Graeme Wall wrote:

> On 22/04/2024 15:08, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 14:04:32 +0100
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>
>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>
>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired. The only
>>
>> Not surprised. Looks very overpowered with those engines for a plane that
>> short.
>>
>> It vaguely reminds me of the short dumpy 747 model that used to occasionaly
>> fly out of heathrow in the 80s and 90s. Haven't seen one for years. No doubt
>> that had the same issue.
>>
>>

> That was designed for long range, forget what route it was intended for.

NY <-> Tehran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747SP#Development

Regards, ULF

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Recliner wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:19:42 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>
>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>
>
>>>>>> I regard an A319 as a small plane!
>>>>>
>>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>
>>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired.
>>>> The only airlines that acquired them were those
>>>> with large A319/320/321 fleets who also needed a few smaller models,
>>>> even if these were inefficient to operate, rather
>>>> than getting some completely different smaller plane. The A220 now fills that role.
>>>
>>>> You now rarely see them in commercial services, as they were more
>>>> likely to be used as business jets. I've only flown on
>>>> an A318 once, from Florence to Paris.
>>>
>>> 10 of them operated by two EU flag carriers.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A318#Operators
>
>> That article is out of date. It's now down to just seven still in operation, (AF 6, RO 1).
>
> TAROM got rid of 3 318 during current April?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM#Current_fleet

They're out of service.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 14:04:32 +0100
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>
>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>
>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired. The only
>
> Not surprised. Looks very overpowered with those engines for a plane that
> short.

It's not overpowered, but is too wide and heavy for its role, so it's
inefficient. That's always the case with shrink models, which rarely sell
as well as stretch models.

>
> It vaguely reminds me of the short dumpy 747 model that used to occasionaly
> fly out of heathrow in the 80s and 90s. Haven't seen one for years. No doubt
> that had the same issue.
>

That was the 747SP, a shortened 747-100. It was done to give it a longer
range (and a higher speed), but that need largely disappeared when longer
range full length models were introduced. Only 45 were built, and they
lasted longer as VVIP transport than as airliners.

Ironically, the route that triggered the need was New York to Teheran,
which lost its importance soon after, when the Shah was deposed.

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747sp-differences-guide/

https://www.key.aero/article/boeing-747sps-heathrow

Recliner wrote:

> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> Recliner wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:19:42 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>
>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>>> I regard an A319 as a small plane!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>>
>>>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired.
>>>>> The only airlines that acquired them were those
>>>>> with large A319/320/321 fleets who also needed a few smaller models,
>>>>> even if these were inefficient to operate, rather
>>>>> than getting some completely different smaller plane. The A220 now fills that role.
>>>>
>>>>> You now rarely see them in commercial services, as they were more
>>>>> likely to be used as business jets. I've only flown on
>>>>> an A318 once, from Florence to Paris.
>>>>
>>>> 10 of them operated by two EU flag carriers.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A318#Operators
>>
>>> That article is out of date. It's now down to just seven still in operation, (AF 6, RO 1).
>>
>> TAROM got rid of 3 318 during current April?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM#Current_fleet

> They're out of service.

Great. TAROM would't let passengers know:
https://www.tarom.ro/en/despre-noi/tarom-company/fleet/

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240214-ns24318
shouldn't be feasible any more...

Regards, ULF

Recliner wrote:

> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 14:04:32 +0100
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>
>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>
>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired. The only
>>
>> Not surprised. Looks very overpowered with those engines for a plane that
>> short.

> It's not overpowered, but is too wide and heavy for its role, so it's
> inefficient. That's always the case with shrink models, which rarely sell
> as well as stretch models.

>>
>> It vaguely reminds me of the short dumpy 747 model that used to occasionaly
>> fly out of heathrow in the 80s and 90s. Haven't seen one for years. No doubt
>> that had the same issue.
>>

> That was the 747SP, a shortened 747-100. It was done to give it a longer
> range (and a higher speed), but that need largely disappeared when longer
> range full length models were introduced. Only 45 were built, and they
> lasted longer as VVIP transport than as airliners.

> Ironically, the route that triggered the need was New York to Teheran,
> which lost its importance soon after, when the Shah was deposed.

