My ears were caught by the phrase "lots of maps" - I think the presenter
was talking about the BBC News website.

IMO, all the news outlets make _insufficient_ use of maps and other
visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.

The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
ago could still be having repercussions today, but that show was
amazingly influential - for example, the presentation (and generally
running) of darts is _still_ influenced by one of their sketches, and I
don't think American Express will ever use That Slogan again, either.

If that _isn't_ the reason, then why _don't_ the (TV broadcast) news
media use visual aids more? (And _leave them on screen_ for more than a
few seconds; I'd far rather see a map than the person talking about what
it shows - I can _hear_ them just fine.)

For example (it's just come on which prompts me): can you imagine a TV
weather report _without_ either maps or other visual aids.

(The report [I say _the_ report, as it's the same one I've seen several
times in a very short time] from Ukraine is on again: they'd rather
show, again, the video of the breach, and some ground video [sadly, we
know what people evacuating looks like], than maps. One static map did
appear, for a few seconds.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Lucy Worsley takes tea in Jane Austen's Regency Bath. - TV "Choices" listing,
RT 2017-5-27

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

>The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
>visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
>might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
>of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
>ago could still be having repercussions today,

My mind goes back to The Frost Report, sketch including the
Lord Privy Seal.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVlfvdH7qwY>

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On 07/06/2023 11:05, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> IMO, all the news outlets make_insufficient_ use of maps and other
> visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
> example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
> agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.

How much are they charged for using maps?

Some young kid typing up the report, might well have been told off
previously because the company got a high bill for using a map and he is
probably not familiar with on how to get copyright clearance and
agreements as well not high enough up the food chain to authorise a payment.

It's because arts educated people are not usually map literate. They find maps confusing. As just one example, I have friend who has several degrees and has won industry awards, but he cannot understand maps at all. Even following a walking map in the Lake District is beyond him.

Bill

"wrightsaerials@aol.com" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:21bc9e3c-9327-4c53-8874-05c1db623a9en@googlegroups.com...
> It's because arts educated people are not usually map literate. They find
> maps confusing. As just one example, I have friend who has several degrees
> and has won industry awards, but he cannot understand maps at all. Even
> following a walking map in the Lake District is beyond him.

Some people expect paper maps to turn so the direction they are heading is
always "upwards", and they expect maps to have a red crosshair to show "you
are here" as they follow a route.

In message <u5q0ta$14v7e$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 7 Jun 2023 14:32:27,
MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
>On 07/06/2023 11:05, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> IMO, all the news outlets make_insufficient_ use of maps and other
>> visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
>> example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
>> agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.
>
>
>
>How much are they charged for using maps?
>
>Some young kid typing up the report, might well have been told off
>previously because the company got a high bill for using a map and he
>is probably not familiar with on how to get copyright clearance and
>agreements as well not high enough up the food chain to authorise a
>payment.
>
>
That may well be an aspect of it - and if it is, it's a sad state of
affairs. It surely shouldn't be the reason why maps showing the Ukraine
flooding are absent.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Address the chair!" "There isn't a chair, there's only a rock!" "Well, call
it a chair!" "Why not call it a rock?" (First series, fit the sixth.)

In message <60n08itbj13f790qnukb7j3vg05jivbbkm@4ax.com> at Wed, 7 Jun
2023 11:32:38, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>>The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
>>visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
>>might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
>>of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
>>ago could still be having repercussions today,
>
>My mind goes back to The Frost Report, sketch including the
>Lord Privy Seal.
>
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVlfvdH7qwY>
>
>Chris

Excellent! Thanks. But I'd actually prefer a bit more of that! (Perhaps
not to the extent of the Lord Privy Seal of course!)

I can't find the actual NTNO'CN skit, though I did find one in which the
real Jan and Angela gave scores. (Good sports they were.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Address the chair!" "There isn't a chair, there's only a rock!" "Well, call
it a chair!" "Why not call it a rock?" (First series, fit the sixth.)

