https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article
about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the sentence
that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the letters W, K, N,
and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee pulling the US's
plonker with that allocation of letters?

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article
> about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the
> sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the letters
> W, K, N, and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee
> pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_call_sign

" In the absence of international standards, early transmitters constructed
after Guglielmo Marconi's first transatlantic message in 1901 were issued
arbitrary two-letter calls by radio companies, alone or later preceded by a
one-letter company identifier. These mimicked an earlier railroad telegraph
convention where short, two-letter identifiers served as Morse code
abbreviations to denote the various individual stations on the line (for
instance, AX could represent Halifax). "N" and two letters would identify
U.S. Navy; "M" and two letters would be a Marconi station."

(this is why UK radio amateurs can today get an 'M' callsign, because that
was originally Marconi, a British company)

"United States merchant vessels are given call signs beginning with the
letters "W" or "K" while U.S. naval ships are assigned call signs beginning
with "N""

So N = Navy. Then:

https://earlyradiohistory.us/recap.htm

"The authority to assign radio call letters to ships, which Chamberlain
claimed under the July 5, 1884 act, did not include land stations. (At this
time the U.S. government had not yet started licencing radio transmitters).
The date of the changeover to the new three-letter radio calls wasn't stated
in the 1911 annual report, however, an October 25, 1912 General Letter from
the Department of Commerce and Labor later referred to "the call letters
assigned to American ship stations on July 1, 1912, by the Bureau of
Navigation". (U.S. merchant ships were still using their old two-letter
calls according to the January 1, 1912 edition of the Navy's Wireless
Telegraph Stations of the World, but the new three-letter calls are listed
in the radio call letter list in the June 30, 1912 edition of the Annual
List of the Merchant Vessels of the United States, with K calls assigned to
ships on the "Atlantic and Gulf Coasts", and W calls going to the "Pacific
Coast" vessels.) In many cases, all that was done was to add a K or W in
front of the ship's original two-letter call -- see 1911-1913 Ship Callsign
Comparison Chart for more details. I don't know why K and W were chosen for
the initial letters, or why the Bureau thought it necessary to split the
assignments into two geographic groups -- they had not done anything similar
with the visual signal letters. It is possible that W stood for "west", but
that is pure speculation on my part.

These new three-letter K and W ship radio calls were assigned just prior to
the signing of the 1912 London International Radiotelegraphic Convention. A
note appearing with the June 30, 1912 lists stated that "Radio call letters
of American vessels on the Atlantic and Gulf in the K series are subject to
revision under international agreement". The modification that was reported
shortly after the end of the London Convention was that, although all
initial N and W callsigns were assigned to the U.S., only calls from KD
through KZ were included in the U.S. allocation, so the U.S. ships that
had been assigned KA- and KC- calls in the June 30, 1912 list had to be
issued new ones -- see 1911-1913 Ship Callsign Comparison Chart for more
details.

Then, with the passage of the Radio Act of 1912, the Bureau of Navigation
was assigned the additional responsibility of licencing both ship and land
radio stations, so it now also controlled call letter assignments for land
stations, which had also traditionally used two-letter calls. And for
commercial land stations the Bureau adopted the opposite policy from what it
used for ship stations, i.e. land stations were issued three-letter K calls
in the west and W in the east. In many cases, the process again consisted
of adding a K or W in front of the station's original two-letter call, e.g.
HA at Cape Hatteras, North Carolina became WHA, GO in Chicago, Illinois
became WGO, and PH in San Francisco, California became KPH. And some land
stations which already had three-letter calls just had their initial letter
changed to meet the new international standard, e.g. MCC in South
Wellfleet, Massachusetts became WCC. (For more information on the initial
land station call letter assignments, see the July 1, 1913 issue of Radio
Stations of the United States.)

