On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 07:12:44 +0000 :
>
>>> I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not
>>> like. Especially given they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
>>> by others.
>>>
>>> What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
>>> default messenger (just as Android only allows one default
>>> messenger)?
>>
>> When I set Google Messages as my default messenger, it supports
>> multiple types of message (RCS/SMS/MMS ... I just happen to mostly
>> ignore the latter)
>>
>>> Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS
>>> chats? If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
>>> improvement?
>>
>> I doubt they'll do that, at present an apple user doesn't have to
>> choose a different app in order to send an SMS to me, their phone
>> realises I'm not an imessage user, so it falls back to SMS. Next
>> year I expect it will have two levels of fallback, firstly to RCS,
>> and secondly to SMS, if someone else chooses to pay to send me an MMS
>> I don't mind, but they'll have no need to pay once apple has RCS.
>
> What some foresee is what's already been predicted in the news that
> Apple will implement an unworkable solution that follows the letter of
> the law.

There is no RCS law. And Apple is on record saying RCS will be supported
in the Apple Messages app. You're chock full of shit.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2023-11-17, Patrick <patrick@oleary.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 08:49:54 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>> RCS is still rooted in the phone system as the common communications
>> element whereas iMessage (and other iCloud services) are internet
>> based services.
>>
>> So if you're on an iPhone or Mac (or other Apple device) and want to
>> send a text to an Android user, if the phone number isn't in
>> someone's iCloud account it is assumed to be non-Apple and the call
>> is routed as any SMS/MMS (and soon RCS) message: via the phone system
>> - so a Mac would use the user's iPhone to send the message.[1]
>>
>> All this is transparent to the user as long as he has at least one
>> phone device and account that can do SMS/MMS/RCS. Not sure if Apple
>> could stop a 3rd party app from doing RCS - however that might not
>> support the case of a user doing the RCS from a separate device (a
>> Mac).
>>
>> Expect the Apple eco-system to continue to expand in capability and
>> features all over, including in iMessage while also adding RCS.
>>
>> [1] Apple do this so well that: Once upon a time I left my iPhone at
>> work (30 km away). From my Mac I could still send SMS/MMS to Android
>> users. The Mac would delegate to my iPhone and conduct the exchange
>> via the internet. (Won't do voice calls, alas).
>
> You say this as if it's a big deal

No, *you* are on record "predicting" it won't work like this, which is
why he explained it.

> You're all excited about logging into a server farm.

No, *you* are all excited about Apple supporting RCS, and you're trying
your hardest to shit on it in some feeble way. It's not working. You've
made a fool of yourself with this nym, Arlen. Time to retire it. 😉

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

In comp.mobile.android Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> Idiot. Apple will implement RCS if at all in the manner and quality we
> are used from Apple. Google plays no role in this picture:
>
> Finally, Apple says it will work with the GSMA members on ways to
> further improve the RCS protocol. This particularly includes improving
> the security and encryption of RCS messages. Apple also told 9to5Mac
> that it will not use any sort of proprietary end-to-end encryption on
> top of RCS. Its focus is on improving the RCS standard itself.
>
> For comparison’s sake, Google’s implementation of end-to-end encryption
> is part of the Messages app on Android rather than the RCS spec itself.

The politics here is that the GSMA may not be in favour of E2EE, because
governments (and hence telcos) want their interception powers. Google have
gone it alone in terms of designing an E2EE extension for RCS (based on
Signal).

It may be that with Google and Apple both in favour of it, suddenly that
will apply enough pressure on the GSMA to ratify the E2EE spec, perhaps as
an 'option'. Then Apple and Google both happen to implement the 'optional'
E2EE. Or the governments may apply pressure on the GSMA not to do so.

We'll see.

Theo

Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :

>> Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
>> home-grown messenger app.
>
> I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
> supported in the Apple Messages app.

Did you read the opening post?
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.

> Go ahead and provide your source for this, please.

Maybe next time read the cites people provided before saying that Apple
didn't say that RCS will exist separate from iMessage.

