candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote

>>>>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>>
>>>> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
>>> problem.
>>
>> Forever?
>>
>> Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?
>>
>> How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
>> Windows 10.
>
> If it's a big enough problem to be on the news, then yes absolutely. How
> many old systems do you know of that had newsworthy issues? It's mostly
> relatively newer stuff.

This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...

*Most of Android is updated forever*

With each release of Android, more and more operating system components are
being updated forever. And they're also donated to AOSP. Every one of them.

If anyone on the operating system newsgroups is _not_ aware that most of
Android is updated forever, then they don't own adult cognitive skills.

For those who are new to these operating system newsgroups, run this search
<https://duckduckgo.com/&q=what+is+android+project+mainline+and+project+treble>
--
Forever here means nobody knows of any end of life date, and, every module
in Project Mainline is donated to the AOSP for decades-long future support.

On 2023-09-27 16:24, Wally J wrote:
> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote
>
>>>>>> So you contend they should support every OS forever, then?
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>>
>>>>> So should Samsung, Motorola, and everybody else, I make no distinctions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think they should at least offer free updates if there's a security
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Forever?
>>>
>>> Should Apple still be offering free updates to Mac OS 9? 8? System 7?
>>>
>>> How about Microsoft? They don't have any support for anything before
>>> Windows 10.
>>
>> If it's a big enough problem to be on the news, then yes absolutely. How
>> many old systems do you know of that had newsworthy issues? It's mostly
>> relatively newer stuff.
>
> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>
> *Most of Android is updated forever*

You've got cite for that, have you?

On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>>
>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>
> You've got cite for that, have you?
>

The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people will
develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it will be
developed, instead of the other way around.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2023-09-27 22:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>>>
>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>
>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>
>
> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people will
> develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it will be
> developed, instead of the other way around.

How does that address the question I asked?

Do you have a citation for the assertion that "Most of Android is
updated forever"?

There are only two possible answers:

Yes, or...

....no.

On 2023-09-28 01:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can comprehend...
>>>
>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>
>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>
>
> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people will
> develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it will be
> developed, instead of the other way around.

Big difference between apps being updated and OS' being updated by "the
people". That just doesn't happen for mainline distributions of OS'.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> So I now indeed have a 'Google Play system update' from *Google*,
> which is *newer* (August 1, 2023) than my 'Software update' from
> *Samsung* (June 1, 2023).

It's great that Frank just tested his own Samsung to agree that
(unlike iOS) Android updates in asynchronous layers (some of which
are performed over the Internet) which are completely independent
of the carrier & OEM (unlike iOS which uses a primitive update model).

We've been discussing these Android asynchronous updates for years, Frank.
*Android endlessly updates directly from Google Play Services (bypassing carriers & OEMs)*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/1lSF1ZPdpZs/m/9FF0PCIHAgAJ>

In fact, you're bringing up the _same_ methods we've already covered.
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fIAd_j1gC0w/>

Still... your quest is valid - which is to figure out the update frequency.
*Which is a good thing.*
Knowledge is valuable.

In the past, for example, we tried to figure out the update EOL.
*Starting with Android 10, 11 or 12, what part of Android is NOT updated forever?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Tp_BYlwPFX8/m/L4no3D0HAgAJ>

But we were stymied by the lack of concrete information from Google.
*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/>

Hence I agree with your empirical method of finding out the answer.
It's useful to know how frequently Project Mainline updates Androids.

*Help me understand Google's Project Treble & Project Mainline please*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/e3VoHKwm-dY/>

The fact is that Android is updated in layers, with "Project Mainline"
(since renamed) starting in Android 10 being just one of those key layers.

Other layers are the key "Google apps" which is also part of stock Android.
*Google Play update all apps*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/48Qs2nHV5Io/>

But this thread is only about the one layer called "Project Mainline".
And it's about the update frequency of that one layer, right Frank?

Currently there are 34 core modules (aka Android system packages) in
"Project Mainline" (see also "Project Treble" for the hardware drivers)
which are updated over the net asynchronously from the OEM or the carrier.