(NOTE: A May 9, 1913 Commerce Department publication, Radio Call Letters,
stated that, like ship stations, land stations would get W calls in the west
and K in the east. The identical wording appears in the July 1, 1913 issue
of Radio Stations of the United States, which was the first official station
list issued after the U.S. began licencing stations. However, according to
the station lists appearing in the latter publication, it is clear that the
commercial land stations were actually being issued calls in the opposite
pattern, i.e. K in the west and W in the east. And, beginning with the
July 1, 1914 edition of Radio Stations of the United States, the wording was
changed to reflect the correct pattern for land stations.) "

So it could be that W=west coast of the US, and K=east coast, but E was
already taken by Spain. KA to KC was taken by Germany, so the US got KD to
KZ until 1927 when they got the rest.

Since the US already had N and W, maybe the second half of K was all that
was left? The Great Powers got at least one whole letter each, and the
other countries were fighting over the scraps?

Theo

"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Khn*V9Ijz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article
>> about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the
>> sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the
>> letters
>> W, K, N, and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee
>> pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_call_sign
> https://earlyradiohistory.us/recap.htm

[snip interesting explanation]

So it was probably pure chance that the US's letters could be rearranged to
spell WANK ;-)

How is it that the UK doesn't have to name all its stations beginning with M
or one of the other UK letters? Was that due to the power of Reith and the
BBC? And had the concept of using standard initial letters died out by the
time other UK stations (ILR) started in the 1960s?

On 25/06/2023 23:43, NY wrote:
> How is it that the UK doesn't have to name all its stations beginning with M
> or one of the other UK letters? Was that due to the power of Reith and the
> BBC? And had the concept of using standard initial letters died out by the
> time other UK stations (ILR) started in the 1960s?

There are a lot of callsigns that are not normally seen.

Pre AIRWAVE all emergency services had callsigns but they were usually
shortened and only the last couple of letters were used normally.

You will often hear a vessel using their callsign as well as the name of
the vessel.

YEOMAN BONTRUP
IMO: 8912297
Callsign: C6JQ9
MMSI: 308918000 [BS]

On 26/06/2023 00:00, MB wrote:
> On 25/06/2023 23:43, NY wrote:
>> How is it that the UK doesn't have to name all its stations beginning
>> with M
>> or one of the other UK letters? Was that due to the power of Reith and
>> the
>> BBC? And had the concept of using standard initial letters died out by
>> the
>> time other UK stations (ILR) started in the 1960s?
>
>
> There are a lot of callsigns that are not normally seen.

So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is used
in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign as
well?

I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
communications.

NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
> used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
> broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is used
> in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
> friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign as
> well?
>
> I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
> public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
> various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
> communications.

Morse stations needed a letter callsign because of the longwindedness of the
medium - the message:

CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD DE MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY POSITION 41.44 N 50.24 W

would not have been as effective if it had to spell out 'RMS Titanic'
instead of 'MGY'.

I'm guessing the requirement for a broadcast audio station to have a
callsign and mention it on-air was dropped by one of the later International
Radiotelegraphic Conventions, since it wasn't needed as it was for Morse,
and for whatever reason that practice continued in the US.

The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK callsign
prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

Theo

In article <Khn*rUNjz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> > So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
> > used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
> > broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is
> > used in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
> > friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign
> > as well?
> >
> > I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
> > public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
> > various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
> > communications.

> Morse stations needed a letter callsign because of the longwindedness of
> the medium - the message:

> CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD DE MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY POSITION 41.44 N 50.24
> W

> would not have been as effective if it had to spell out 'RMS Titanic'
> instead of 'MGY'.

> I'm guessing the requirement for a broadcast audio station to have a
> callsign and mention it on-air was dropped by one of the later
> International Radiotelegraphic Conventions, since it wasn't needed as it
> was for Morse, and for whatever reason that practice continued in the US.