They made Tehran to Caracas via Damascus from 2017 but
could not take many passengers on the long Transatlantic
leg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air#The_Islamic_Revolution

Regards, ULF

ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
> Recliner wrote:
>
>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:19:42 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> I regard an A319 as a small plane!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired.
>>>>>> The only airlines that acquired them were those
>>>>>> with large A319/320/321 fleets who also needed a few smaller models,
>>>>>> even if these were inefficient to operate, rather
>>>>>> than getting some completely different smaller plane. The A220 now fills that role.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You now rarely see them in commercial services, as they were more
>>>>>> likely to be used as business jets. I've only flown on
>>>>>> an A318 once, from Florence to Paris.
>>>>>
>>>>> 10 of them operated by two EU flag carriers.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A318#Operators
>>>
>>>> That article is out of date. It's now down to just seven still in
>>>> operation, (AF 6, RO 1).
>>>
>>> TAROM got rid of 3 318 during current April?
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM#Current_fleet
>
>> They're out of service.
>
> Great. TAROM would't let passengers know:
> https://www.tarom.ro/en/despre-noi/tarom-company/fleet/
>
> https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240214-ns24318
> shouldn't be feasible any more...

Of its four A318s:

Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying YR-ASD
(3225):
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd

Recliner wrote:

> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>> Recliner wrote:
>>
>>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:19:42 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I regard an A319 as a small plane!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now retired.
>>>>>>> The only airlines that acquired them were those
>>>>>>> with large A319/320/321 fleets who also needed a few smaller models,
>>>>>>> even if these were inefficient to operate, rather
>>>>>>> than getting some completely different smaller plane. The A220 now fills that role.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You now rarely see them in commercial services, as they were more
>>>>>>> likely to be used as business jets. I've only flown on
>>>>>>> an A318 once, from Florence to Paris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 10 of them operated by two EU flag carriers.
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A318#Operators
>>>>
>>>>> That article is out of date. It's now down to just seven still in
>>>>> operation, (AF 6, RO 1).
>>>>
>>>> TAROM got rid of 3 318 during current April?
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM#Current_fleet
>>
>>> They're out of service.
>>
>> Great. TAROM would't let passengers know:
>> https://www.tarom.ro/en/despre-noi/tarom-company/fleet/
>>
>> https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240214-ns24318
>> shouldn't be feasible any more...

> Of its four A318s:

> Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying YR-ASD
> (3225):
> https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd

You have convinced me you know more about TAROM than their webmaster.

Regards, ULF

On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 17:07:41 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

>According to Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.+.com>:
>>The longest journey on one train is this one I think:
>><https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G25107/2024-04-22/detailed>
>>
>>Plymouth to Aberdeen, (and return journey too). 720 miles, around 12 hours.
>
>What is the point of Plymouth to Aberdeen or Aberdeen to Penzance?
>
>Surely nobody takes it more than part of the way, and there is at least
>one crew change.

Many take it. I did, then changed platforms at Penzance for the London
sleeper.

According to Ken <ken@birchanger.com>:
>>What is the point of Plymouth to Aberdeen or Aberdeen to Penzance?
>>
>>Surely nobody takes it more than part of the way, and there is at least
>>one crew change.
>
>Many take it. I did, then changed platforms at Penzance for the London
>sleeper.

Sure, but it's not like you were actually going to Penzance. If the
longest train route in the UK ended at, I dunno, St David's, people
would go there instead.

The point about XC running through Birmingham makes sense but I have
to say that as an American, I find the idea that a 14 hour train trip
is very long is kind of cute.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> According to Ken <ken@birchanger.com>:
>>> What is the point of Plymouth to Aberdeen or Aberdeen to Penzance?
>>>
>>> Surely nobody takes it more than part of the way, and there is at least
>>> one crew change.
>>
>> Many take it. I did, then changed platforms at Penzance for the London
>> sleeper.
>
> Sure, but it's not like you were actually going to Penzance. If the
> longest train route in the UK ended at, I dunno, St David's, people
> would go there instead.

I think there a few genuine end-to-end travellers, for example Scottish
fishermen who now work on Cornish boats, or Cornish residents working on
oil platforms. But they're a tiny minority, and not the target market.