Please see also the following threads containing useful information.

*Project Mainline updates all Android phones - no matter who makes it*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fSUeOc4jBxQ/>

*Why I believe the Android version doesn't matter as much anymore*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/gzG52aKOloA/>

*The longest hardware & software & warranty support in the industry*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/tFVO52Oc5kM/>

*All common consumer operating systems update in asynchronous layers*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/pmthHKhYSIg/>

*Why is Windows & Android & Linux supported far longer than Apple releases are?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/I_kbln7ETpE/>

*What is the most important update difference between iOS & Android?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/nH3w_-S606s/>

*What is the SIZE difference between iOS & Android updates?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fpIACZI6RCc/>
--
Frank's quest to figure out the Project Mainline update frequency
is a valid quest which I will watch to learn whatever Frank can find
as I learn from every single thread and post to this newsgroup too.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

>> It's a Samsung Galaxy S10+.
>
> Thanks for the confirmation. BTW, mine is a Samsung Galaxy A51, a
> little over 3 years old, came with Android 10, now on 13.
>
> So the strange things are that 1) we (YTIW! :-)) didn't get notified
> that there was a 'Google Play system update', 2) my phone didn't
> download it and 3) your phone downloaded it, but didn't tell you to
> restart.

For that last issue, I believe there is a switch for that, as I've
seen it in passing in the past - but I'll have to look for it Frank.

Meanwhile, as with Frank's Samsung Galaxy A51 and AJL's S10+, my
free T-Mobile Samsung Galaxy A32-5G also updates all the time, where it
started life as Android 11, then 12 and now Android 13 over the years.
<https://i.postimg.cc/X7n5YVVs/galaxy-update-upgrade.jpg>

But the Android version is just a number - it's only one of many layers
of how Android updates most of its components essentially forever [1].
1. User apps are often updated forever (and very many are open source);
2. Key apps like Chrome are updated forever (many are open source);
3. Firmware (such as the Qualcomm modem firmware) are updated by Qualcomm;
4. Security updates (these are sometimes monthly or quarterly for years);
5. Android versions (these are change Android 11, say, to Android 12);
6. Core modules (updated either over GPS on the net or OTA by partners);
7. In addition, all core modules are donated to AOSP to maintain forever.

As Frank is realizing, Android updates in a series of asynchronous layers.
a. Some of those updates (as Frank noted today) occur during a reboot.
b. Others seem to occur seamlessly (without the user even noticing).
c. Most seem to have a switch to determine how they update though.

Hence it's wonderful that Frank is coming to the realization that Android
updates in layers, which we've discussed many times on this newsgroup.

In fact, I think my phone has been updated too frequently lately.
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/nJ1tR7mMlI4/m/7MqhKYeKBwAJ>

Such that I've even turned _off_ some of the many Android update layers.
*Quick: Can I stop, prevent or stave off the upcoming December update?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/udGDxJVcvxo>

Still, unlike the primitive iOS monolith, there are so many Android update
layers that it's hard to control (or even notice) the many Android updates.

One place to look though, but it's only one place so keep that in mind, is
Settings > About phone > Software information >
<https://i.postimg.cc/4ymqRF7n/updateallapps11.jpg>

Notice there are additional Android sub components listed there.
1. Android version
2. Google Play system update
3. Baseband version
4. Kernel version
5. Build number
6. SE for Android status
7. Knox version
8. Service provider software version
9. Carrier configuration version
10. Security software version
11. Android security patch level

However, I think, perhaps, the most important might be these though:
*Android version*
*Google Play system update*
*Android security patch level*

In summary, it's great that Frank is attempting in this thread to figure
out the frequency of the update to the 34 core packages in Android 13.
--
[1] Forever in this context means nobody can find any EOL date
(even if there were an EOL date, they're all donated to AOSP).

On 9/29/23 11:34, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-09-27 22:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can
>>>> comprehend...
>>>>
>>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>>
>>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>>
>>
>> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people
>> will develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it
>> will be developed, instead of the other way around.
>
> How does that address the question I asked?
>
> Do you have a citation for the assertion that "Most of Android is
> updated forever"?
>
> There are only two possible answers:
>
> Yes, or...
>
> ...no.

Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
if Google stops officially supporting it.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2023-09-30 06:08, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/29/23 11:34, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-09-27 22:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can
>>>>> comprehend...
>>>>>
>>>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>>>
>>>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people
>>> will develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it
>>> will be developed, instead of the other way around.
>>
>> How does that address the question I asked?
>>
>> Do you have a citation for the assertion that "Most of Android is
>> updated forever"?
>>
>> There are only two possible answers:
>>
>> Yes, or...
>>
>> ...no.
>
> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
> if Google stops officially supporting it.

But still, officially, there are no updates. Nothing comes through the
official update channels.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-09-30 00:08, candycanearter07 wrote:
> On 9/29/23 11:34, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-09-27 22:04, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> On 9/27/23 22:22, Alan wrote:
>>>>> This is a statement only an educated intelligent adult can
>>>>> comprehend...
>>>>>
>>>>>           *Most of Android is updated forever*
>>>>
>>>> You've got cite for that, have you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The nature of open source is that if it's liked enough, then people
>>> will develop for it. Therefore, as long as Android is relevant, it
>>> will be developed, instead of the other way around.
>>
>> How does that address the question I asked?
>>
>> Do you have a citation for the assertion that "Most of Android is
>> updated forever"?
>>
>> There are only two possible answers:
>>
>> Yes, or...
>>
>> ...no.
>
> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
> if Google stops officially supporting it.

Which is sort of the point. When the OEM stops supporting something, it
is unsupported.

That volunteers do it out of interest is little different than the clubs
that keep old cars running.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote

> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
> if Google stops officially supporting it.

I'm the one who introduced Project Mainline (since renamed) to this ng.

Hence...

I have to ask where you can reference that information, other than you can
turn off Project Mainline (aka "Google Play system updates") if you want.

As far as I know, most of Android is updated asynchronously, about once a
month (sometimes once every 2 months) forever for all Android 10+ devices.

Unless you turn it off (which almost nobody would do).
Or, unless you never reboot the phone (again, which doesn't happen).

However...

I think I know where you're confused - but first - can you cite even a
single reference which backs up your (very interesting) point of view?

Please...

Where did you get the idea that you can control the updates to these 37
core modules which form the bulk of what we refer to as the Android OS?
--
I learn from others and others learn from me - if we keep an open mind.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 12:59:22 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
>> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
>> if Google stops officially supporting it.
>
> But still, officially, there are no updates. Nothing comes through the
> official update channels.

Is your Android phone on Android 10 or newer?
Then it has been constantly updated almost monthly for years.
And it will continue to be constantly updated almost monthly for years.

You just don't notice it because it's almost completely seamless.
https://www.esper.io/blog/building-a-google-play-system-update-changelog

Thanks to Project Mainline, Google is able to seamlessly deliver updates to
core Android system components through the Play Store over the net. These
seamless updates - which are publicly referred to as Google Play System
Updates - can quickly and quietly fix security issues or introduce new
features, and they're constantly routinely delivered to all users on GMS
Android devices running Android 10 and later.

There's one problem with these updates, though: They're so seamless that
it's hard to tell what's actually changed. That's because Google doesn't
post a detailed changelog anywhere, but thankfully, they do publish the
source code for Project Mainline modules on AOSP. With that knowledge, I
started to wonder if it's possible to create an unofficial changelog of
sorts detailing what's actually new in a Google Play System Update?

The answer is yes, but the process of generating a changelog is a bit
cumbersome. In this week's edition of Android Dessert Bites, I'll share an
early look at my Google Play System Update changelog and some of the
unexpected issues I discovered with Project Mainline in the process.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 09:30:38 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

>> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
>> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
>> if Google stops officially supporting it.
>
> Which is sort of the point.

Except that he's wrong.
People like you and people like him don't know what they're talking about.

He's confused "Google Play System updates" with "Google Play Store updates."

