Last night our power went out, I have my iMac connected to a UPS and the Mac system settings set to shut down the Mac when the UPS gets low. After a few hours I decided to shut it down myself and there were a couple of files--a PDF and maybe a Word or Excel doc--that I hadn't saved changes so it asked me if I wanted to save changes.

What would of happened if the UPS had shut down the computer? Would it have gotten stuck on those programs and not shut down or would the system software give up after a couple minutes and shut down without closing those programs?

On 2023-09-29 10:53, Connor Shannon wrote:
> Last night our power went out, I have my iMac connected to a UPS and the Mac system settings set to shut down the Mac when the UPS gets low. After a few hours I decided to shut it down myself and there were a couple of files--a PDF and maybe a Word or Excel doc--that I hadn't saved changes so it asked me if I wanted to save changes.
>
> What would of happened if the UPS had shut down the computer? Would it have gotten stuck on those programs and not shut down or would the system software give up after a couple minutes and shut down without closing those programs?

I don't have enough information to let you know what will happen in your
particular case.

But what I can tell us that before a Mac completely runs out of power
sufficient to continue running, it will save the contents of RAM to a
file and when power is restored, it will use that file to begin again
from that point.

On Sep 29, 2023 at 10:53:58 AM PDT, "Connor Shannon" <cshannon1898@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Last night our power went out, I have my iMac connected to a UPS and the Mac
> system settings set to shut down the Mac when the UPS gets low. After a few
> hours I decided to shut it down myself and there were a couple of files--a PDF
> and maybe a Word or Excel doc--that I hadn't saved changes so it asked me if I
> wanted to save changes.
>
> What would of happened if the UPS had shut down the computer? Would it have
> gotten stuck on those programs and not shut down or would the system software
> give up after a couple minutes and shut down without closing those programs?

In my experience, when you hit the big red button or pull a power plug, a
computer (or a stove) will power down. Yes, I have an older Mac that takes a
long time to orderly shut down. BUT when there's no more power, a Mac "in the
process" of shutting down will power off without closing programs.

This is why I have the "periodic backup" enabled for Word. I don't know what
other programs do. I'd hate to be in the middle of a big database import and
have the power go off. If the database is in the middle of an import and
there's a power hit, the UPS will "force quit" the import, maybe before power
goes out. What state the database will be in when that happens depends on the
robustness of the database.

If your Mac has Time Machine doing hourly snapshots during working hours, you
can restore to the last snapshot. If it's after hours, you'll probably loose
data after the last snapshot.
--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

On 2023-09-29 11:59, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
> On Sep 29, 2023 at 10:53:58 AM PDT, "Connor Shannon" <cshannon1898@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Last night our power went out, I have my iMac connected to a UPS and the Mac
>> system settings set to shut down the Mac when the UPS gets low. After a few
>> hours I decided to shut it down myself and there were a couple of files--a PDF
>> and maybe a Word or Excel doc--that I hadn't saved changes so it asked me if I
>> wanted to save changes.
>>
>> What would of happened if the UPS had shut down the computer? Would it have
>> gotten stuck on those programs and not shut down or would the system software
>> give up after a couple minutes and shut down without closing those programs?
>
> In my experience, when you hit the big red button or pull a power plug, a
> computer (or a stove) will power down. Yes, I have an older Mac that takes a
> long time to orderly shut down. BUT when there's no more power, a Mac "in the
> process" of shutting down will power off without closing programs.

It will CHOOSE to power off in an orderly fashion.

On 2023-09-29 13:53, Connor Shannon wrote:
> Last night our power went out, I have my iMac connected to a UPS and the Mac system settings set to shut down the Mac when the UPS gets low. After a few hours I decided to shut it down myself and there were a couple of files--a PDF and maybe a Word or Excel doc--that I hadn't saved changes so it asked me if I wanted to save changes.
>
> What would of happened if the UPS had shut down the computer? Would it have gotten stuck on those programs and not shut down or would the system software give up after a couple minutes and shut down without closing those programs?

From what I recall when I had the USB plugged into the UPS the OS has a
mode to save opened files and to open them up in a special state on
re-boot. Whether that required special s/w from the UPS vendor or Apple
I don't recall.

But that was 10 years ago. I still have UPS, but I disconnected the USB
from the UPS and got religion: Jesus Saves.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 9/29/23 1:53 PM, Connor Shannon wrote:
> Last night our power went out, I have my iMac connected to a UPS and the Mac system settings set to shut down the Mac when the UPS gets low. After a few hours I decided to shut it down myself and there were a couple of files--a PDF and maybe a Word or Excel doc--that I hadn't saved changes so it asked me if I wanted to save changes.
>
> What would of happened if the UPS had shut down the computer? Would it have gotten stuck on those programs and not shut down or would the system software give up after a couple minutes and shut down without closing those programs?