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023
Message-ID: <uj5r4n$2g4e$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>

"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage
when available."

Later on the article reiterates "This is not Apple opening up iMessage to
other platforms. Instead, it's the company adopting RCS separately from
iMessage."

Let me give you a bit of advice. When you challenge someone to repeat what
was already cited you should at least click on the URLs already cited.

I shouldn't have to repeat to you what you didn't bother to read.

> Also, that's not a "downside to iMessage".

You didn't understand what I said since Apple said RCS would exist
separately from iMessage. The question is what does "exist" mean and what
does "separately" mean to Apple.

>> As of now, there can only be one messenger app
>
> That's simply not true.

This is my mistake for not being crystal clear because many people are like
you are in that they don't realize there can only be one default text
messenger on any phone, whether that's an iPhone or an Android phone.

> There are many messaging apps available for
> iPhones, including WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of
> others. Whoever fed you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they are
> talking about and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.

See above. You need to learn how default text messaging works.

On the Android phones you can switch to change to a different default text
messenger but it takes a while for all the messages to switch over so it's
not a process people do more than once or twice in the device lifetime.

>> so a potential downside is Apple may need to open up their walled
>> garden to multiple messenger apps.
>
> There have been multiple alternative messaging apps available for iPhone
> for decades. That's not a downside for iMessage.

You don't understand the default text messenger concept probably because
you've never used any other default text messenger than the iMessage app.

Even on Android where you can change your one default text messenger to
another app, it takes a while to swap over all the existing messages so
people don't do it all that often in the lifetime of the device.

It's like walking on coals. You can do it. But it hurts.

Anyway, you seem to be bent on claiming Apple didn't say that RCS will
exist separate from iMessage so you can go on thinking that if you want.

Apple has been asked to clarify in every one of the twenty or thirty
articles I've read on the topic so we're not going to know for a while
because every article said Apple will not clarify any further than that.

We can only guess until Apple clarifies what "RCS exists" means to Apple.

Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:43:37 GMT :

>> I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like.
>
> You're saying that based on your gross ignorance on the subject.

You didn't read any of the cites and then you say that I am who is ignorant
that every cite says Apple said RCS will exist separately from iMessage?

>> they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
>
> You have no evidence this isn't being done willingly.

You have to be the only person in the universe who would say such a thing.

Everyone but you knows what Tim Cook's response was "buy your mother an
iPhone" and everyone but you is aware Apple had no intention of supporting
RCS until they saw they were going to be forced against their will.

>> What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
>> default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
>
> That's exactly what is happening. Apple will be adding RCS support to
> the default Apple Messages app, which is what most people in the United
> States use anyway.

You seem to know so much about the implementation that nobody else but
Apple knows, and yet you don't know what Apple said in all the cites.

>> Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
>
> Nppe. See above.

You haven't read a single cite and yet you know all about it. Amazing.
>> If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
>> improvement?
>
> People outside of the United States who already use alternative
> messaging apps and services will continue to do so. Those people don't
> typically use SMS anyway, so RCS won't be used by them. And for the few
> that do use SMS, they are already used to those messages appearing in
> Apple's Messages app. Also, when a message comes in it's displayed in a
> notification on the screen regardless of what app is running at the
> time, so tapping it opens whatever app it's from. This "concern" of
> yours is a big nothing burger.

You don't understand anything about text messaging if you think it's the
same thing as WhatsApp and yet you claim to know everything about Apple's
implementation, even as all the cites said Apple won't clarify what they
mean by RCS existing separately from iMessages.

Here's just one take on what "RCS existing separately from iMessage" means.
"Apple could have simply made iMessage compatible with RCS, which would
have ended this drama once and for all. But instead, RCS will work
alongside SMS and MMS in the iPhone's Messages app as an option for users
who text with non-iPhone users."
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/293199/hell-freezes-over-apple-to-support-rcs-on-iphone

On 2023-11-17 17:36, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 04:01:48 GMT :

....