Blame Google naming conventions for his confusion.
They're two completely separate things.

The Google Play system updates happen monthly without any user interaction.
They've been happening ~monthly on all Android devices since Sept. 3, 2019.

It's mainly how Android is updated ~monthly for security & bug issues.

> When the OEM stops supporting something, it is unsupported.

What makes you think (or wish?) that Google stopped supporting Android?

> That volunteers do it out of interest is little different than the clubs
> that keep old cars running.

Google supports all Android 10+ phones with ~monthly updates.
Google also (separately) donates all those ~monthly updates to AOSP.

You can't separate the two actions in your mind?
Why not?

Is it that you wish it wasn't true?

On 2023-10-01 16:31, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 09:30:38 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
>>> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
>>> if Google stops officially supporting it.
>>
>> Which is sort of the point.
>
> Except that he's wrong.
> People like you and people like him don't know what they're talking about.
>
> He's confused "Google Play System updates" with "Google Play Store updates."
>
> Blame Google naming conventions for his confusion.
> They're two completely separate things.
>
> The Google Play system updates happen monthly without any user interaction.
> They've been happening ~monthly on all Android devices since Sept. 3, 2019.
>
> It's mainly how Android is updated ~monthly for security & bug issues.
>
>> When the OEM stops supporting something, it is unsupported.
>
> What makes you think (or wish?) that Google stopped supporting Android?

I see your point in that Google have an overall "Android" to support
plus the builds for Google's own phones.

How many versions back does Google issue updates to Android such that
users with a phone get Android updated on their phone that is x years old?

>
>> That volunteers do it out of interest is little different than the clubs
>> that keep old cars running.
>
> Google supports all Android 10+ phones with ~monthly updates.
> Google also (separately) donates all those ~monthly updates to AOSP.

Android 10 is 4 years old. So this is not exactly a loud horn you're
blasting.

The most recent update applicable to iPhone 7 (2016) was iOS 15.7.9
(Sept 11 2023). In case that's a math issue for you, that's 7 years.

(I note this as it is what my SO has).

> You can't separate the two actions in your mind?
> Why not?

Separate enough - but I admit that I'm not especially concerned with
Android.

> Is it that you wish it wasn't true?

Not at all. Competition is good for everyone.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:12:42 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

>>> When the OEM stops supporting something, it is unsupported.
>>
>> What makes you think (or wish?) that Google stopped supporting Android?
>
> I see your point in that Google have an overall "Android" to support
> plus the builds for Google's own phones.
>
> How many versions back does Google issue updates to Android such that
> users with a phone get Android updated on their phone that is x years old?

Every Android 10+ is being updated ~monthly by Google if it's on the net.

The number of updated Android modules depends on the version of Android.
They are security & functional updates to fundamental Android components.

So far every release of Android has added about a half dozen more modules.

>>> That volunteers do it out of interest is little different than the clubs
>>> that keep old cars running.
>>
>> Google supports all Android 10+ phones with ~monthly updates.
>> Google also (separately) donates all those ~monthly updates to AOSP.
>
> Android 10 is 4 years old. So this is not exactly a loud horn you're
> blasting.

I'm not "blasting a loud horn" since it's only you that didn't know this
started with Android 10. I knew it before Android 10 shipped. Long ago.

> The most recent update applicable to iPhone 7 (2016) was iOS 15.7.9
> (Sept 11 2023). In case that's a math issue for you, that's 7 years.

The iPhone 7 has been off full support for quite some time now, so you can
count years but you may as well count the years since Steve Jobs died.

Your count of years that the iPhone 7 has not been supported means nothing.
All Android phones that run Android 10 or later have been updated ~monthly.

People don't realize it because it's all done

>> You can't separate the two actions in your mind?
>> Why not?
>
> Separate enough - but I admit that I'm not especially concerned with
> Android.

No issue here as long as you realize Android support & AOSP are different.
>> Is it that you wish it wasn't true?
>
> Not at all. Competition is good for everyone.

No issue with that.
If the operating systems weren't different, they'd be the same.

