fewer!
>
> Hurrah! We may be fighting a losing battle, but I’m with you on this one -
> clearly my early education stuck!

Soon they'll be asking, "How much passengers per train?"

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 13/04/2024 23:03, Recliner wrote:
>>> No, Jacobite services do resume with the short train on Monday.
>>
>>
>>
>> Have they published a timetable yet?
>
> They seem to be sticking with the published timetable:
>
> https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/jacobite/timetables
>
> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:FTW/2024-04-15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=WR
>

Oops:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C10935/2024-04-15/detailed

On 15/04/2024 17:53, Recliner wrote:

> Oops:
>
> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C10935/2024-04-15/detailed
>

Another set of mixed Mk. 1 and 2 stock, with 2 Black 5s and a 47 on the
rear went North today, passing Dumfries around 15.45, up the GSWR, not
the WCML that has been used prior to this one.

On 14/04/2024 13:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <1soqek-9ol.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 17:35:45 on Sat, 13
> Apr 2024, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>
>>> Most are drawn by the association with the Harry Potter films: a
>>> lunchtime
>>> Scotrail service deposited 70 people in Mallaig last week, according
>>> to Mr
>>
>> From a sample of one train. Out of four. In April.
>
> It may also have been only one two-car unit. When I took the trip (back
> from Mallaig) last summer it was a 2+2, and absolutely heaving, full and
> standing in aisles and vestibules. What with the heat, and noise, and
> bad-tempered overcrowding (not to mention alcohol ban) it was one the
> most unpleasant train trips I've had in years.
>
> Photographing the viaduct from inside the train as you pass over is
> almost impossible. I've heard it said (although never mentioned in
> articles about it) that a big problem is the "enthusiasts" who hang
> out of open windows on the heritage train the try to get a better photo.

I was on the first "return to steam" trip back in (?) 1984, and they had
a photo runpast. Ladders were provided to enable passengers to descend
to track level, and the train backed across the viaduct beore doing the
runpast across the viaduct. Passengers then reboarded using the same
ladders. I doubt that the safety geeks would allow that now....

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
> On 15/04/2024 17:53, Recliner wrote:
>
>> Oops:
>>
>> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C10935/2024-04-15/detailed
>>
>
>
> Another set of mixed Mk. 1 and 2 stock, with 2 Black 5s and a 47 on the
> rear went North today, passing Dumfries around 15.45, up the GSWR, not
> the WCML that has been used prior to this one.
>

That was the GBVI:
https://www.railwaytouring.net/the-great-britain-xvi---april-2024

I doubt that its usual passengers will be happy travelling in Mk 2s. Also,
there's not the usual variety of traction this year. I see that Tangmere
was meant to be hauling it today.

https://youtu.be/DAELBowsKZM?si=Z7Vy1datWzJrU1TN

On 15/04/2024 21:33, Recliner wrote:
> I doubt that its usual passengers will be happy travelling in Mk 2s. Also,
> there's not the usual variety of traction this year. I see that Tangmere
> was meant to be hauling it today.

I meant to have a drive down this morning to take a look but forgot
about it.

On 15/04/2024 19:59, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 14/04/2024 13:40, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <1soqek-9ol.ln1@castle.rilynn.me.uk>, at 17:35:45 on Sat,
>> 13 Apr 2024, Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>> Most are drawn by the association with the Harry Potter films: a
>>>> lunchtime
>>>> Scotrail service deposited 70 people in Mallaig last week, according
>>>> to Mr
>>>
>>> From a sample of one train. Out of four. In April.
>>
>> It may also have been only one two-car unit. When I took the trip
>> (back from Mallaig) last summer it was a 2+2, and absolutely heaving,
>> full and standing in aisles and vestibules. What with the heat, and
>> noise, and bad-tempered overcrowding (not to mention alcohol ban) it
>> was one the most unpleasant train trips I've had in years.
>>
>> Photographing the viaduct from inside the train as you pass over is
>> almost impossible. I've heard it said (although never mentioned in
>> articles about it) that a big problem is the "enthusiasts" who hang
>> out of open windows on the heritage train the try to get a better photo.
>
>
> I was on the first "return to steam" trip back in (?) 1984, and they had
> a photo runpast. Ladders were provided to enable passengers to descend
> to track level, and the train backed across the viaduct beore doing the
> runpast across the viaduct. Passengers then reboarded using the same
> ladders. I doubt that the safety geeks would allow that now....
>
>
Indeed. I wasn't there, but I remember it happening. I also remember, in
1985, going on a steam-hauled (U of SA) excursion from Kilmarnock to
Keighley, via the Settle - Carlisle line. We stopped at one point on the
S-C line, and everyone was on the tracks, cameras out. No-one was killed
or maimed!

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/v969gp7ewao0v95ofwlo1/RailTour1985-1.jpg?rlkey=o3gsfbrxs60dn121jsvagrt9k&dl=0

I'm sure someone will know the exact location.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 23:19:29 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 15/04/2024 21:33, Recliner wrote:
>> I doubt that its usual passengers will be happy travelling in Mk 2s. Also,
>> there's not the usual variety of traction this year. I see that Tangmere
>> was meant to be hauling it today.
>
>
>
>I meant to have a drive down this morning to take a look but forgot
>about it.

Well, it's a good thing you didn't drive down to watch the afternoon return service!

On 16/04/2024 11:51, Recliner wrote:
> Well, it's a good thing you didn't drive down to watch the afternoon return service!

Didn't it return?

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 16/04/2024 11:51, Recliner wrote:
>> Well, it's a good thing you didn't drive down to watch the afternoon return service!
>
>
>
>
> Didn't it return?

Not with passengers.

I posted this yesterday:

Oops:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C10935/2024-04-15/detailed

On 16/04/2024 17:15, Recliner wrote:
> Not with passengers.
>
> I posted this yesterday:
>
> Oops:

Thanks, I missed that.