>> As of now, there can only be one messenger app
>
> That's simply not true. There are many messaging apps available for
> iPhones, including WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of
> others. Whoever fed you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they are
> talking about and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.🤣

In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 13:43:53 +0100 :

>> What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
>> default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
>
> There is another item to consider: The EU will probably force all
> message system to coordinate somehow and send/receive messages from/to
> other message systems, somehow.

Thank you for bringing up that additional item to consider which is that
this RCS letter of the law may affect not only Apple but Meta & others too.
> This includes the Apple imessage app. It will probably be forced to
> interact with WhatsApp, for instance.

Based on the twenty or thirty articles I've read on this, it seems Apple
may have decided not to explain yet how it will "interact" with other
messengers - nor even how it will interact with iMessage other than every
cite saying that Apple said RCS will "exist separately" from iMessage.

You can be sure Apple executives know what "exists separately" means
(even if the rest of us will just have to wait until iOS 18 to find out).

> Will Apple restrict this to EU only?

All we know is Apple said in every article I could find that RCS will
"exist separately" from iMessage. They didn't say anything about the EU.

What does it mean to "exist separately" & still follow the EU guidelines?

Carlos E. R. wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:51:14 +0100 :

> In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.

Thank you for helping him better understand the concept of a default text
messenger, because multiple times he equated the concept with the likes of
WhatsApp (as did some of the others) which means they don't understand
the concept (probably because they've only used one text messenger).

On Android, you can switch the default text messenger but it's not like
switching the default browser is in that all the text messages and group
chats and scheduled messages and pinned conversations and private
conversations (the list of options is a long one) has to be transferred
over from the old default text messenger to the new default text messenger.

It's like walking over glowing coals. You can do it. But a misstep hurts.
If you turn back at the end, you have to walk over those same coals again.

I've done it only a few times in many years of owning Android phones.
Usually it's easiest done at the very beginning when you have a new phone.

I think those who are repeatedly but erroneously equating the default text
messenger with any old Internet messaging app don't understand the concept.

On 2023-11-17 19:01, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 13:43:53 +0100 :
>
>>> What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
>>> default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
>>
>> There is another item to consider: The EU will probably force all
>> message system to coordinate somehow and send/receive messages from/to
>> other message systems, somehow.
>
> Thank you for bringing up that additional item to consider which is that
> this RCS letter of the law may affect not only Apple but Meta & others too.
>
>> This includes the Apple imessage app. It will probably be forced to
>> interact with WhatsApp, for instance.
>
> Based on the twenty or thirty articles I've read on this, it seems Apple
> may have decided not to explain yet how it will "interact" with other
> messengers - nor even how it will interact with iMessage other than every
> cite saying that Apple said RCS will "exist separately" from iMessage.
>
> You can be sure Apple executives know what "exists separately" means
> (even if the rest of us will just have to wait until iOS 18 to find out).

Maybe they will wait to see what the EU will say, and then decide what
to actually do. That way thy avoid saying something and then having to
double back depending on what the EU says. It is what I would do, but
hey, I do not work for Apple :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-17 11:00, Patrick wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 08:49:54 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>> RCS is still rooted in the phone system as the common communications
>> element whereas iMessage (and other iCloud services) are internet
>> based services.
>>
>> So if you're on an iPhone or Mac (or other Apple device) and want to
>> send a text to an Android user, if the phone number isn't in someone's
>> iCloud account it is assumed to be non-Apple and the call is routed as
>> any SMS/MMS (and soon RCS) message: via the phone system - so a Mac
>> would use the user's iPhone to send the message.[1]
>>
>> All this is transparent to the user as long as he has at least one
>> phone device and account that can do SMS/MMS/RCS.  Not sure if Apple
>> could stop a 3rd party app from doing RCS - however that might not
>> support the case of a user doing the RCS from a separate device (a Mac).
>>
>> Expect the Apple eco-system to continue to expand in capability and
>> features all over, including in iMessage while also adding RCS.
>>
>> [1] Apple do this so well that:  Once upon a time I left my iPhone at
>> work (30 km away).  From my Mac I could still send SMS/MMS to Android
>> users.  The Mac would delegate to my iPhone and conduct the exchange
>> via the internet.  (Won't do voice calls, alas).
>
> You say this as if it's a big deal when any Internet service can do that.
> It's not "Apple" doing it. Android does it too. So does Windows do it.
> Even Linux does it. You're all excited about logging into a server farm.