Android after version 10 in 2019 has been updated roughly about ~monthly.
iOS is updated when it needs to be updated which is roughly ~monthly too.

Pretty much the main difference is every Android phone over Android 10
is updated while only the iOS phones running iOS 17 get full updates.

On 2023-10-01 17:32, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:12:42 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>>> When the OEM stops supporting something, it is unsupported.
>>>
>>> What makes you think (or wish?) that Google stopped supporting Android?
>>
>> I see your point in that Google have an overall "Android" to support
>> plus the builds for Google's own phones.
>>
>> How many versions back does Google issue updates to Android such that
>> users with a phone get Android updated on their phone that is x years old?
>
> Every Android 10+ is being updated ~monthly by Google if it's on the net.
>
> The number of updated Android modules depends on the version of Android.
> They are security & functional updates to fundamental Android components.
>
> So far every release of Android has added about a half dozen more modules.
>
>>>> That volunteers do it out of interest is little different than the clubs
>>>> that keep old cars running.
>>>
>>> Google supports all Android 10+ phones with ~monthly updates.
>>> Google also (separately) donates all those ~monthly updates to AOSP.
>>
>> Android 10 is 4 years old. So this is not exactly a loud horn you're
>> blasting.
>
> I'm not "blasting a loud horn" since it's only you that didn't know this
> started with Android 10. I knew it before Android 10 shipped. Long ago.
>
>> The most recent update applicable to iPhone 7 (2016) was iOS 15.7.9
>> (Sept 11 2023). In case that's a math issue for you, that's 7 years.
>
>
> The iPhone 7 has been off full support for quite some time now, so you can
> count years but you may as well count the years since Steve Jobs died.
>
> Your count of years that the iPhone 7 has not been supported means nothing.
> All Android phones that run Android 10 or later have been updated ~monthly.

That's a quibble and you know it.

Point is, my SO's 7 year old iPhone received a security update ~7 years
after the phone was put into the market.

Fine with me.

> People don't realize it because it's all done
>
>>> You can't separate the two actions in your mind?
>>> Why not?
>>
>> Separate enough - but I admit that I'm not especially concerned with
>> Android.
>
> No issue here as long as you realize Android support & AOSP are different.
>
>>> Is it that you wish it wasn't true?
>>
>> Not at all. Competition is good for everyone.
>
> No issue with that.
> If the operating systems weren't different, they'd be the same.
>
> Android after version 10 in 2019 has been updated roughly about ~monthly.
> iOS is updated when it needs to be updated which is roughly ~monthly too.
>
> Pretty much the main difference is every Android phone over Android 10
> is updated while only the iOS phones running iOS 17 get full updates.

Not at all, my iPhone 11 gets regular updates as the OS progresses.
Some features are not available as the h/w doesn't support them, but not
much I can do about that.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 10/1/23 15:11, Wally J wrote:
> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote
>
>> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
>> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
>> if Google stops officially supporting it.
>
> I'm the one who introduced Project Mainline (since renamed) to this ng.
>
> Hence...
>
> I have to ask where you can reference that information, other than you can
> turn off Project Mainline (aka "Google Play system updates") if you want.
>
> As far as I know, most of Android is updated asynchronously, about once a
> month (sometimes once every 2 months) forever for all Android 10+ devices.
>
> Unless you turn it off (which almost nobody would do).
> Or, unless you never reboot the phone (again, which doesn't happen).
>
> However...
>
> I think I know where you're confused - but first - can you cite even a
> single reference which backs up your (very interesting) point of view?
>
> Please...
>
> Where did you get the idea that you can control the updates to these 37
> core modules which form the bulk of what we refer to as the Android OS?

Mostly experience from other open source projects

sorry
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2023-10-01 22:18, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Sep 2023 12:59:22 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Project Treble/Mainline let the users create their own updates.
>>> Therefore, it's updated "forever" as long as people keep interest. Even
>>> if Google stops officially supporting it.
>>
>> But still, officially, there are no updates. Nothing comes through the
>> official update channels.
>
> Is your Android phone on Android 10 or newer?
> Then it has been constantly updated almost monthly for years.
> And it will continue to be constantly updated almost monthly for years.