In message <u5q665$15jgb$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 7 Jun 2023 16:02:43,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> writes
>"wrightsaerials@aol.com" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
>news:21bc9e3c-9327-4c53-8874-05c1db623a9en@googlegroups.com...
>> It's because arts educated people are not usually map literate. They
>>find maps confusing. As just one example, I have friend who has

We science-educated people need to rebel more. We've given in to them
for too long, for fear of appearing "nerds" (or similar terms from
previous generations). They need to have their fair share of confusion
(to counter our share of frustration).

>>several degrees and has won industry awards, but he cannot understand
>>maps at all. Even following a walking map in the Lake District is
>>beyond him.
>
>Some people expect paper maps to turn so the direction they are heading
>is always "upwards", and they expect maps to have a red crosshair to
>show "you are here" as they follow a route.

Well, obviously _paper_ maps can't do that, but modern e. g. SatNav-type
ones can and do do that. And nothing wrong with it - _I_ prefer it,
given the choice.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Address the chair!" "There isn't a chair, there's only a rock!" "Well, call
it a chair!" "Why not call it a rock?" (First series, fit the sixth.)

On 07/06/2023 11:05, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> My ears were caught by the phrase "lots of maps" - I think the presenter
> was talking about the BBC News website.
>
> IMO, all the news outlets make _insufficient_ use of maps and other
> visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
> example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
> agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.
>
> The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
> visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
> might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
> of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
> ago could still be having repercussions today, but that show was
> amazingly influential - for example, the presentation (and generally
> running) of darts is _still_ influenced by one of their sketches, and I
> don't think American Express will ever use That Slogan again, either.
>
> If that _isn't_ the reason, then why _don't_ the (TV broadcast) news
> media use visual aids more? (And _leave them on screen_ for more than a
> few seconds; I'd far rather see a map than the person talking about what
> it shows - I can _hear_ them just fine.)
>
> For example (it's just come on which prompts me): can you imagine a TV
> weather report _without_ either maps or other visual aids.
>
> (The report [I say _the_ report, as it's the same one I've seen several
> times in a very short time] from Ukraine is on again: they'd rather
> show, again, the video of the breach, and some ground video [sadly, we
> know what people evacuating looks like], than maps. One static map did
> appear, for a few seconds.)

Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
images.

Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...

Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
badly done.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:aaMAu1N5ZFgkFwYM@255soft.uk...
> My ears were caught by the phrase "lots of maps" - I think the presenter
> was talking about the BBC News website.
>
> IMO, all the news outlets make _insufficient_ use of maps and other visual
> aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for example,
> where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and agricultural), but
> also things like graphs and pie charts.
>
> The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
> visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
> might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
> of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years ago
> could still be having repercussions today, but that show was amazingly
> influential - for example, the presentation (and generally running) of
> darts is _still_ influenced by one of their sketches, and I don't think
> American Express will ever use That Slogan again, either.
>
> If that _isn't_ the reason, then why _don't_ the (TV broadcast) news media
> use visual aids more? (And _leave them on screen_ for more than a few
> seconds; I'd far rather see a map than the person talking about what it
> shows - I can _hear_ them just fine.)
>
> For example (it's just come on which prompts me): can you imagine a TV
> weather report _without_ either maps or other visual aids.
>
> (The report [I say _the_ report, as it's the same one I've seen several
> times in a very short time] from Ukraine is on again: they'd rather show,
> again, the video of the breach, and some ground video [sadly, we know what
> people evacuating looks like], than maps. One static map did appear, for a
> few seconds.)
> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
>
> Lucy Worsley takes tea in Jane Austen's Regency Bath. - TV "Choices"
> listing,
> RT 2017-5-27

On 07/06/2023 22:24, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> That may well be an aspect of it - and if it is, it's a sad state of
> affairs. It surely shouldn't be the reason why maps showing the Ukraine
> flooding are absent.

Absent?

I saw some satellite images of the flooding last night on the news?

On 08/06/2023 08:09, MikeS wrote:
> Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
> contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
> channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
> images.
>
> Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...

It is a commen feature of USENET that someone claims a story was not on
the news even though you remember seeing it, usually if you look on the
BBC News website it will also be there.

But the news reports on air and online are changing all the time.

On 08/06/2023 09:03, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
> where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
> up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
> the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
> badly done.