I'm not making a big deal out of it, I'm bringing up the features and
differences in the systems to answer Andrew's question - which you
snipped out.

But still: you are ignoring how Apple's iCloud services are implemented
and indeed it's because of its implementation that it does so many
things seamlessly that you can't get across Android except in limited
cases and examples.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-11-17 12:10, Andrew wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
>
>>> Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
>>> home-grown messenger app.
>>
>> I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
>> supported in the Apple Messages app.
>
> Did you read the opening post?
> The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.

All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
is: """“This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.” """

This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the
iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.

And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:19:39 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
> But still: you are ignoring how Apple's iCloud services are implemented
> and indeed it's because of its implementation that it does so many
> things seamlessly that you can't get across Android except in limited
> cases and examples.

Big deal.
The walled garden is an Internet server you are logged into all the time.

No matter who makes your operating system (Apple, Google or Microsoft) when
you log into the same Internet server from two separate devices, one in
each hand, then you can do things between those two different devices.

You don't understand that what you're doing isn't actually going from one
device in your left hand to the other device that is in your right hand.

Instead it's going from the one device in your left hand to the Internet
server and then from that Internet server back to the other device.

Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what it is.
Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always be logged in.

On 2023-11-17 12:01, Theo wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>> Idiot. Apple will implement RCS if at all in the manner and quality we
>> are used from Apple. Google plays no role in this picture:
>>
>> Finally, Apple says it will work with the GSMA members on ways to
>> further improve the RCS protocol. This particularly includes improving
>> the security and encryption of RCS messages. Apple also told 9to5Mac
>> that it will not use any sort of proprietary end-to-end encryption on
>> top of RCS. Its focus is on improving the RCS standard itself.
>>
>> For comparison’s sake, Google’s implementation of end-to-end encryption
>> is part of the Messages app on Android rather than the RCS spec itself.
>
> The politics here is that the GSMA may not be in favour of E2EE, because
> governments (and hence telcos) want their interception powers. Google have
> gone it alone in terms of designing an E2EE extension for RCS (based on
> Signal).
>
> It may be that with Google and Apple both in favour of it, suddenly that
> will apply enough pressure on the GSMA to ratify the E2EE spec, perhaps as
> an 'option'. Then Apple and Google both happen to implement the 'optional'
> E2EE. Or the governments may apply pressure on the GSMA not to do so.

With E2EE it doesn't matter what a body in the middle wants you to do.
The only thing they can attempt to do is block encrypted traffic. And
learn (again) that such is not practical in the real world absent a
dictatorship.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-11-17 14:32, Patrick wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:19:39 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>> But still: you are ignoring how Apple's iCloud services are
>> implemented and indeed it's because of its implementation that it does
>> so many things seamlessly that you can't get across Android except in
>> limited cases and examples.
>
> Big deal.
> The walled garden is an Internet server you are logged into all the time.
>
> No matter who makes your operating system (Apple, Google or Microsoft)
> when you log into the same Internet server from two separate devices,
> one in each hand, then you can do things between those two different
> devices.
>
> You don't understand that what you're doing isn't actually going from
> one device in your left hand to the other device that is in your right
> hand.

In some cases it is exactly that, however. No internet involved at all
- therefore no connection to the iCloud server.

> Instead it's going from the one device in your left hand to the Internet
> server and then from that Internet server back to the other device.

Not at all. Things like handoff (and many more) function in the absence
of the internet or cell connection. The devices had to have been logged
into iCloud to validate ownership of the devices, but once there they
can independently "talk to each other" as long as they belong to the
same account.

> Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what it is.
> Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always be logged in.