>
> The point about XC running through Birmingham makes sense but I have
> to say that as an American, I find the idea that a 14 hour train trip
> is very long is kind of cute.

Many Amtrak trains are probably later than that!

According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>> Sure, but it's not like you were actually going to Penzance. If the
>> longest train route in the UK ended at, I dunno, St David's, people
>> would go there instead.
>
>I think there a few genuine end-to-end travellers, for example Scottish
>fishermen who now work on Cornish boats, or Cornish residents working on
>oil platforms. But they're a tiny minority, and not the target market.

Possibly, but in most cases you can get there faster by changing. The
northbound train leaves Plymouth at 0927, but you can leave an hour
later at 1027, connect at Birmingham and Haymarket, and end up on
the same train. I suppose if you have luggage and it's going to take
all day anyway it might make sense to use the through train.

>> The point about XC running through Birmingham makes sense but I have
>> to say that as an American, I find the idea that a 14 hour train trip
>> is very long is kind of cute.
>
>Many Amtrak trains are probably later than that!

I wouldn't say many, but more than I would like. My last long Amtrak
trip was New York to Atlanta, a leisurely 18 hours in a sleeper. It
got there on time despite being nearly an hour late at some of the
intermediate points.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

John Levine wrote:

> According to Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>> Sure, but it's not like you were actually going to Penzance. If the
>>> longest train route in the UK ended at, I dunno, St David's, people
>>> would go there instead.
>>
>>I think there a few genuine end-to-end travellers, for example Scottish
>>fishermen who now work on Cornish boats, or Cornish residents working on
>>oil platforms. But they're a tiny minority, and not the target market.

> Possibly, but in most cases you can get there faster by changing. The
> northbound train leaves Plymouth at 0927, but you can leave an hour
> later at 1027, connect at Birmingham and Haymarket, and end up on
> the same train. I suppose if you have luggage and it's going to take
> all day anyway it might make sense to use the through train.

>>> The point about XC running through Birmingham makes sense but I have
>>> to say that as an American, I find the idea that a 14 hour train trip
>>> is very long is kind of cute.
>>
>>Many Amtrak trains are probably later than that!

> I wouldn't say many, but more than I would like. My last long Amtrak
> trip was New York to Atlanta, a leisurely 18 hours in a sleeper. It
> got there on time despite being nearly an hour late at some of the
> intermediate points.

It wasn't close to 50 commercial stops, was it?

By the way, there osed to be a Lisbon <-> Porto IRRC
semi-directo overnighter with an old sleeping car.
Cannot find the timetable now but it made many
stops en route. It was still far from 18 or even 14
hours.

Regards, ULF

Am 26.04.2024 um 08:33 schrieb ulf_kutzner:
> John Levine wrote:
>
>> According to Recliner  <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>:
>>>> Sure, but it's not like you were actually going to Penzance. If the
>>>> longest train route in the UK ended at, I dunno, St David's, people
>>>> would go there instead.
>>>
>>> I think there a few genuine end-to-end travellers, for example Scottish
>>> fishermen who now work on Cornish boats, or Cornish residents working on
>>> oil platforms. But they're a tiny minority, and not the target market.
>
>> Possibly, but in most cases you can get there faster by changing. The
>> northbound train leaves Plymouth at 0927, but you can leave an hour
>> later at 1027, connect at Birmingham and Haymarket, and end up on
>> the same train.  I suppose if you have luggage and it's going to take
>> all day anyway it might make sense to use the through train.
>
>>>> The point about XC running through Birmingham makes sense but I have
>>>> to say that as an American, I find the idea that a 14 hour train trip
>>>> is very long is kind of cute.
>>>
>>> Many Amtrak trains are probably later than that!
>
>> I wouldn't say many, but more than I would like. My last long Amtrak
>> trip was New York to Atlanta, a leisurely 18 hours in a sleeper. It
>> got there on time despite being nearly an hour late at some of the
>> intermediate points.
>
> It wasn't close to 50 commercial stops, was it?

Sunset limited seems to have 21 stops in 44 hours, Empire builder 41
stops in 46 hours (and was 6 hours late when I wanted to enter in St
Paul). The AMTRAK "west-of-USA" pass was great some 25 years ago.

Rolf

According to Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>:
>>>> Many Amtrak trains are probably later than that!
>>
>>> I wouldn't say many, but more than I would like. My last long Amtrak
>>> trip was New York to Atlanta, a leisurely 18 hours in a sleeper. It
>>> got there on time despite being nearly an hour late at some of the
>>> intermediate points.
>>
>> It wasn't close to 50 commercial stops, was it?

The Crescent makes 22 stops between New York and Atlanta, and 8 more
before it gets to New Orleans,

>Sunset limited seems to have 21 stops in 44 hours, Empire builder 41
>stops in 46 hours (and was 6 hours late when I wanted to enter in St
>Paul). The AMTRAK "west-of-USA" pass was great some 25 years ago.

Those seem about right since much of the western US is sparsely
settled.

Amtrak has a chronic problem that most of its trains run on tracks
owned by freight railroads. While the railroads are required by
contract to give Amtrak trains scheduling priority, in practice,
maybe. Making things worse, there are single track sections and some
of the freight trains are now so long that they don't fit into the
passing sidings so they have to park the passenger train to let the
oncoming freight pass.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 26/04/2024 00:46, Recliner wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> According to Ken <ken@birchanger.com>:
>>>> What is the point of Plymouth to Aberdeen or Aberdeen to Penzance?
>>>>
>>>> Surely nobody takes it more than part of the way, and there is at least
>>>> one crew change.
>>>
>>> Many take it. I did, then changed platforms at Penzance for the London
>>> sleeper.
>>
>> Sure, but it's not like you were actually going to Penzance. If the
>> longest train route in the UK ended at, I dunno, St David's, people
>> would go there instead.
>
> I think there a few genuine end-to-end travellers, for example Scottish
> fishermen who now work on Cornish boats, or Cornish residents working on
> oil platforms. But they're a tiny minority, and not the target market.

Circa 1990, there was enough demand for Rosyth-Devonport trips that a
sleeper was laid on from Edinburgh (and Glasgow) to Plymouth (where I
think it terminated rather than continuing to Penzance). There won't
have been many intermediate stops and few people will have used them,
though I did once use it to travel from Edinburgh to Exeter and back.

John Levine wrote:

> Making things worse, there are single track sections and some
> of the freight trains are now so long that they don't fit into the
> passing sidings so they have to park the passenger train to let the
> oncoming freight pass.

Same procedure an Beira Alta line in Portugal in the 80s.

Regards, ULF

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:38:11 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:

> Recliner wrote:
>
>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:19:42 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de
>>>>>> (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de
>>>>>>>> (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I regard an A319 as a small plane!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now
>>>>>>>> retired.
>>>>>>>> The only airlines that acquired them were those with large
>>>>>>>> A319/320/321 fleets who also needed a few smaller models,
>>>>>>>> even if these were inefficient to operate, rather than getting
>>>>>>>> some completely different smaller plane. The A220 now fills that
>>>>>>>> role.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You now rarely see them in commercial services, as they were more
>>>>>>>> likely to be used as business jets. I've only flown on an A318
>>>>>>>> once, from Florence to Paris.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10 of them operated by two EU flag carriers.
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A318#Operators
>>>>>
>>>>>> That article is out of date. It's now down to just seven still in
>>>>>> operation, (AF 6, RO 1).
>>>>>
>>>>> TAROM got rid of 3 318 during current April?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM#Current_fleet
>>>
>>>> They're out of service.
>>>
>>> Great. TAROM would't let passengers know:
>>> https://www.tarom.ro/en/despre-noi/tarom-company/fleet/
>>>
>>> https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240214-ns24318 shouldn't be feasible
>>> any more...
>
>> Of its four A318s:
>
>> Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying
>> YR-ASD (3225):
>> https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd
>
> You have convinced me you know more about TAROM than their webmaster.

This is not particularly surprising; how TAROM continues to plod on as a
going concern is a total mystery to everyone. I believe they're still
just-about surviving on Covid bailout loans, but I think they're operating
under a "must be profitable by 2025" ultimatum that they for certain won't
reach. The chances that they even still employ a webmaster are slim.

The 3 'stored' A318s are parked up on the apron and have been since Covid
I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think at least one might have already
given its engines away...