What do you suggest, I presume there are some bulletins with Audio
Description available but difficult to see what else can be done.

In message <u5rur5$1esr5$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 08:09:24,
MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> writes
[]
>Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
>contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
>channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
>images.

I mostly watch BBC, sometimes Sky. So far, _I_ have seen very little/few
maps on the dam story - and when there is one, it's on screen for a very
short time. There is also almost never a cursor used (or in days past, a
person pointing), to show what/where was being talked about.
>
>Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...
>
I very occasionally try them - usually when the other two are stuck in
monostoryism, such as (in recent days) the prince-in-court story. (To
me, it's unforgivable that that could be "today's main story" [it was
actually referred to as such, more than once], when the dam story was
happening. I concede there is _some_ interest in it, but really?) I
agree GB News aren't among the best news outlets! (Though - like Jeremy
Clarkson - they have an effect by influencing others, and offending
people who deserve to be offended.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Do ministers do more than lay people?

In message <u5s332$1f9pu$2@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 09:21:56,
MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
>On 08/06/2023 08:09, MikeS wrote:
>> Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
>> contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
>> channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
>> images.
>> Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...
>
>
>
>It is a commen feature of USENET that someone claims a story was not on
>the news even though you remember seeing it, usually if you look on the
>BBC News website it will also be there.

Often _only_ there. I accept, of course, that there is limited time on
the news channel, but when that repeats endlessly only one
aspect/story/whatever (with exhortations to view the website), it gets a
bit wearing.
>
>But the news reports on air and online are changing all the time.
>
We'll have to agree to disagree on the extent to which that is true.
>
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Do ministers do more than lay people?

In message <u5s38a$1f9pu$3@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 09:24:44,
MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
>On 08/06/2023 09:03, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
>> where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
>> up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
>> the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
>> badly done.
>
>
>What do you suggest, I presume there are some bulletins with Audio
>Description available but difficult to see what else can be done.

Although fully sighted (other than 3D), I tend to have audio description
on all the time - I have blind friends so I'm interested in the
provision, and also I find it allows me to do other things more.

I think Brian was not talking about news specifically - "apps and web
sites" - and I agree with him wholeheartedly: the _attitude_, not just
to making provision for the visually impaired but when something doesn't
work for another reason, is often uncaring/rude. (I recently had some
trouble with communications from my dental practice, and was clearly up
against a brick wall if I tried to suggest change.) But as for news:
yes, one can see that the provision of AD for up-to-the-minute reports
involves some challenges. Sometimes they - BBC certainly, not sure about
the others - do a longer piece, such as a half-hour prog. on life in
Afghanistan or other area, and those _are_ AD - and it's done well, IMO.
(For example, when someone speaks their own language, and what they are
saying is shown in English on-screen, the AD speaks it.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Do ministers do more than lay people?

On 08/06/2023 11:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I mostly watch BBC, sometimes Sky. So far,_I_ have seen very little/few
> maps on the dam story - and when there is one, it's on screen for a very
> short time. There is also almost never a cursor used (or in days past, a
> person pointing), to show what/where was being talked about.

It is probably because the situation is very fluid (excuse pun), they
could spend time making up a map then find thinga have changed and they
have to start again.

Easier to show a satellite image which shows it better.

In message <u5sakj$1g2t4$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 11:30:45,
MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
>On 08/06/2023 11:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> I mostly watch BBC, sometimes Sky. So far,_I_ have seen very little/few
>> maps on the dam story - and when there is one, it's on screen for a very
>> short time. There is also almost never a cursor used (or in days past, a
>> person pointing), to show what/where was being talked about.
>
>
>It is probably because the situation is very fluid (excuse pun), they

(-:

>could spend time making up a map then find thinga have changed and they
>have to start again.

Chicken-and-egg: had they been in the practice of using them more,
there'd be less time needed "making up a map".
>
>Easier to show a satellite image which shows it better.
>
>
Maybe I've just not happened to see the one(s) you have: I haven't seen
a satellite image which shows the overall picture/effect - I'm not sure
it'd necessarily be visible on one showing the whole affected area. (Now
I think of it, I _have_ seen a couple of before-and-after ones, but
those are of quite a small specific area, not the area affected as a
whole.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... unlike other legal systems the common law is permissive. We can do what we
like, unless it is specifically prohibited by law. We are not as rule-bound
and codified as other legal systems. - Helena Kennedy QC (Radio Times 14-20
July 2012).