Again you misconstrue the purpose of the login. While it is for the
server purpose as well it is also to assure that one person's devices
are authorized to talk to one another even if neither is currently
capable of talking to the iCloud servers.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:29:00 -0500 :

>> The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
>
> All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
> is: """�This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
> best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.� """
>
> This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
> RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the
> iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
> uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.
>
> And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
> it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).

I will agree with you that this is extremely careful wording which has been
vetted likely by dozens of high-level executives, lawyers & marketing.

Apple is very good at implying things that they know aren't true and Apple
is getting used to being forced to comply with consumer friendly EU laws.

Apple has supplied every media outlet they could with those carefully
vetted words & no media outlet says they have more information than that.

We all will have to wait to see what it means when Apple says that RCS will
"exist separately" from the iMessage app & still meet consumer expectation.

On 2023-11-17 15:36, Andrew wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:29:00 -0500 :
>
>>> The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
>>
>> All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
>> is: """´This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
>> best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.¡ """
>>
>> This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
>> RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the
>> iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
>> uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.
>>
>> And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
>> it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).
>
> I will agree with you that this is extremely careful wording which has been
> vetted likely by dozens of high-level executives, lawyers & marketing.
>
> Apple is very good at implying things that they know aren't true and Apple
> is getting used to being forced to comply with consumer friendly EU laws.
>
> Apple has supplied every media outlet they could with those carefully
> vetted words & no media outlet says they have more information than that.
>
> We all will have to wait to see what it means when Apple says that RCS will
> "exist separately" from the iMessage app & still meet consumer expectation.

You're looking for sinister where Apple are just making sure they and
their product clients have exclusive use of Apple lanes.

Why I state that it most likely means that as SMS/MMS are handled by
Message(app) on Apple devices currently, so will RCS - that is via the
phone network and not enjoy the "privilege" of using the iMessage
messaging system or other iCloud components.

Further (and they said such very plainly) they will not open iMessage to
3rd parties (beyond the existing and evolving API's).

So Apple reserve their lane and access the other lanes at will.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
>
>>> Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
>>> home-grown messenger app.
>>
>> I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
>> supported in the Apple Messages app.
>
> Did you read the opening post?

I read the entire article. Did *you* read it? Because Apple absolutely
did not say it won't be integrated in the Apple Messages app. You seem
to not know the difference between iMessage, the messaging service, and
Messages, the messaging app. Those are two different things. With that
in mind, try reading what Apple said in their statement again, and maybe
you'll retract your silly statement that "Apple said they won't be
integrating RCS into their home-grown messaging app". I say maybe,
because I fully expect you to instead double down on the dumb like a
troll. But by all means, do surprise me.

> The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
>
>> Go ahead and provide your source for this, please.
>
> Maybe next time read the cites people provided before saying that Apple
> didn't say that RCS will exist separate from iMessage.

I read it more carefully and understood it better than you did, clearly.
Your confusion regarding the difference between Apple's iMessage service
and the Messages app is what drove this conversation.

> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023
> Message-ID: <uj5r4n$2g4e$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
>
> "RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage
> when available."

Great! Now do the Messages app (which isn't called iMessage) and show
where Apple said RCS won't be in the Message app. I'll wait.

> Later on the article reiterates "This is not Apple opening up iMessage to
> other platforms. Instead, it's the company adopting RCS separately from
> iMessage."

Yes, and that will be done in the Apple Messages app.

> Let me give you a bit of advice. When you challenge someone to repeat what
> was already cited you should at least click on the URLs already cited.

Ironic. You clearly didn't understand what you read. Your exact words:
"Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
home-grown messenger app." Wrong.

> I shouldn't have to repeat to you what you didn't bother to read.

I shouldn't have to dumb down something that everyone but you
comprehends, but here we are.

>> Also, that's not a "downside to iMessage".
>
> You didn't understand what I said

I understood perfectly. "Apple has already said that they won't be
integrating it into their home-grown messenger app" can only mean one
thing, and it's incorrect, because Apple absolutely did not say that.

> Apple said RCS would exist separately from iMessage. The question is
> what does "exist" mean and what does "separately" mean to Apple.

It clearly means that like SMS, RCS will not use the iMessage service,
but it will be available in the Apple Messages app just the same.

>>> As of now, there can only be one messenger app

Nonsense. There are many messaging apps available for iOS.

>> That's simply not true.
>
> This is my mistake for not being crystal clear because many people are like
> you are in that they don't realize there can only be one default text
> messenger on any phone, whether that's an iPhone or an Android phone.

Big deal. There will continue to be one default messaging app: Apple's
Messages app. And it will support SMS/RCS and iMessage.

>> There are many messaging apps available for iPhones, including
>> WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of others. Whoever fed
>> you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they are talking about
>> and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.
>
> See above. You need to learn how default text messaging works.

Bitch, please. I know exactly how default text messaging works. SMS
messages come into the Apple Messages app. The only thing changing her
is that RCS messages will also be there.

>>> so a potential downside is Apple may need to open up their walled
>>> garden to multiple messenger apps.
>>
>> There have been multiple alternative messaging apps available for iPhone
>> for decades. That's not a downside for iMessage.
>
> You don't understand the default text messenger concept

The fact that you think that's some complicated concept is telling. It's
not. Children understand the concept of default apps. What you are
missing is iMessage is not the Messages app - two different things.

> probably because you've never used any other default text messenger
> than the iMessage app.

Wrong. I've used all of the above mainstream operating systems, buddy
boy. And again, Apple did not say RCS wouldn't be supported in the
default Messages app. You completely confused iMessage with Messages,
and they are two different things. You've made a fool of yourself.

> Even on Android where you can change your one default text messenger to
> another app, it takes a while to swap over all the existing messages so
> people don't do it all that often in the lifetime of the device.
>
> It's like walking on coals. You can do it. But it hurts.

Irrelevant. Apple did not say RCS won't be supported in the Messages
app, so there's no need to switch to another app for RCS messages.
That's how SMS message work today, and there is no indication it will be
different for RCS.

> Anyway, you seem to be bent on claiming Apple didn't say that RCS will
> exist separate from iMessage so you can go on thinking that if you want.

Nope, what I am claiming is that Apple didn't say RCS won't be supported
in the default messaging app. That's something you said, and it's wrong.

> We can only guess until Apple clarifies what "RCS exists" means to Apple.

Keep wondering if you must.

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On 2023-11-17, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2023-11-17 12:10, Andrew wrote:
>> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
>>
>>>> Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
>>>> home-grown messenger app.
>>>
>>> I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
>>> supported in the Apple Messages app.
>>
>> Did you read the opening post?
>> The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
>
> All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
> is: """“This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
> best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.” """
>
> This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
> RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_

The app is not called "iMessage" - never has been. Apple was referring
to the iMessage service - not an app.

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On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:29:00 -0500 :
>
>>> The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
>>
>> All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
>> is: """´This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
>> best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.¡ """
>>
>> This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
>> RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the
>> iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
>> uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.
>>
>> And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
>> it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).
>
> I will agree with you that this is extremely careful wording which has been
> vetted likely by dozens of high-level executives, lawyers & marketing.
>
> Apple is very good at implying things that they know aren't true

You are such an idiot.

iMessage is not an app. It's a service.

The app isn't called iMessage. Never has been.

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On 11/16/2023 11:39 AM, Andrew wrote:

<snip>

> What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about implementation?

Nothing.

Obviously they did extensive market research and decided that offering
RCS would not negatively affect iPhone sales..

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:43:37 GMT :
>
>>> I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not
>>> like.
>>
>> You're saying that based on your gross ignorance on the subject.
>
> You didn't read any of the cites and then you say that I am who is
> ignorant that every cite says Apple said RCS will exist separately
> from iMessage?

You don't understand the difference between iMessage, the service, and
Messages, the app?

>>> they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
>>
>> You have no evidence this isn't being done willingly.
>
> You have to be the only person in the universe who would say such a
> thing.