I would think it depends on just which brand and model UPS and shut[down
software you're using...Maybe give a little more info?

--
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn

The software is in MacOS it doesn't matter what kind of UPS it is. System settings, Energy saver, UPS options. I have it set to close down when the UPS gets down to 10%. So it won't be any kind of sudden shutdown. MacOS will close the open programs. I just don't know what happens if it can't close a pgm b'cuz something wasn't saved. If it was important to save I would of saved it but sometimes like the other night I'd made a little comment on a PDF so it wouldn't close till I said whether to save it. No big deal but will it stop the shutdown and then stay on until the UPS dies?

So does the Mac skip that program and close the others or does it just give up and shut down suddenly or does it not shut down at all?

On Sep 30, 2023 at 11:12:21 AM PDT, "Connor Shannon" <cshannon1898@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> The software is in MacOS it doesn't matter what kind of UPS it is. System
> settings, Energy saver, UPS options. I have it set to close down when the UPS
> gets down to 10%. So it won't be any kind of sudden shutdown. MacOS will close
> the open programs. I just don't know what happens if it can't close a pgm
> b'cuz something wasn't saved. If it was important to save I would of saved it
> but sometimes like the other night I'd made a little comment on a PDF so it
> wouldn't close till I said whether to save it. No big deal but will it stop
> the shutdown and then stay on until the UPS dies?
>
> So does the Mac skip that program and close the others or does it just give up
> and shut down suddenly or does it not shut down at all?

AFAIK, the mechanism for shutting down programs, the FORCE QUIT option, in the
Finder, would probably use the UNIX KILL -9 signal to do that. Any process
that catches this signal will terminate with extereme prejudice. I doubt the
UPS program uses just the plain KILL signal. Many programs can setup
exceptions to that and ignore it. That's up the developer of the program.

You could test this by running software you normally do and in the command
line use the "kill <process id>" and see if it exits or ignores it, like Word
throwing up a File Save dialog rather than quiting.

The "kill -9 <process id>" Unix command can only be blocked if the process is
doing I/O, e.g. writing to disk or a network socket. In that case, if the I/O
completes before the big Red Button, the process will exit w/o saving
anything. If power drops, same thing. That's when you'll need your snapshot
backup if the file is corrupted.
--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

On 2023-09-30 14:12, Connor Shannon wrote:
>
> The software is in MacOS it doesn't matter what kind of UPS it is. System settings, Energy saver, UPS options. I have it set to close down when the UPS gets down to 10%. So it won't be any kind of sudden shutdown. MacOS will close the open programs. I just don't know what happens if it can't close a pgm b'cuz something wasn't saved. If it was important to save I would of saved it but sometimes like the other night I'd made a little comment on a PDF so it wouldn't close till I said whether to save it. No big deal but will it stop the shutdown and then stay on until the UPS dies?
>
> So does the Mac skip that program and close the others or does it just give up and shut down suddenly or does it not shut down at all?

My recollection of it is that the Mac would shut down. Maybe save the
state of the open-file-program so the work before saving the file is
also conserved.

MS Office products (Excel, Word, etc.) make a backup of WIP every 10
minutes or so you're fairly safe there UPS or not.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-09-30 15:45, Percival John Hackworth wrote:
> On Sep 30, 2023 at 11:12:21 AM PDT, "Connor Shannon" <cshannon1898@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> The software is in MacOS it doesn't matter what kind of UPS it is. System
>> settings, Energy saver, UPS options. I have it set to close down when the UPS
>> gets down to 10%. So it won't be any kind of sudden shutdown. MacOS will close
>> the open programs. I just don't know what happens if it can't close a pgm
>> b'cuz something wasn't saved. If it was important to save I would of saved it
>> but sometimes like the other night I'd made a little comment on a PDF so it
>> wouldn't close till I said whether to save it. No big deal but will it stop
>> the shutdown and then stay on until the UPS dies?
>>
>> So does the Mac skip that program and close the others or does it just give up
>> and shut down suddenly or does it not shut down at all?
>
> AFAIK, the mechanism for shutting down programs, the FORCE QUIT option, in the
> Finder, would probably use the UNIX KILL -9 signal to do that. Any process
> that catches this signal will terminate with extereme prejudice. I doubt the
> UPS program uses just the plain KILL signal. Many programs can setup
> exceptions to that and ignore it. That's up the developer of the program.
>
> You could test this by running software you normally do and in the command
> line use the "kill <process id>" and see if it exits or ignores it, like Word
> throwing up a File Save dialog rather than quiting.
>
> The "kill -9 <process id>" Unix command can only be blocked if the process is
> doing I/O, e.g. writing to disk or a network socket. In that case, if the I/O
> completes before the big Red Button, the process will exit w/o saving
> anything. If power drops, same thing. That's when you'll need your snapshot
> backup if the file is corrupted.