On 08/06/2023 09:03, Brian Gaff wrote:

> Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
> where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
> up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
> the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
> badly done.

Well some things are inherently visual, but one thing that could be
improved for blind people is chatbots, including the emotional/social
kind like Replika (featured on a recent edition of ITV Tonight). These
are fundamentally text based and any visuals are just an icing on the
cake. I'm sure you would like to have an AI friend to discuss your life
with. Some of them even allow ERP (erotic role-play).

--
Max Demian

In message <u5su6t$1i6h8$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 17:04:47,
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> writes
[]
>Well some things are inherently visual, but one thing that could be
>improved for blind people is chatbots, including the emotional/social
>kind like Replika (featured on a recent edition of ITV Tonight). These
>are fundamentally text based and any visuals are just an icing on the
>cake. I'm sure you would like to have an AI friend to discuss your life
>with. Some of them even allow ERP (erotic role-play).
>
Gives a whole new meaning to 1 megawatt ERP!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I admire him for the constancy of his curiosity, his effortless sense of
authority and his ability to deliver good science without gimmicks.
- Michael Palin on Sir David Attenborough, RT 2016/5/7-13

On our council web sit they also have a part for blind people which allows
post codes to be entered in to identify, for example, a fly tipped heap of
junk.

It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:u5s38a$1f9pu$3@dont-email.me...
> On 08/06/2023 09:03, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
>> where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a
>> close
>> up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there,
>> yet
>> the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
>> badly done.
>
>
> What do you suggest, I presume there are some bulletins with Audio
> Description available but difficult to see what else can be done.

In message <u5upa7$1s660$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 9 Jun 2023 09:53:23,
Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
>On our council web sit they also have a part for blind people which allows
>post codes to be entered in to identify, for example, a fly tipped heap of
>junk.

In some ways, I'm pleased to hear it. In other ways, I'm slightly
depressed that they have "a part for blind people", rather than
designing the _whole_ site to be accessible: there is little that
actually _requires_ - or is improved by - being _not_ accessible. (Maps
are actually one of the few exceptions, in that they _do_ aid the
sighted!) Having "a part for blind people" also makes it seen as an
extra expense; it should remain in design mind at all times. Rather
similar to disabled access to buildings: it's a lot cheaper (sometimes
no extra expense) to design, rather than retrofit.
>
> It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
>sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
>the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
>three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.
> Brian
>
Indeed. Covers the whole world, apparently. (Though you do need mobile
coverage - perhaps not to generate the three words as I think those are
based on GPS, but in order to actually communicate them to anyone!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Lebanon is smaller than Wales but they have taken on one million refugees and
they don't talk about it as much as we seem to here in this country.
- Hassan Akkad, RT 2017/10/28-2017/11/3

On 09/06/2023 09:53, Brian Gaff wrote:
> It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
> sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
> the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
> three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.

Did you see (on The One Show I think) the sort of Braille-like device so
a blind person can follow the movement of the ball in a game of football.

On 09/06/2023 10:47, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> Indeed. Covers the whole world, apparently. (Though you do need mobile
> coverage - perhaps not to generate the three words as I think those are
> based on GPS, but in order to actually communicate them to anyone!)

But there are ambiguities even in small coverage areas like the UK.
Emergency service seem less keen on it now because of that and other
factors. It is of course a commercial system and only free with
limitations.

In message <u5vfr1$1udrl$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 9 Jun 2023 16:17:52,
MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
>On 09/06/2023 09:53, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
>> sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
>> the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
>> three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.
>
>
>Did you see (on The One Show I think) the sort of Braille-like device
>so a blind person can follow the movement of the ball in a game of
>football.

"Back to square one ..."
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

in the kingdom of the bland, the one idea is king. - Rory Bremner (on
politics), RT 2015/1/31-2/6