Nope. Apple moved from Lightning to USB-C on most of its products
gradually over the span of a few years and moved the iPhone to it before
any law came into effect, all while idiots claimed "Apple was
forced!1!!", and this is exactly the same.

> Apple had no intention of supporting RCS until

Pretend all you want, but you don't know Apple's intentions.

>>> What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
>>> default messenger (just as Android only allows one default
>>> messenger)?
>>
>> That's exactly what is happening. Apple will be adding RCS support to
>> the default Apple Messages app, which is what most people in the
>> United States use anyway.
>
> You seem to know so much about the implementation that nobody else but
> Apple knows, and yet you don't know what Apple said in all the cites.

Wrong. Unlike you, I know the difference between iMessage and Messages.

>>> Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS
>>> chats?
>>
>> Nppe. See above.
>
> You haven't read a single cite and yet you know all about it. Amazing.

You haven't understood a single site, yet you claim to know for sure
Apple won't be supporting RCS in the default messaging app. Amazing.

>>> If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
>>> improvement?
>>
>> People outside of the United States who already use alternative
>> messaging apps and services will continue to do so. Those people
>> don't typically use SMS anyway, so RCS won't be used by them. And for
>> the few that do use SMS, they are already used to those messages
>> appearing in Apple's Messages app. Also, when a message comes in it's
>> displayed in a notification on the screen regardless of what app is
>> running at the time, so tapping it opens whatever app it's from. This
>> "concern" of yours is a big nothing burger.
>
> You don't understand anything about text messaging

Projection. You don't understand the difference between iMessage and
Messages.

> you claim to know everything about Apple's implementation

I made *one* claim: that Apple did *not* say RCS won't be supported in
the default messaging app. And I am 100% correct on that.

> Apple won't clarify what they mean by RCS existing separately from
> iMessages.

Because it's obvious to anyone who knows the difference between iMessage
and Messages. SMS exists separately from iMessage but is supported by
the Messages app - the same will apply to RCS, obviously. You just don't
get it, because: troll.

> "Apple could have simply made iMessage compatible with RCS, which
> would have ended this drama once and for all. But instead, RCS will
> work alongside SMS and MMS in the iPhone's Messages app as an option
> for users who text with non-iPhone users."

But you said Apple stated that RCS won't be supported by the default
messaging app. Wrong.

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On 2023-11-17, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-11-17 17:36, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>>> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 04:01:48 GMT :
>
> ...
>
>>> As of now, there can only be one messenger app
>>
>> That's simply not true. There are many messaging apps available for
>> iPhones, including WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of
>> others. Whoever fed you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they
>> are talking about and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.🤣
>
> In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.

Yes, and? There is *no* indication RCS won't be supported in the default
Apple Messages app.

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On 2023-11-18 00:47, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :

>>>> As of now, there can only be one messenger app
>
> Nonsense. There are many messaging apps available for iOS.

All installed simultaneously, all handling SMS/MMS?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:51:14 +0100 :
>
>> In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.
>
> Thank you for helping him better understand the concept of a default
> text messenger, because multiple times he equated the concept with the
> likes of WhatsApp

It's a matter of record that you didn't add the word "default" until
*after* people responded to your bullshit claim that "there can be only
one messaging app". And it doesn't matter anyway, since there is *zero*
evidence that Apple's default messaging app won't support RCS. You got
all confused thinking iMessage is an app when it's not. Someone should
help *you* learn the difference between an app and a service.

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On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:06:41 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>> Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what it is.
>> Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always be logged in.
>
> Again you misconstrue the purpose of the login. While it is for the
> server purpose as well it is also to assure that one person's devices
> are authorized to talk to one another even if neither is currently
> capable of talking to the iCloud servers.

Do you realize Android devices "securely talk to" a Windows PC WITHOUT
needing the account that you need for Apple, eg using adb over Wi-Fi.

Why are you putting up with the requirement for an account that is not
controlled by you but by Apple when you could do it all without that?