Meanwhile Bucharest is now WizzAir's single largest base (bigger than
Budapest, even.)

What will happen to TAROM when they inevitably do go bust will be
interesting to see. Their international routes will not really be missed
by anyone - there are already multiple-a-day feeders operated by the
respective national carriers to LHR, VIE, WAW, MUC, FRA, IST, DOH, and DXB
which mean that almost any destination is only one usually convenient
change away (the Istanbul feeders are sufficiently well utilised that you
get the slight oddity of Turkish flying three-a-day widebodies (A330s and
A350s) for a 40 minute hop from Buh to Istanbul.)

The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them would be
a *real* problem. I don't know if EU state-aid rules will allow state
subsidy for them as a vital public service or not...

Clank wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:38:11 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:

>> Recliner wrote:
>>
>>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ulf_kutzner <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 13:19:42 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de
>>>>>>> (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:39:19 +0000, Ulf.Kutzner@web.de
>>>>>>>>> (ulf_kutzner) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I regard an A319 as a small plane!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A318 is small but no longer built.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was an uneconomic plane, so only 80 were built, most now
>>>>>>>>> retired.
>>>>>>>>> The only airlines that acquired them were those with large
>>>>>>>>> A319/320/321 fleets who also needed a few smaller models,
>>>>>>>>> even if these were inefficient to operate, rather than getting
>>>>>>>>> some completely different smaller plane. The A220 now fills that
>>>>>>>>> role.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You now rarely see them in commercial services, as they were more
>>>>>>>>> likely to be used as business jets. I've only flown on an A318
>>>>>>>>> once, from Florence to Paris.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 10 of them operated by two EU flag carriers.
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A318#Operators
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That article is out of date. It's now down to just seven still in
>>>>>>> operation, (AF 6, RO 1).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TAROM got rid of 3 318 during current April?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM#Current_fleet
>>>>
>>>>> They're out of service.
>>>>
>>>> Great. TAROM would't let passengers know:
>>>> https://www.tarom.ro/en/despre-noi/tarom-company/fleet/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240214-ns24318 shouldn't be feasible
>>>> any more...
>>
>>> Of its four A318s:
>>
>>> Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying
>>> YR-ASD (3225):
>>> https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd
>>
>> You have convinced me you know more about TAROM than their webmaster.

> This is not particularly surprising; how TAROM continues to plod on as a
> going concern is a total mystery to everyone. I believe they're still
> just-about surviving on Covid bailout loans, but I think they're operating
> under a "must be profitable by 2025" ultimatum that they for certain won't
> reach.

There is extra business due to closed Ukrainian airspace
but not that much aspassenger train services between both
countries have been discontinued.

> The chances that they even still employ a webmaster are slim.

> The 3 'stored' A318s are parked up on the apron and have been since Covid
> I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think at least one might have already
> given its engines away...

> Meanwhile Bucharest is now WizzAir's single largest base (bigger than
> Budapest, even.)

> What will happen to TAROM when they inevitably do go bust will be
> interesting to see. Their international routes will not really be missed
> by anyone - there are already multiple-a-day feeders operated by the
> respective national carriers to LHR, VIE, WAW, MUC, FRA, IST, DOH, and DXB
> which mean that almost any destination is only one usually convenient
> change away (the Istanbul feeders are sufficiently well utilised that you
> get the slight oddity of Turkish flying three-a-day widebodies (A330s and
> A350s) for a 40 minute hop from Buh to Istanbul.)

> The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them would be
> a *real* problem.

And the Chişinău route. Well, there is a train service. The hubs you cited
are not terribly convenient for Bucharest - Chişinău. Maybe IST.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:51:17 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:

> Clank wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:38:11 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:
>
>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>> Of its four A318s:
>>>
>>>> Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying
>>>> YR-ASD (3225):
>>>> https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd
>>>
>>> You have convinced me you know more about TAROM than their webmaster.
>
>> This is not particularly surprising; how TAROM continues to plod on as
>> a going concern is a total mystery to everyone. I believe they're
>> still just-about surviving on Covid bailout loans, but I think they're
>> operating under a "must be profitable by 2025" ultimatum that they for
>> certain won't reach.
>
> There is extra business due to closed Ukrainian airspace but not that
> much aspassenger train services between both countries have been
> discontinued.
>
>> The chances that they even still employ a webmaster are slim.
>
>> The 3 'stored' A318s are parked up on the apron and have been since
>> Covid I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think at least one might have
>> already given its engines away...
>
>> Meanwhile Bucharest is now WizzAir's single largest base (bigger than
>> Budapest, even.)
>
>
>> What will happen to TAROM when they inevitably do go bust will be
>> interesting to see. Their international routes will not really be
>> missed by anyone - there are already multiple-a-day feeders operated by
>> the respective national carriers to LHR, VIE, WAW, MUC, FRA, IST, DOH,
>> and DXB which mean that almost any destination is only one usually
>> convenient change away (the Istanbul feeders are sufficiently well
>> utilised that you get the slight oddity of Turkish flying three-a-day
>> widebodies (A330s and A350s) for a 40 minute hop from Buh to Istanbul.)
>
>> The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them would
>> be a *real* problem.
>
> And the Chişinău route. Well, there is a train service. The hubs you
> cited are not terribly convenient for Bucharest - Chişinău. Maybe IST.

Suggesting that București - Chișinău isn't a domestic route is a political
statement in its own right ;-).

But yes, fair point. I always take the train for Chişinău, mind. Which
gives me an excuse to once again post a link to the greatest ever
Eurovision song that didn't win, and bring things somewhat back on-topic
(railway, if not UK):

https://youtu.be/bGNT5Uh-WKw?feature=shared

Clank wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:51:17 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:

>> Clank wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:38:11 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:
>>
>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Of its four A318s:
>>>>
>>>>> Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying
>>>>> YR-ASD (3225):
>>>>> https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd
>>>>
>>>> You have convinced me you know more about TAROM than their webmaster.
>>
>>> This is not particularly surprising; how TAROM continues to plod on as
>>> a going concern is a total mystery to everyone. I believe they're
>>> still just-about surviving on Covid bailout loans, but I think they're
>>> operating under a "must be profitable by 2025" ultimatum that they for
>>> certain won't reach.
>>
>> There is extra business due to closed Ukrainian airspace but not that
>> much aspassenger train services between both countries have been
>> discontinued.
>>
>>> The chances that they even still employ a webmaster are slim.
>>
>>> The 3 'stored' A318s are parked up on the apron and have been since
>>> Covid I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think at least one might have
>>> already given its engines away...
>>
>>> Meanwhile Bucharest is now WizzAir's single largest base (bigger than
>>> Budapest, even.)
>>
>>
>>> What will happen to TAROM when they inevitably do go bust will be
>>> interesting to see. Their international routes will not really be
>>> missed by anyone - there are already multiple-a-day feeders operated by
>>> the respective national carriers to LHR, VIE, WAW, MUC, FRA, IST, DOH,
>>> and DXB which mean that almost any destination is only one usually
>>> convenient change away (the Istanbul feeders are sufficiently well
>>> utilised that you get the slight oddity of Turkish flying three-a-day
>>> widebodies (A330s and A350s) for a 40 minute hop from Buh to Istanbul.)
>>
>>> The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them would
>>> be a *real* problem.
>>
>> And the Chişinău route. Well, there is a train service. The hubs you
>> cited are not terribly convenient for Bucharest - Chişinău. Maybe IST.

> Suggesting that București - Chișinău isn't a domestic route is a political
> statement in its own right

I will need a passport to use it from end to end.
Even after document checks stop between Budapest
and Bucharest*, they will continue on the way from
Bucharest to Chișinău.

*) Already stopped on air mode if not needed for
check-in purposes.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 14:24:18 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:

> Clank wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:51:17 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:
>
>>> Clank wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:38:11 +0000, ulf_kutzner wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Of its four A318s:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Stored: YR-ASA (2931), YR-ASB (2955) & YR-ASC (3220); still flying
>>>>>> YR-ASD (3225):
>>>>>> https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/yr-asd
>>>>>
>>>>> You have convinced me you know more about TAROM than their
>>>>> webmaster.
>>>
>>>> This is not particularly surprising; how TAROM continues to plod on
>>>> as a going concern is a total mystery to everyone. I believe they're
>>>> still just-about surviving on Covid bailout loans, but I think
>>>> they're operating under a "must be profitable by 2025" ultimatum that
>>>> they for certain won't reach.
>>>
>>> There is extra business due to closed Ukrainian airspace but not that
>>> much aspassenger train services between both countries have been
>>> discontinued.
>>>
>>>> The chances that they even still employ a webmaster are slim.
>>>
>>>> The 3 'stored' A318s are parked up on the apron and have been since
>>>> Covid I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think at least one might have
>>>> already given its engines away...
>>>
>>>> Meanwhile Bucharest is now WizzAir's single largest base (bigger than
>>>> Budapest, even.)
>>>
>>>
>>>> What will happen to TAROM when they inevitably do go bust will be
>>>> interesting to see. Their international routes will not really be
>>>> missed by anyone - there are already multiple-a-day feeders operated
>>>> by the respective national carriers to LHR, VIE, WAW, MUC, FRA, IST,
>>>> DOH, and DXB which mean that almost any destination is only one
>>>> usually convenient change away (the Istanbul feeders are sufficiently
>>>> well utilised that you get the slight oddity of Turkish flying
>>>> three-a-day widebodies (A330s and A350s) for a 40 minute hop from Buh
>>>> to Istanbul.)
>>>
>>>> The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them
>>>> would be a *real* problem.
>>>
>>> And the Chişinău route. Well, there is a train service. The hubs you
>>> cited are not terribly convenient for Bucharest - Chişinău. Maybe IST.
>
>> Suggesting that București - Chișinău isn't a domestic route is a
>> political statement in its own right
>
> I will need a passport to use it from end to end.

Apparently your newsreader strips emoticons...

> Even after document
> checks stop between Budapest and Bucharest*, they will continue on the
> way from Bucharest to Chișinău.
>
> *) Already stopped on air mode if not needed for check-in purposes.

....you'd think having lived here a decade I'd know that, wouldn't you?

Actually, so far I'm pleasantly surprised at how well the post-Schengen
arrangements have worked. I was arriving home on one of the first flights
into Otopeni on the 31st March and fully expected it to be a shitshow, but
the reorganisation of OTP into Schengen and Non-Schengen areas happened
more or less overnight without any drama - no issues with subsequent trips
either. (Of course, it helps that the extension of the terminal 15 years
ago was designed with Schengen in mind, and in many ways it's now finally
being operated 'as intended' after a years-long hiatus, but even so the
potential for a clusterfuck was there and seems to have been avoided.)

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them would be
> a *real* problem. I don't know if EU state-aid rules will allow state
> subsidy for them as a vital public service or not...

I believe they will - something similar happened to Olympic
[Airways|Airlines|Air] in its multi-decade death throes. Olympic was
variously owned or heavily supported by the Greek state, who even owned some
of their A340s for a time (seems like they spent 8 years sitting at ATH and
then two were sold to Iran and are now flying again, one for Mahan and one
for Syrianair).

First Olympic gave up its international routes and Aegean arose in the
private sector to fill the gap. Then, post financial crisis, the carcass of
Olympic was sold to Aegean, who now operate some of the domestic island
routes. Since some of these islands are quite remote, there must be some
kind of public support - but at least the state doesn't own the airline any
more.

Theo

Theo wrote:

> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> The domestic routes though - mostly flown by ATR72s - losing them would be
>> a *real* problem. I don't know if EU state-aid rules will allow state
>> subsidy for them as a vital public service or not...

> I believe they will - something similar happened to Olympic
> [Airways|Airlines|Air] in its multi-decade death throes. Olympic was
> variously owned or heavily supported by the Greek state, who even owned some
> of their A340s for a time (seems like they spent 8 years sitting at ATH and
> then two were sold to Iran and are now flying again, one for Mahan and one
> for Syrianair).

> First Olympic gave up its international routes and Aegean arose in the
> private sector to fill the gap. Then, post financial crisis, the carcass of
> Olympic was sold to Aegean, who now operate some of the domestic island
> routes. Since some of these islands are quite remote, there must be some
> kind of public support - but at least the state doesn't own the airline any
> more.

There used to be some similar services with small planes
in mainland Portugal in 2024, to be back in 2024...

Regards, ULF