This.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Okay thanks every body. I'm good about saving things a lot and yes I do have Time machine so I wouldn't loose much if this happened I just wondered what would happen if the Mac couldn't close a program. Maybe like Percival says it would force quit or maybe everything would just sit there until the power runs out.

Connor Shannon <cshannon1898@gmail.com> wrote:

> Okay thanks every body. I'm good about saving things a lot and yes I do have Time machine so I wouldn't loose much if this happened I just wondered what would happen if the Mac couldn't close a program. Maybe like Percival says it would force quit or maybe everything would just sit there until the power runs out.

I wonder what happens if TM was running during this shutdown. :O
--
"Though you have not seen [the resurrected Lord Jesus], you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls." --1 Peter 1:8-9. Last Sept. day b4 Oct. with a cold weekend! Damn mosquitoes (they're winning), illnesses, USA, etc.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
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Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2023-09-30 14:12, Connor Shannon wrote:
> >
> > The software is in MacOS it doesn't matter what kind of UPS it is. System settings, Energy saver, UPS options. I have it set to close down when the UPS gets down to 10%. So it won't be any kind of sudden shutdown. MacOS will close the open programs. I just don't know what happens if it can't close a pgm b'cuz something wasn't saved. If it was important to save I would of saved it but sometimes like the other night I'd made a little comment on a PDF so it wouldn't close till I said whether to save it. No big deal but will it stop the shutdown and then stay on until the UPS dies?
> >
> > So does the Mac skip that program and close the others or does it just give up and shut down suddenly or does it not shut down at all?

> My recollection of it is that the Mac would shut down. Maybe save the
> state of the open-file-program so the work before saving the file is
> also conserved.

> MS Office products (Excel, Word, etc.) make a backup of WIP every 10
> minutes or so you're fairly safe there UPS or not.

I hope it doesn't save during shut down to cause corruptions!
--
"Though you have not seen [the resurrected Lord Jesus], you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls." --1 Peter 1:8-9. Last Sept. day b4 Oct. with a cold weekend! Damn mosquitoes (they're winning), illnesses, USA, etc.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 2023-10-01, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> Connor Shannon <cshannon1898@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Okay thanks every body. I'm good about saving things a lot and yes I
>> do have Time machine so I wouldn't loose much if this happened I just
>> wondered what would happen if the Mac couldn't close a program. Maybe
>> like Percival says it would force quit or maybe everything would just
>> sit there until the power runs out.
>
> I wonder what happens if TM was running during this shutdown. :O

At worst, Time Machine will detect that the latest backup needs to be
verified. 🙄

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On Sep 30, 2023 at 6:57:48 PM PDT, "Ant" <Ant> wrote:

> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-09-30 14:12, Connor Shannon wrote:
>>>
>>> The software is in MacOS it doesn't matter what kind of UPS it is. System
>>> settings, Energy saver, UPS options. I have it set to close down when the
>>> UPS gets down to 10%. So it won't be any kind of sudden shutdown. MacOS will
>>> close the open programs. I just don't know what happens if it can't close a
>>> pgm b'cuz something wasn't saved. If it was important to save I would of
>>> saved it but sometimes like the other night I'd made a little comment on a
>>> PDF so it wouldn't close till I said whether to save it. No big deal but
>>> will it stop the shutdown and then stay on until the UPS dies?
>>>
>>> So does the Mac skip that program and close the others or does it just give
>>> up and shut down suddenly or does it not shut down at all?
>
>> My recollection of it is that the Mac would shut down. Maybe save the
>> state of the open-file-program so the work before saving the file is
>> also conserved.
>
>> MS Office products (Excel, Word, etc.) make a backup of WIP every 10
>> minutes or so you're fairly safe there UPS or not.
>
> I hope it doesn't save during shut down to cause corruptions!

On APFS volumes, TM is using snapshots to do the backup. The trick is figuring
out what changed since the last backup. That's as far I know about TM. This
site has a lot of info on how TM works.

https://eclecticlight.co/?s=Time+Machine

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...