It is still Android 12, not 13. So, not fully updated. Just parts of it.
Unknown parts.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 23:30:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Is your Android phone on Android 10 or newer?
>> Then it has been constantly updated almost monthly for years.
>> And it will continue to be constantly updated almost monthly for years.
>
> It is still Android 12, not 13. So, not fully updated.

It's updated every month just like every Android phone is monthly updated.
It's just done so seamlessly that you don't notice the updates happening.

Even so, there's nothing in Android 13 that you need that you can't do with
Android 12 where what matters more are the monthly security updates which
happen every week but which roll out to your phone only about once a month.

These security updates via the Google Play system update mechanism are
happening right now to your phone but it's seamless so you don't notice.

In fact plenty of people are complaining that it's too seamless because
they don't know what security updates are constantly being applied monthly.

Some are even digging into the donated AOSP source code to find that out.
https://www.esper.io/blog/building-a-google-play-system-update-changelog

> Just parts of it.
> Unknown parts.

I hear you. In the past, nobody knew what was in those monthly updates.
https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/google-monthly-changelog-play-system-updates.html

Even though all Androids since Android 10 have had their security updated
monthly, Google only started listing what those updates were last year.
https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/11412553

This seamless monthly security update to the billions of Android phones on
the Internet is similar to how Microsoft does their periodic updates too.
https://9to5google.com/2022/01/10/whats-new-android-google-play-system-updates/

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:47:37 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

> Point is, my SO's 7 year old iPhone received a security update ~7 years
> after the phone was put into the market.

No issue here as long as you realize the same thing happens with all
operating systems, where Windows has the longest software support overall.

But all operating system vendors, not just Apple, update older devices.

For example, Google recently updated billions of Android phones for serious
bugs down to Android 4.4 over their net-based Google Play update mechanism.

If you don't know any of this, then it's hard for you to say which is best.

>> Pretty much the main difference is every Android phone over Android 10
>> is updated while only the iOS phones running iOS 17 get full updates.
>
> Not at all, my iPhone 11 gets regular updates as the OS progresses.
> Some features are not available as the h/w doesn't support them, but not
> much I can do about that.

No quibble with you on the regular iPhone 11 updates since both iOS and
Android have their own robust update mechanisms for recently built phones.

Neither is better overall. They're completely different though.
If you don't know the differences, you can't say much more until you do.

Apple partially updates prior releases but only fully updates one release.

Google partially updates prior releases where the phone manufacturer
handles the full updates which almost always span multiple releases.

Which is best can't be discussed until you know how they're different.

candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote

>> Where did you get the idea that you can control the updates to these 37
>> core modules which form the bulk of what we refer to as the Android OS?
>
> Mostly experience from other open source projects

I think the fact Google donates the Mainline (aka "Google Play system
update") security updates to the AOSP is a separate issue given I do not
think it's possible to "control" which Mainline updates you get.
*Reboot Chronicles: An in-depth look at Android Mainline updates*
<https://www.intuneirl.com/why-your-android-device-reboots/>

These "forever" security updates are created weekly, according to the
Google blogs in recent Android threads, and they're rolled up to phones
roughly monthly over the Internet so you won't even know when they're
happening as it's all done extremely quietly under the bedcovers.

These monthly security updates are only applied when you reboot. Google
only recently added an animation showing that step in the reboot process.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=google+mainline+updates+reboot+animation>

It looks like the animation showed up only recently, in Android 12.
*Google Play System update install progress now displayed under boot animation*
<https://9to5google.com/2021/07/01/google-play-system-update-install-progress-now-displayed-under-boot-animation/>
<https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/07/01/android-12-got-a-small-reboot-animation-tweak-for-the-impatient-among-us/>
"With the release of Android 10 back in 2019, Google debuted
Project Mainline, an initiative that lets Google directly deliver
updates to key Android components. The goal was to bolster security,
protect privacy, and improve developer consistency by standardizing
certain system components and delivering updates to them on a
consistent schedule.