> The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK
> callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

2LO was only the London transmitter, There were also: 2ZY - Manchester; 5IT
- Birmingham; and quite a few others including 5XX at Daventry.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In message <5ababdab1acharles@candehope.me.uk> at Mon, 26 Jun 2023
20:45:03, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>In article <Khn*rUNjz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> > So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
>> > used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
>> > broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is
>> > used in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
>> > friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign
>> > as well?
>> >
>> > I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
>> > public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
>> > various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
>> > communications.
>
>> Morse stations needed a letter callsign because of the longwindedness of
>> the medium - the message:
>
>> CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD DE MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY POSITION 41.44 N 50.24
>> W
>
>> would not have been as effective if it had to spell out 'RMS Titanic'
>> instead of 'MGY'.
>
>> I'm guessing the requirement for a broadcast audio station to have a
>> callsign and mention it on-air was dropped by one of the later
>> International Radiotelegraphic Conventions, since it wasn't needed as it
>> was for Morse, and for whatever reason that practice continued in the US.
>
>> The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK
>> callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.
>
>2LO was only the London transmitter, There were also: 2ZY - Manchester; 5IT
>- Birmingham; and quite a few others including 5XX at Daventry.
>
2MT from Marconi's wireless telegraph works in Chelmsford (or the nearby
Writtle, "a long low hut full of long low people").

I thought the G (and variants) was _added_, when technology improved
such that stations with the same callsign from different countries could
hear each other and were confusable. Though I don't know if that only
applied to amateurs.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

She looked like the kind of girl who was poured into her clothes and forgot to
say when - Wodehouse

On 26/06/2023 21:00, Theo wrote:
> The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK callsign
> prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

I had a look in Pawley but can't see any mention of callsigns being dropped.

Liverpool Daily Post - Monday 10 March 1930

NEW WIRELESS SCHEME STARTS
First Alternative Programmes Radiated
Millions listeners provided with alternative wireless programmes
yesterday under the new policy of the BBC The first part of the scheme
which will ultimately give this country five high-power regional
stations each operating on wave-lengths came into being almost
unostentatiously.
In the middle of Bach cantata sent out on the National Programme the
London regional transmitters started up with a military concert. From
then onwards except for two items common to both wave-lengths contrasted
programmes were radiated.
All the familiar call-signs 2LO 5GB 5XX have gone. There is a National
Programme, a London Regional Station and a Midland Regional Station.

New Northern Station.
Not until 1932 will the entire regional scheme be in operation. The
Northern Regional Station is now being built at ....

In article <u7e3un$1b9v0$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 21:00, Theo wrote:
> > The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK
> > callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

> I had a look in Pawley but can't see any mention of callsigns being
> dropped.

Nor could I.

[Snip]

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

I have wondered this before. I don't ever recall anyone owning up.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk

Blind user, so no pictures please!

This document should only be read by those persons for whom Paranoia is
normal
and its contents are probably boring and confusing. If you receive this
e-Mail
message in error, do not notify the sender immediately, instead, print it
out and make
paper animals out of it. As the rest of this disclaimer is totally
incomprehensible, we have not bothered to attach it.
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:u7a60i$j1o7$1@dont-email.me...
> https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article
> about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the
> sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the letters
> W, K, N, and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee
> pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

[...]
>" five high-power regional
> stations each operating on wave-lengths "

What did they operate on before that?

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 28/06/2023 09:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> What did they operate on before that?

Pawley can be downloaded here, many tables listing BBC transmitters at
different dates.

https://www.bbceng.info/Books/books.htm

In message <u7gshc$1nn61$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:55:08,
MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
>On 28/06/2023 09:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> What did they operate on before that?
>
>
>
>Pawley can be downloaded here, many tables listing BBC transmitters at
>different dates.
>
>https://www.bbceng.info/Books/books.htm
>
>
Thanks for that page: lots of nice documents as well as Pawley!
Bookmarked.

I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Try to tell me to watch something because it's brilliant and everyone says so
and therefore I will love it, too, and you lose me for ever.
- Alison Graham, RT 2016/2/6-12

In article <X1UzlvnHyAnkFwTy@255soft.uk>,
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <u7gshc$1nn61$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:55:08,
> MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
> >On 28/06/2023 09:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> >> What did they operate on before that?
> >
> >
> >
> >Pawley can be downloaded here, many tables listing BBC transmitters at
> >different dates.
> >
> >https://www.bbceng.info/Books/books.htm
> >
> >
> Thanks for that page: lots of nice documents as well as Pawley!
> Bookmarked.

> I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
> looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
> enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
> not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]

It's run by those that used to work there. The present BBC doesn't believe
in engineers.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 28/06/2023 12:00, charles wrote:
> In article <X1UzlvnHyAnkFwTy@255soft.uk>,
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>> I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
>> looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
>> enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
>> not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]
>
> It's run by those that used to work there. The present BBC doesn't believe
> in engineers.
>

There are some; locked in a lab, don't see daylight, types.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects

--
Adrian C

In message <kg2j0fF2ufcU4@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 28 Jun 2023
12:14:23, Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> writes
>On 28/06/2023 12:00, charles wrote:
>> In article <X1UzlvnHyAnkFwTy@255soft.uk>,
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>>> I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
>>> looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
>>> enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
>>> not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]
>> It's run by those that used to work there. The present BBC doesn't
>>believe
>> in engineers.
>>
>
>There are some; locked in a lab, don't see daylight, types.

(It was ever so, but at least they used to be wheeled out occasionally.
Much less so now. Mustn't frighten the public [with facts].)
>
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects
>
Thanks (I also tried it without the projects on the end); bookmarked, I
still bet there are few links to it from the rest of the website though.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anybody who thinks there can be unlimited growth in a static, limited
environment, is either mad or an economist. - Sir David Attenborough, in
Radio Times 10-16 November 2012

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

[...]
> There are a lot of callsigns that are not normally seen.
>
> Pre AIRWAVE all emergency services had callsigns but they were usually
> shortened and only the last couple of letters were used normally.
[...]

"BD to Zed Victor One"

--
^Ï^. – Sn!pe – <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 16:10:11 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:

<snip>

>"BD to Zed Victor One"

M2BD = Lancashire Constabulary, Billinge

https://www.pmrconversion.info/POLICE/CALLSIGN.html

--

Brian

Beware the spamtrap by Kubrick.

On 15/07/2023 16:10, Sn!pe wrote:
> "BD to Zed Victor One"

I think the callsign was actually M2BD but they were always shortened.

On Sun 16/07/2023 20:10, MB wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 16:10, Sn!pe wrote:
>> "BD to Zed Victor One"
>
> I think the callsign was actually M2BD but they were always shortened.
>
>

No, all Police and Fire controls were M2 prefix so they got truncated to
save time. M, alongside G, was allocated (after WWII?) as identity
letters for the UK.

What is more one of the the last two letters showed which HO depot
maintained that force, so BD meant Billinge (near Wigan), NA
(Derbyshire) meant Nottingham, and XF was Kippax (Leeds) etc.

Technically the M2 part of the callsign is still in place, so when radio
amateur callsigns started using M as the first letter, e.g. M0, M3, M7
etc, they could not and still do not use M2.

In message <u92ohp$131t5$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 17 Jul 2023 07:53:45,
Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> writes
>On Sun 16/07/2023 20:10, MB wrote:
>> On 15/07/2023 16:10, Sn!pe wrote:
>>> "BD to Zed Victor One"
>> I think the callsign was actually M2BD but they were always
>>shortened.
>>
>
>No, all Police and Fire controls were M2 prefix so they got truncated
>to save time. M, alongside G, was allocated (after WWII?) as identity
>letters for the UK.
>
>What is more one of the the last two letters showed which HO depot
>maintained that force, so BD meant Billinge (near Wigan), NA
>(Derbyshire) meant Nottingham, and XF was Kippax (Leeds) etc.
>
>Technically the M2 part of the callsign is still in place, so when
>radio amateur callsigns started using M as the first letter, e.g. M0,
>M3, M7 etc, they could not and still do not use M2.

Is some similar reason why there were never (AFAICR) G1 amateurs?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Paxman, the man who has never used one sneer when three would do
- Elizabeth Day, RT 2015/5/2-8

On 17/07/2023 07:53, Woody wrote:
> No, all Police and Fire controls were M2 prefix so they got truncated to
> save time. M, alongside G, was allocated (after WWII?) as identity
> letters for the UK.

Might be more here.

https://www.dtels.org/index.html