The mechanisms of Project Mainline are opaque to the user and updates
are delivered in batches with no changelog. The only thing the user
sees is that a "Google Play System Update" is pending on their device,
and after downloading a small package, they're prompted to restart to
apply the changes. After downloading the latest update today, some
users have noticed that the boot animation now shows the percent
completion of the updating process."

Other than that animation, it's completely hidden these monthly forever
security updates to every Android 10+ device connected to the Internet.

That means Android security updates happen seamlessly every month, forever.
As well it should be.
--
Forever here means nobody knows of any EOL date for the 37 core Android
modules and even if there were, the source code is donated to the AOSP.

On 2023-10-04 06:12, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 23:30:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Is your Android phone on Android 10 or newer?
>>> Then it has been constantly updated almost monthly for years.
>>> And it will continue to be constantly updated almost monthly for years.
>>
>> It is still Android 12, not 13. So, not fully updated.
>
> It's updated every month just like every Android phone is monthly updated.
> It's just done so seamlessly that you don't notice the updates happening.
>
> Even so, there's nothing in Android 13 that you need that you can't do with
> Android 12 where what matters more are the monthly security updates which
> happen every week but which roll out to your phone only about once a month.

That is simply not known, as what exactly are those updates is not
published.

My guess is, the updates are designed for the last operating system
version and backported to the others, if or as possible. So there can be
differences in them.

Also there will be features in my phone on 13 that will not be present
on my other phone on 12. I see some mentions of them when my phone gives
me a show of the new features now and then.

>
> These security updates via the Google Play system update mechanism are
> happening right now to your phone but it's seamless so you don't notice.
>
> In fact plenty of people are complaining that it's too seamless because
> they don't know what security updates are constantly being applied monthly.
>
> Some are even digging into the donated AOSP source code to find that out.
> https://www.esper.io/blog/building-a-google-play-system-update-changelog
>
>> Just parts of it.
>> Unknown parts.
>
> I hear you. In the past, nobody knew what was in those monthly updates.
> https://www.androidheadlines.com/2022/01/google-monthly-changelog-play-system-updates.html
>
> Even though all Androids since Android 10 have had their security updated
> monthly, Google only started listing what those updates were last year.
> https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/11412553
>
> This seamless monthly security update to the billions of Android phones on
> the Internet is similar to how Microsoft does their periodic updates too.
> https://9to5google.com/2022/01/10/whats-new-android-google-play-system-updates/

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-10-04 00:23, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023 17:47:37 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> Point is, my SO's 7 year old iPhone received a security update ~7 years
>> after the phone was put into the market.
>
> No issue here as long as you realize the same thing happens with all
> operating systems, where Windows has the longest software support overall.

The point was for those blathering about iPhones not getting updates.

>
> No quibble with you on the regular iPhone 11 updates since both iOS and
> Android have their own robust update mechanisms for recently built phones.
>
> Neither is better overall. They're completely different though.
> If you don't know the differences, you can't say much more until you do.
>
> Apple partially updates prior releases but only fully updates one release.
>
> Google partially updates prior releases where the phone manufacturer
> handles the full updates which almost always span multiple releases.
>
> Which is best can't be discussed until you know how they're different.

Apple choose their implementation and that's all that matters as far as
Apple and iPhone users is concerned.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 10/3/23 23:39, Wally J wrote:
> candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> wrote
>
>>> Where did you get the idea that you can control the updates to these 37
>>> core modules which form the bulk of what we refer to as the Android OS?
>>
>> Mostly experience from other open source projects
>
> I think the fact Google donates the Mainline (aka "Google Play system
> update") security updates to the AOSP is a separate issue given I do not
> think it's possible to "control" which Mainline updates you get.
> *Reboot Chronicles: An in-depth look at Android Mainline updates*
> <https://www.intuneirl.com/why-your-android-device-reboots/>
>

Ah, well at least *if* Google stops supporting it you could still fork
it and keep going.

> That means Android security updates happen seamlessly every month, forever.
> As well it should be.

Very.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom