Deliberate X-Post for reasons that will become apparent.

Back in February 2019 in uk.telecom.broadband I began a thread entitled
'Routers' asking for advice about what routers would match a given list
of criteria, the result of which was that it was suggested to me, by
Andy Burns I think, that I should flash OpenWRT onto a BT Home Hub 5a.
This I did, and have been using it satisfactorily since with a mobile
dongle plugged into the USB port, so, if you're reading this, thanks
again Andy.

For reference in what follows, I'm using a contract Three SIM.

Before explaining the current problem, and/or as a general introductory
note, there appear to be two most common types of these mobile dongles,
the first a serial type that is controlled as if it were an
old-fashioned modem, and the other which creates a self-contained
subnet, which Huawei call 'HiLink'. I think there are other types as
well, but these are the two I've encountered most often.

The first dongle I tried was a Huawei E3372s (s = serial type). It
worked pretty well for a while, but then the connection became flaky and
when I tried unplugging it from the USB extension lead it was almost too
hot to touch.

So next I tried a ZTE MF823, which is a 'HiLink' type, and that has
lasted much better, until a few days ago when a lightning strike in the
area caused a mains spike, and it's been dead flaky since, particularly
during hot weather. At first I thought it was the router that was
affected, but I have a spare ready to swap in, and the dongle didn't
work with that either, nor when it was directly plugged into a PC, so,
while the router may have been affected somewhat, the dongle is
definitely on the way out.

I have also a BT 4G Assure dongle, which a rebadged Huawei E3372h (h =
'HiLink' type). I appear to have managed to unlock it, and have had it
working in a PC, where I was also able to access its control page at
192.168.8.1, but I can't get it to work with the BTHH5a.

For the ZTE, the relevant part of /etc/config/network reads ...

config interface 'WAN_USB'
option proto 'dhcp'
option ifname 'usb0'

.... and this 'just works'. However, it doesn't work with the HuaWei,
where, according to instructions found online, the relevant part of the
file should read ...

config interface 'WAN_USB'
option proto 'dhcp'
option ifname 'eth1'

.... and certainly this seems to get closer to working than the previous
setting for the ZTE, in that the 'Interfaces' page of the router shows
some activity on the connection, but I can't access the control page of
the dongle at 192.168.8.1. Curiously, it's the same whether or not I
have a SIM in the dongle!

So my first question is: Can anyone help me get the BT-Badged Huawei
E3372h working?

The next question has been brought about by the above problems.
Anticipating a situation where the ZTE goes down completely, and perhaps
some time into the future the Huawei as well, I'll need a viable
back-up. Previously I achieved this by putting my Samsung SM-T719
tablet into mobile hotspot mode, then using a reflashed Cisco WRT320N as
a client-bridge to it, and connecting one of its LAN ports to the WAN
port of the BTHH5a. This worked very well, allowing me a backup path
requiring no changes other than a minimal reconfiguration of the router,
but the Cisco has now died, so the only backup I can think of now is to
connect the tablet directly to the BTHH5a via a USB cable, but my
recollection of trying this before is of getting absolutely nowhere.

So my other question is: Can anyone tell me how to connect to the
internet from a Linux machine, which is what the BTHH5a effectively is,
via a Samsung mobile?

Tx in advance for any help received.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 2023-06-25 19:49, Java Jive wrote:
> Deliberate X-Post for reasons that will become apparent.
>
> Back in February 2019 in uk.telecom.broadband I began a thread entitled
> 'Routers' asking for advice about what routers would match a given list
> of criteria, the result of which was that it was suggested to me, by
> Andy Burns I think, that I should flash OpenWRT onto a BT Home Hub 5a.
> This I did, and have been using it satisfactorily since with a mobile
> dongle plugged into the USB port, so, if you're reading this, thanks
> again Andy.
>
> For reference in what follows, I'm using a contract Three SIM.
>
> Before explaining the current problem, and/or as a general introductory
> note, there appear to be two most common types of these mobile dongles,
> the first a serial type that is controlled as if it were an
> old-fashioned modem, and the other which creates a self-contained
> subnet, which Huawei call 'HiLink'.  I think there are other types as
> well, but these are the two I've encountered most often.
>
> The first dongle I tried was a Huawei E3372s (s = serial type).  It
> worked pretty well for a while, but then the connection became flaky and
> when I tried unplugging it from the USB extension lead it was almost too
> hot to touch.
>
> So next I tried a ZTE MF823, which is a 'HiLink' type, and that has
> lasted much better, until a few days ago when a lightning strike in the
> area caused a mains spike, and it's been dead flaky since, particularly
> during hot weather.  At first I thought it was the router that was
> affected, but I have a spare ready to swap in, and the dongle didn't
> work with that either, nor when it was directly plugged into a PC, so,
> while the router may have been affected somewhat, the dongle is
> definitely on the way out.
>
> I have also a BT 4G Assure dongle, which a rebadged Huawei E3372h (h =
> 'HiLink' type).  I appear to have managed to unlock it, and have had it
> working in a PC, where I was also able to access its control page at
> 192.168.8.1, but I can't get it to work with the BTHH5a.
>
> For the ZTE, the relevant part of /etc/config/network reads ...
>
> config interface 'WAN_USB'
>         option proto 'dhcp'
>         option ifname 'usb0'
>
> ... and this 'just works'.  However, it doesn't work with the HuaWei,
> where, according to instructions found online, the relevant part of the
> file should read ...
>
> config interface 'WAN_USB'
>         option proto 'dhcp'
>         option ifname 'eth1'
>
> ... and certainly this seems to get closer to working than the previous
> setting for the ZTE, in that the 'Interfaces' page of the router shows
> some activity on the connection, but I can't access the control page of
> the dongle at 192.168.8.1.  Curiously, it's the same whether or not I
> have a SIM in the dongle!
>
> So my first question is:  Can anyone help me get the BT-Badged Huawei
> E3372h working?
>
> The next question has been brought about by the above problems.
> Anticipating a situation where the ZTE goes down completely, and perhaps
> some time into the future the Huawei as well, I'll need a viable
> back-up.  Previously I achieved this by putting my Samsung SM-T719
> tablet into mobile hotspot mode, then using a reflashed Cisco WRT320N as
> a client-bridge to it, and connecting one of its LAN ports to the WAN
> port of the BTHH5a.  This worked very well, allowing me a backup path
> requiring no changes other than a minimal reconfiguration of the router,
> but the Cisco has now died, so the only backup I can think of now is to
> connect the tablet directly to the BTHH5a via a USB cable, but my
> recollection of trying this before is of getting absolutely nowhere.
>
> So my other question is:  Can anyone tell me how to connect to the
> internet from a Linux machine, which is what the BTHH5a effectively is,
> via a Samsung mobile?

At another location, I use a router with a SIM card directly inserted
inside. It is a "TP-Link TL-MR6400 V5.20 Router 4G LTE 300Mbps". I'm
quite happy with it.

The router web page has access to the "phone", it even can send and
receive SMS messages.

Other times, I connected my latop via USB to my Motorola phone. It just
worked. Obviously I told the phone to supply internet via usb "somehow",
but I have forgotten the details. I think the phone just asks when I
connect the cable. Then on the computer, I setup the connection with
network manager, which "just works", mostly.

After that, I instead told the phone to supply internet via WiFi. This
worked better, but I don't remember why.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Tx to Carlos for the sole reply so far. I have solved the second
problem ...

On 25/06/2023 18:49, Java Jive wrote:
>
> the relevant part of the file should read ...
>
> config interface 'WAN_USB'
>         option proto 'dhcp'
>         option ifname 'eth1'
>
> .... and certainly this seems to get closer to working than the previous
> setting for the ZTE, in that the 'Interfaces' page of the router shows
> some activity on the connection, but I can't access the control page of
> the dongle at 192.168.8.1.  Curiously, it's the same whether or not I
> have a SIM in the dongle!
>
> So my first question is:  Can anyone help me get the BT-Badged Huawei
> E3372h working?
>
> The next question has been brought about by the above problems.
> Anticipating a situation where the ZTE goes down completely, and perhaps
> some time into the future the Huawei as well, I'll need a viable
> back-up.  Previously I achieved this by putting my Samsung SM-T719
> tablet into mobile hotspot mode, then using a reflashed Cisco WRT320N as
> a client-bridge to it, and connecting one of its LAN ports to the WAN
> port of the BTHH5a.  This worked very well, allowing me a backup path
> requiring no changes other than a minimal reconfiguration of the router,
> but the Cisco has now died, so the only backup I can think of now is to
> connect the tablet directly to the BTHH5a via a USB cable, but my
> recollection of trying this before is of getting absolutely nowhere.
>
> So my other question is:  Can anyone tell me how to connect to the
> internet from a Linux machine, which is what the BTHH5a effectively is,
> via a Samsung mobile?

Lots of searching made the dispiriting discovery that apparently some
Samsung phones, even quite modern ones, only work with Windows, because
with Linux they fail to generate a proper random MAC address, the result
is all zeros. Thankfully this is not a problem with my Samsung phablet,
it generates random MACs properly, and is an RNDIS device.

So the instructions for getting USB tethering to work are:

1) Install the modules:
kmod-usb-net-rndis
usb-modeswitch

2) As with the ZTE, the relevant section of /etc/config/network should
read:

config interface 'WAN_USB'
option proto 'dhcp'
option ifname 'usb0'

Reboot, turn on USB tethering on the phone, log on to the router's admin
and connect the WAN_USB interface, and it works!

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive wrote:

> there appear to be two most common types of these mobile dongles,
> the first a serial type that is controlled as if it were an
> old-fashioned modem, and the other which creates a self-contained
> subnet, which Huawei call 'HiLink'.

There is a way to convert the Huawei dongles between "h" and "s" mode, I
found various poorly documented methods and files on the web, and did
successfully convert mine, I think the phrase "needle method" might find
it, but it was quite risky ...

In the end I found that a major version upgrade of openWRT left the USB
stack unusable for the dongle, it crashed the kernel, I couldn't get
much interest from the developers, so I ended-up going to a Vigor router.

In uk.telecom.broadband Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> Deliberate X-Post for reasons that will become apparent.
>
> Back in February 2019 in uk.telecom.broadband I began a thread entitled
> 'Routers' asking for advice about what routers would match a given list
> of criteria, the result of which was that it was suggested to me, by
> Andy Burns I think, that I should flash OpenWRT onto a BT Home Hub 5a.
> This I did, and have been using it satisfactorily since with a mobile
> dongle plugged into the USB port, so, if you're reading this, thanks
> again Andy.

OK, I've got one (actually two) of those...

> I have also a BT 4G Assure dongle, which a rebadged Huawei E3372h (h =
> 'HiLink' type). I appear to have managed to unlock it, and have had it
> working in a PC, where I was also able to access its control page at
> 192.168.8.1, but I can't get it to work with the BTHH5a.

I also have one of those. But the consensus at the time (about 4 years ago)
was that it was impossible to unlock, ie to use on a network that wasn't BT.

> So my first question is: Can anyone help me get the BT-Badged Huawei
> E3372h working?

Instead of randomly fiddling with the router config, I'd first see if you
can get a link up on the device. For this you'll need to know how to use
the 'ip' command (successor to 'ifconfig'):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iproute2

ip link show
(see if the networking device appears when it's plugged in)
ip addr show
(see if an IP address is associated with it)
udhcpc eth99
(see if it will acquire an IP address via DHCP)
ip route show
(see if it picked up a route to anywhere)
ping 8.8.8.8
(ping an internet address)

The advantage of this route is you can see what's going on, whereas with the
GUI it's just random trial and error with no feedback. You do however need
to know a little about how Linux networking works.

Unless you can find someone who has already got it to work and written up
the exact instructions what to do, which is possible I suppose.

> The next question has been brought about by the above problems.
> Anticipating a situation where the ZTE goes down completely, and perhaps
> some time into the future the Huawei as well, I'll need a viable
> back-up. Previously I achieved this by putting my Samsung SM-T719
> tablet into mobile hotspot mode, then using a reflashed Cisco WRT320N as
> a client-bridge to it, and connecting one of its LAN ports to the WAN
> port of the BTHH5a. This worked very well, allowing me a backup path
> requiring no changes other than a minimal reconfiguration of the router,
> but the Cisco has now died, so the only backup I can think of now is to
> connect the tablet directly to the BTHH5a via a USB cable, but my
> recollection of trying this before is of getting absolutely nowhere.
>
> So my other question is: Can anyone tell me how to connect to the
> internet from a Linux machine, which is what the BTHH5a effectively is,
> via a Samsung mobile?

The same general principle should work for this too, although I'm not sure
whether it'll need some extra if it's showing up as a USB serial device
(which would need PPP starting).

You might find this kind of debugging easier from a Linux laptop/desktop, as
the environment on OpenWRT is a bit limited (eg it doesn't have the regular
'dhclient', you have to use udhcpc which is part of busybox) and you don't
have all the creature comforts of a full Linux machine.

Theo

Theo wrote:

> Instead of randomly fiddling with the router config, I'd first see if you
> can get a link up on the device.

I found the dongle "just worked" using NetworkManager GUI on various
Fedora versions

On 26/06/2023 11:14, Theo wrote:
> In uk.telecom.broadband Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Deliberate X-Post for reasons that will become apparent.
>>
>> Back in February 2019 in uk.telecom.broadband I began a thread entitled
>> 'Routers' asking for advice about what routers would match a given list
>> of criteria, the result of which was that it was suggested to me, by
>> Andy Burns I think, that I should flash OpenWRT onto a BT Home Hub 5a.
>> This I did, and have been using it satisfactorily since with a mobile
>> dongle plugged into the USB port, so, if you're reading this, thanks
>> again Andy.
>
> OK, I've got one (actually two) of those...
>
>> I have also a BT 4G Assure dongle, which a rebadged Huawei E3372h (h =
>> 'HiLink' type). I appear to have managed to unlock it, and have had it
>> working in a PC, where I was also able to access its control page at
>> 192.168.8.1, but I can't get it to work with the BTHH5a.
>
> I also have one of those. But the consensus at the time (about 4 years ago)
> was that it was impossible to unlock, ie to use on a network that wasn't BT.

Changes in UK law a year or two back mean that they have to allow
unlocking. I rang BT and they gave me an unlock code.

>> So my first question is: Can anyone help me get the BT-Badged Huawei
>> E3372h working?
>
> Instead of randomly fiddling with the router config, I'd first see if you
> can get a link up on the device. For this you'll need to know how to use
> the 'ip' command (successor to 'ifconfig'):
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iproute2
>
> ip link show
> (see if the networking device appears when it's plugged in)
> ip addr show
> (see if an IP address is associated with it)
> udhcpc eth99
> (see if it will acquire an IP address via DHCP)
> ip route show
> (see if it picked up a route to anywhere)
> ping 8.8.8.8
> (ping an internet address)
>
> The advantage of this route is you can see what's going on, whereas with the
> GUI it's just random trial and error with no feedback. You do however need
> to know a little about how Linux networking works.

Thanks, I'll have a go at this next time the ZTE breaks down, which it
may well do this afternoon during the hottest part of the day.

> Unless you can find someone who has already got it to work and written up
> the exact instructions what to do, which is possible I suppose.

I have found some instructions as below but they didn't work for me ...

https://protyposis.net/blog/using-the-huawei-e3372-hi-link-lte-dongle-with-openwrt/
https://gist.github.com/bjoern-r/1345e8a17f4acf41006330e688af1441

.... so, I guess one of two things is happening:

:-( I have a number of other modules installed from using the router
with other devices, and one of these, most probably the one that works
with an E3372s, is interfering with the E3372h.

:-( There a different generations of the E3372h and only some of them
work.

If the your suggestions above don't yield an answer, I'll try and
include some tail from dmesg as I unplug and plug back in the dongle.

[Snip as last problem now solved. It was observing the messages that
occurred from dmesg output as I unplugged and plugged back in the phone
and enabled and disabled USB tethering on it that made me realise that
it was an RNDIS device.]

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 26/06/2023 12:19, Java Jive wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 11:14, Theo wrote:
>> In uk.telecom.broadband Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> Deliberate X-Post for reasons that will become apparent.
>>>
>>> Back in February 2019 in uk.telecom.broadband I began a thread entitled
>>> 'Routers' asking for advice about what routers would match a given list
>>> of criteria, the result of which was that it was suggested to me, by
>>> Andy Burns I think, that I should flash OpenWRT onto a BT Home Hub 5a.
>>> This I did, and have been using it satisfactorily since with a mobile
>>> dongle plugged into the USB port, so, if you're reading this, thanks
>>> again Andy.
>>
>> OK, I've got one (actually two) of those...
>>
>>> I have also a BT 4G Assure dongle, which a rebadged Huawei E3372h (h =
>>> 'HiLink' type).  I appear to have managed to unlock it, and have had it
>>> working in a PC, where I was also able to access its control page at
>>> 192.168.8.1, but I can't get it to work with the BTHH5a.
>>
>> I also have one of those.  But the consensus at the time (about 4
>> years ago)
>> was that it was impossible to unlock, ie to use on a network that
>> wasn't BT.
>
> Changes in UK law a year or two back mean that they have to allow
> unlocking.  I rang BT and they gave me an unlock code.
>
>>> So my first question is:  Can anyone help me get the BT-Badged Huawei
>>> E3372h working?
>>
>> Instead of randomly fiddling with the router config, I'd first see if you
>> can get a link up on the device.  For this you'll need to know how to use
>> the 'ip' command (successor to 'ifconfig'):
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iproute2
>>
>> ip link show
>> (see if the networking device appears when it's plugged in)
>> ip addr show
>> (see if an IP address is associated with it)
>> udhcpc eth99
>> (see if it will acquire an IP address via DHCP)
>> ip route show
>> (see if it picked up a route to anywhere)
>> ping 8.8.8.8
>> (ping an internet address)
>>
>> The advantage of this route is you can see what's going on, whereas
>> with the
>> GUI it's just random trial and error with no feedback.  You do however
>> need
>> to know a little about how Linux networking works.
>
> Thanks, I'll have a go at this next time the ZTE breaks down, which it
> may well do this afternoon during the hottest part of the day.
>
>> Unless you can find someone who has already got it to work and written up
>> the exact instructions what to do, which is possible I suppose.
>
> I have found some instructions as below but they didn't work for me ...
>
> https://protyposis.net/blog/using-the-huawei-e3372-hi-link-lte-dongle-with-openwrt/
>
> https://gist.github.com/bjoern-r/1345e8a17f4acf41006330e688af1441
>
> ... so, I guess one of two things is happening:
>
>  :-(  I have a number of other modules installed from using the router
> with other devices, and one of these, most probably the one that works
> with an E3372s, is interfering with the E3372h.
>
>  :-(  There a different generations of the E3372h and only some of them
> work.
>
> If the your suggestions above don't yield an answer, I'll try and
> include some tail from dmesg as I unplug and plug back in the dongle.
>
> [Snip as last problem now solved.  It was observing the messages that
> occurred from dmesg output as I unplugged and plugged back in the phone
> and enabled and disabled USB tethering on it that made me realise that
> it was an RNDIS device.]
>
As you are dependent on 4G broadband why not buy a 4G WiFi router
designed for the job?

On 26/06/2023 13:16, MikeS wrote:
>
> As you are dependent on 4G broadband why not buy a 4G WiFi router
> designed for the job?

In the original thread, I outlined a list of requirements ...
* Is for the UK market and available here
* Supports A/VDSL, Data SIM (perhaps via USB), & cable WAN
* Has WiFi to n or ac standard
* Has at least three or four Gigabit LAN ports
* When in LAN DHCP mode, properly supports local DNS
* Is affordable, say ~< £150 new, half that used.
.... and given that many, perhaps most, commercial routers, even from
reputable firms such as DrayTek, don't do local DNS properly, or at the
time didn't have Gigabit LAN ports, etc, this was a cheap, *very* cheap,
solution that has worked very well for me. The only real problem has
been the short lifespan of the dongles.

It's true that now I've discontinued my landline I could reconsider my
options, especially as it appears FTTP and VOIP are replacing
conventional landlines, but I'll probably die before we ever get FTTP here!

There is also a local firm Highland Wireless, but they are about £10
more per month for the equivalent unlimited package that I'm on with
Three, and to me the faster speeds wouldn't be worth the extra outlay.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 26/06/2023 13:58, Java Jive wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 13:16, MikeS wrote:
>>
>> As you are dependent on 4G broadband why not buy a 4G WiFi router
>> designed for the job?
>
> In the original thread, I outlined a list of requirements ...
>     *    Is for the UK market and available here
>     *    Supports A/VDSL, Data SIM (perhaps via USB), & cable WAN
>     *    Has WiFi to n or ac standard
>     *    Has at least three or four Gigabit LAN ports
>     *    When in LAN DHCP mode, properly supports local DNS
>     *    Is affordable, say ~< £150 new, half that used.
> ... and given that many, perhaps most, commercial routers, even from
> reputable firms such as DrayTek, don't do local DNS properly, or at the
> time didn't have Gigabit LAN ports, etc

Plenty now have 4 LAN ports, many do support A/VDSL & cable WAN (with 4G
Data SIM for backup) but you don't have a landline or cable service so
those "issues" are gone anyway, in the unlikely event of "don't do local
DNS properly" you can always use something like DNSMasq on your server
(or even with a dedicated raspberry pi).

On 26/06/2023 17:32, MikeS wrote:
>
> On 26/06/2023 13:58, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> On 26/06/2023 13:16, MikeS wrote:
>>>
>>> As you are dependent on 4G broadband why not buy a 4G WiFi router
>>> designed for the job?
>>
>> In the original thread, I outlined a list of requirements ...
>>      *    Is for the UK market and available here
>>      *    Supports A/VDSL, Data SIM (perhaps via USB), & cable WAN
>>      *    Has WiFi to n or ac standard
>>      *    Has at least three or four Gigabit LAN ports
>>      *    When in LAN DHCP mode, properly supports local DNS
>>      *    Is affordable, say ~< £150 new, half that used.
>> ... and given that many, perhaps most, commercial routers, even from
>> reputable firms such as DrayTek, don't do local DNS properly, or at
>> the time didn't have Gigabit LAN ports, etc
>
> Plenty now have 4 LAN ports,

Yes, most of them have 4 LAN ports, but that is not the full criteria.
Supposedly, gigabit has been with us since 1998, yet even 20 years later
it was still common to find routers with only fast ethernet ports, or
with only one of them gigabit.

> many do support A/VDSL & cable WAN (with 4G
> Data SIM for backup) but you don't have a landline or cable service so
> those "issues" are gone anyway, in the

.... actually, likely, ...

> event of "don't do local
> DNS properly" you can always use something like DNSMasq on your server
> (or even with a dedicated raspberry pi).

I don't want to have to setup and configure another box to do something
that the router should be doing for itself, it makes more sense to do
what I did, just create a router that works properly.

AIUI, according to the DNS specs, when given a machine name to find, a
DNS service should look for the name first in its local database, and if
it can't find it there, relay it upstream to the WAN server. However,
scandalously IMO, very few routers seem to implement this properly,
usually they offer a choice to act as a relay, in which case there is no
local DNS, or act as a server, in which case there is no WAN DNS.

AFAICR *all* the commercial and ISP-provided routers that I've ever had,
and certainly until a year or two back, and very possibly still, even
expensive routers such as DrayTek Vigor *still* have this trouble.
Sure, I understand that with DV there are work-arounds involving
entering the names of local machines into some table in the DV system in
some way, but it shouldn't be necessary to do this if the DNS service is
set up properly in the first place.

The reason for this widespread mode of failure is easy enough to
understand. Where the routers are used *ONLY* with Windows PCs, by
default Windows NetBIOS over TCP/IP runs a Computer Browser service
which makes the first PC to power-up on the network the 'Master
Browser', which others powering-up later can query for machine names.
Thus NetBIOS completely masks the failure of most routers to perform DNS
properly. The fault only becomes apparent when there are Linux machines
on the network communicating via NFS rather than SAMBA. The widespread
failure of routers to implement DNS properly shows that they are only
ever being tested with Windows machines on a network. Perhaps the
recent explosion of non-Windows machines such as mobile phones will
cause this finally to be sorted out, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 17:32, MikeS wrote:
>>
>> On 26/06/2023 13:58, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> On 26/06/2023 13:16, MikeS wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As you are dependent on 4G broadband why not buy a 4G WiFi router
>>>> designed for the job?
>>>
>>> In the original thread, I outlined a list of requirements ...
>>>      *    Is for the UK market and available here
>>>      *    Supports A/VDSL, Data SIM (perhaps via USB), & cable WAN
>>>      *    Has WiFi to n or ac standard
>>>      *    Has at least three or four Gigabit LAN ports
>>>      *    When in LAN DHCP mode, properly supports local DNS
>>>      *    Is affordable, say ~< £150 new, half that used.
>>> ... and given that many, perhaps most, commercial routers, even from
>>> reputable firms such as DrayTek, don't do local DNS properly, or at
>>> the time didn't have Gigabit LAN ports, etc
>>
>> Plenty now have 4 LAN ports,
>
> Yes, most of them have 4 LAN ports, but that is not the full criteria.
> Supposedly, gigabit has been with us since 1998, yet even 20 years later
> it was still common to find routers with only fast ethernet ports, or
> with only one of them gigabit.
>
>> many do support A/VDSL & cable WAN (with 4G
>> Data SIM for backup) but you don't have a landline or cable service so
>> those "issues" are gone anyway, in the
>
> ... actually, likely, ...
>
>> event of "don't do local
>> DNS properly" you can always use something like DNSMasq on your server
>> (or even with a dedicated raspberry pi).
>
> I don't want to have to setup and configure another box to do something
> that the router should be doing for itself, it makes more sense to do
> what I did, just create a router that works properly.
>
> AIUI, according to the DNS specs, when given a machine name to find, a
> DNS service should look for the name first in its local database, and if
> it can't find it there, relay it upstream to the WAN server. However,
> scandalously IMO, very few routers seem to implement this properly,
> usually they offer a choice to act as a relay, in which case there is no
> local DNS, or act as a server, in which case there is no WAN DNS.
>
> AFAICR *all* the commercial and ISP-provided routers that I've ever had,
> and certainly until a year or two back, and very possibly still, even
> expensive routers such as DrayTek Vigor *still* have this trouble.
> Sure, I understand that with DV there are work-arounds involving
> entering the names of local machines into some table in the DV system in
> some way, but it shouldn't be necessary to do this if the DNS service is
> set up properly in the first place.
>
> The reason for this widespread mode of failure is easy enough to
> understand. Where the routers are used *ONLY* with Windows PCs, by
> default Windows NetBIOS over TCP/IP runs a Computer Browser service
> which makes the first PC to power-up on the network the 'Master
> Browser', which others powering-up later can query for machine names.
> Thus NetBIOS completely masks the failure of most routers to perform DNS
> properly. The fault only becomes apparent when there are Linux machines
> on the network communicating via NFS rather than SAMBA. The widespread
> failure of routers to implement DNS properly shows that they are only
> ever being tested with Windows machines on a network. Perhaps the
> recent explosion of non-Windows machines such as mobile phones will
> cause this finally to be sorted out, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
>

Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my home
network.

On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>
> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my home
> network.

But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and install
it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing for itself?
The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS proves what I was
saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by most routers is a
problem. The correct way to solve that problem is to fix the routers,
not introduce a source of other potential problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast_DNS

"By default, mDNS exclusively resolves hostnames ending with the .local
top-level domain. This can cause problems if .local includes hosts that
do not implement mDNS but that can be found via a conventional unicast
DNS server. Resolving such conflicts requires network-configuration
changes that mDNS was designed to avoid. "

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 26/06/2023 21:18, Java Jive wrote:
> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and install
> it, and configure it,

That might be a more convincing argument if you had not previously
described in graphic detail your efforts to botch together a BT hub
solution using custom firmware and OpenWRT plus assorted overheating USB
dongles.

On 26/06/2023 22:12, MikeS wrote:
>
> On 26/06/2023 21:18, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>> install it, and configure it,

Snipped content restored: to do what the router should be doing for itself?

The point still stands.

> That might be a more convincing argument if you had not previously
> described in graphic detail your efforts to botch together a BT hub
> solution using custom firmware and OpenWRT plus assorted overheating USB
> dongles.

Despite the relatively short life-span of the dongles that I've tried so
far, the result is still significantlyh better than any other router
that I've owned previously, including a DrayTek Vigor.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 22:12, MikeS wrote:
>>
>> On 26/06/2023 21:18, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>>> install it, and configure it,
>
> Snipped content restored: to do what the router should be doing for itself?
>
> The point still stands.
>
>> That might be a more convincing argument if you had not previously
>> described in graphic detail your efforts to botch together a BT hub
>> solution using custom firmware and OpenWRT plus assorted overheating USB
>> dongles.
>
> Despite the relatively short life-span of the dongles that I've tried so
> far, the result is still significantlyh better than any other router
> that I've owned previously, including a DrayTek Vigor.
>

mDNS just worked for me. In fact I had to look it up and learn about it
when I found that .local addresses resolved. I first used it communicating
from a Win10 machine to a Raspberry Pi.

MikeS wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 21:18, Java Jive wrote:
>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>> install it, and configure it,
>
> That might be a more convincing argument if you had not previously
> described in graphic detail your efforts to botch together a BT hub
> solution using custom firmware and OpenWRT plus assorted overheating USB
> dongles.

The overheating dongles are just that - they have nothing to do with DNS
and how it is resolved.

--
Graham J

Java Jive wrote:
> On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my home
>> network.
>
> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and install
> it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing for itself?
> The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS proves what I was
> saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by most routers is a
> problem.  The correct way to solve that problem is to fix the routers,
> not introduce a source of other potential problems:

But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper local
DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.

Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view? I can see that
it might be "nice to have" but I would not consider spending anything
extra to get it. Having said that, the cost to a router manufacturer
such as Draytek must be trivial given the number of other esoteric
features they do include. Or is there some difficult-to-resolve
conflict here that hasn't occurred to me?

--
Graham J

On 2023-06-27 09:01, Graham J wrote:
> Java Jive wrote:
>> On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my
>>> home
>>> network.
>>
>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>> install it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing
>> for itself? The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS
>> proves what I was saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by
>> most routers is a problem.  The correct way to solve that problem is
>> to fix the routers, not introduce a source of other potential problems:
>
> But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper local
> DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.
>
> Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view?  I can see that
> it might be "nice to have" but I would not consider spending anything
> extra to get it.  Having said that, the cost to a router manufacturer
> such as Draytek must be trivial given the number of other esoteric
> features they do include.  Or is there some difficult-to-resolve
> conflict here that hasn't occurred to me?

What should the DNS do?

Detect automatically the name of computers, and solve them?

Let me see. If I ask my router web page for a map of my LAN, I see it
guesses correctly the name of only one machine, a Linux laptop freshly
installed.

cer@Telcontar:~> host 192.168.2.17 192.168.1.1
;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached

cer@Telcontar:~> host Laicolasse 192.168.1.1
;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached

cer@Telcontar:~>

Well, no resolving at all at the router, there is no DNS server. AFAIK
what my router does is tell computers via dhcp to use the ISP DNS server
instead. No local DNS. Cheaper. A DNS server needs RAM, and RAM is
expensive (!).

The other possibility I can see is manually giving names to the machines
the router see, in a table in the router. Possibly tied to fixed
assignation of LAN IPs. I have never seen that in a home router; I would
use dnsmasq for that, and kill the dhcp server in the router.

Different thing. How to get the name of the machines automatically
known? mDNS? how?

If the router knows the name of that single laptop, I should be able to
configure something on other computers. Maybe open mDNS port. Maybe
making sure that services avahi-daemon and avahi-dnsconfd are running.
Dunno. I know that the command "host" doesn't find that laptop.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 11:05:47 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-06-27 09:01, Graham J wrote:
>> Java Jive wrote:
>>> On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my
>>>> home
>>>> network.
>>>
>>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>>> install it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing
>>> for itself? The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS
>>> proves what I was saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by
>>> most routers is a problem.  The correct way to solve that problem is
>>> to fix the routers, not introduce a source of other potential problems:
>>
>> But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper local
>> DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.
>>
>> Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view?  I can see that
>> it might be "nice to have" but I would not consider spending anything
>> extra to get it.  Having said that, the cost to a router manufacturer
>> such as Draytek must be trivial given the number of other esoteric
>> features they do include.  Or is there some difficult-to-resolve
>> conflict here that hasn't occurred to me?
>
> What should the DNS do?
>
> Detect automatically the name of computers, and solve them?
>
> Let me see. If I ask my router web page for a map of my LAN, I see it
> guesses correctly the name of only one machine, a Linux laptop freshly
> installed.
>
> cer@Telcontar:~> host 192.168.2.17 192.168.1.1
> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>
> cer@Telcontar:~> host Laicolasse 192.168.1.1
> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>
> cer@Telcontar:~>
>
>
>
> Well, no resolving at all at the router, there is no DNS server. AFAIK
> what my router does is tell computers via dhcp to use the ISP DNS server
> instead. No local DNS. Cheaper. A DNS server needs RAM, and RAM is
> expensive (!).
>
>
> The other possibility I can see is manually giving names to the machines
> the router see, in a table in the router. Possibly tied to fixed
> assignation of LAN IPs. I have never seen that in a home router; I would
> use dnsmasq for that, and kill the dhcp server in the router.
>
>
>
> Different thing. How to get the name of the machines automatically
> known? mDNS? how?
>
> If the router knows the name of that single laptop, I should be able to
> configure something on other computers. Maybe open mDNS port. Maybe
> making sure that services avahi-daemon and avahi-dnsconfd are running.
> Dunno. I know that the command "host" doesn't find that laptop.

What works for me is install bind, configure named to know all my nodes ip
address and names, set all nodes to have a common /etd/hosts, and change
/etc/nsswitch.conf

$ diff /var/local/vorig/etc/nsswitch.conf_vorig /etc/nsswitch.conf
64c64,66
< hosts: mdns4_minimal files nis dns mdns4 myhostname
---
> # Changed by /local/bin/nsswitch_changes Mon 02 Jan 12:54 2023
> # hosts: mdns4_minimal files nis dns mdns4 myhostname
> hosts: files dns myhostname

then change router dns resolver to use my named resolver.

$ cat /etc/release
Mageia release 9 (Cauldron) for x86_64

On 27/06/2023 11:53, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 11:05:47 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-06-27 09:01, Graham J wrote:
>>> Java Jive wrote:
>>>> On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my
>>>>> home
>>>>> network.
>>>>
>>>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>>>> install it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing
>>>> for itself? The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS
>>>> proves what I was saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by
>>>> most routers is a problem.  The correct way to solve that problem is
>>>> to fix the routers, not introduce a source of other potential problems:
>>>
>>> But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper local
>>> DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.
>>>
>>> Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view?  I can see that
>>> it might be "nice to have" but I would not consider spending anything
>>> extra to get it.  Having said that, the cost to a router manufacturer
>>> such as Draytek must be trivial given the number of other esoteric
>>> features they do include.  Or is there some difficult-to-resolve
>>> conflict here that hasn't occurred to me?
>>
>> What should the DNS do?
>>
>> Detect automatically the name of computers, and solve them?
>>
>> Let me see. If I ask my router web page for a map of my LAN, I see it
>> guesses correctly the name of only one machine, a Linux laptop freshly
>> installed.
>>
>> cer@Telcontar:~> host 192.168.2.17 192.168.1.1
>> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>>
>> cer@Telcontar:~> host Laicolasse 192.168.1.1
>> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>>
>> cer@Telcontar:~>
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, no resolving at all at the router, there is no DNS server. AFAIK
>> what my router does is tell computers via dhcp to use the ISP DNS server
>> instead. No local DNS. Cheaper. A DNS server needs RAM, and RAM is
>> expensive (!).
>>
>>
>> The other possibility I can see is manually giving names to the machines
>> the router see, in a table in the router. Possibly tied to fixed
>> assignation of LAN IPs. I have never seen that in a home router; I would
>> use dnsmasq for that, and kill the dhcp server in the router.
>>
>>
>>
>> Different thing. How to get the name of the machines automatically
>> known? mDNS? how?
>>
>> If the router knows the name of that single laptop, I should be able to
>> configure something on other computers. Maybe open mDNS port. Maybe
>> making sure that services avahi-daemon and avahi-dnsconfd are running.
>> Dunno. I know that the command "host" doesn't find that laptop.
>
> What works for me is install bind, configure named to know all my nodes ip
> address and names, set all nodes to have a common /etd/hosts, and change
> /etc/nsswitch.conf
>
> $ diff /var/local/vorig/etc/nsswitch.conf_vorig /etc/nsswitch.conf
> 64c64,66
> < hosts: mdns4_minimal files nis dns mdns4 myhostname
> ---
>> # Changed by /local/bin/nsswitch_changes Mon 02 Jan 12:54 2023
>> # hosts: mdns4_minimal files nis dns mdns4 myhostname
>> hosts: files dns myhostname
>
> then change router dns resolver to use my named resolver.
>
>
> $ cat /etc/release
> Mageia release 9 (Cauldron) for x86_64
>
This alleged DNS issue is a mystery to me as I have never noticed it.

I am using a bog standard BT HomeHub6 with various devices connected. A
quick check of the web UI shows all with correct name, IP and MAC. All
names are obtained from the devices some of which were default, others I
edited (on each device).

On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 12:58:31 +0100, MikeS wrote:
> On 27/06/2023 11:53, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 11:05:47 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-27 09:01, Graham J wrote:
>>>> Java Jive wrote:
>>>>> On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my
>>>>>> home
>>>>>> network.
>>>>>
>>>>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>>>>> install it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing
>>>>> for itself? The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS
>>>>> proves what I was saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by
>>>>> most routers is a problem.  The correct way to solve that problem is
>>>>> to fix the routers, not introduce a source of other potential problems:
>>>>
>>>> But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper local
>>>> DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view?  I can see that
>>>> it might be "nice to have" but I would not consider spending anything
>>>> extra to get it.  Having said that, the cost to a router manufacturer
>>>> such as Draytek must be trivial given the number of other esoteric
>>>> features they do include.  Or is there some difficult-to-resolve
>>>> conflict here that hasn't occurred to me?
>>>
>>> What should the DNS do?
>>>
>>> Detect automatically the name of computers, and solve them?
>>>
>>> Let me see. If I ask my router web page for a map of my LAN, I see it
>>> guesses correctly the name of only one machine, a Linux laptop freshly
>>> installed.
>>>
>>> cer@Telcontar:~> host 192.168.2.17 192.168.1.1
>>> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>>>
>>> cer@Telcontar:~> host Laicolasse 192.168.1.1
>>> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>>>
>>> cer@Telcontar:~>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, no resolving at all at the router, there is no DNS server. AFAIK
>>> what my router does is tell computers via dhcp to use the ISP DNS server
>>> instead. No local DNS. Cheaper. A DNS server needs RAM, and RAM is
>>> expensive (!).
>>>
>>>
>>> The other possibility I can see is manually giving names to the machines
>>> the router see, in a table in the router. Possibly tied to fixed
>>> assignation of LAN IPs. I have never seen that in a home router; I would
>>> use dnsmasq for that, and kill the dhcp server in the router.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Different thing. How to get the name of the machines automatically
>>> known? mDNS? how?
>>>
>>> If the router knows the name of that single laptop, I should be able to
>>> configure something on other computers. Maybe open mDNS port. Maybe
>>> making sure that services avahi-daemon and avahi-dnsconfd are running.
>>> Dunno. I know that the command "host" doesn't find that laptop.
>>
>> What works for me is install bind, configure named to know all my nodes ip
>> address and names, set all nodes to have a common /etd/hosts, and change
>> /etc/nsswitch.conf
>>
>> $ diff /var/local/vorig/etc/nsswitch.conf_vorig /etc/nsswitch.conf
>> 64c64,66
>> < hosts: mdns4_minimal files nis dns mdns4 myhostname
>> ---
>>> # Changed by /local/bin/nsswitch_changes Mon 02 Jan 12:54 2023
>>> # hosts: mdns4_minimal files nis dns mdns4 myhostname
>>> hosts: files dns myhostname
>>
>> then change router dns resolver to use my named resolver.
>>
>>
>> $ cat /etc/release
>> Mageia release 9 (Cauldron) for x86_64
>>
> This alleged DNS issue is a mystery to me as I have never noticed it.
>
> I am using a bog standard BT HomeHub6 with various devices connected. A
> quick check of the web UI shows all with correct name, IP and MAC. All
> names are obtained from the devices some of which were default, others I
> edited (on each device).

That is a feature of the dhcp server in the router or dhcp server on your lan.
Devices provides name/mac and ask for a lease. dhcp server then provides
device with gateway, ip address and time to renew lease.

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> writes:

> But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper
> local DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.
>
> Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view?

Well, I like to have a local name server in my LAN and to me it makes
sense for the router to do that.

I haven't found commercial routers I like much. And it seems some of
them like to violate the GPL like it's nothing. Which I guess it is if
there's no one to enforce it.

Since I couldn't find a router I liked, I got an APU4D4 board and case
from Swiss outfit PC Engines and put Debian Linux on it. But looks like
that's a dead end now too, these router boards are going out of
production and redesigns are not planned. Shame, it's a 6-10W fanless
design. Was a little old fashioned already when I got mine during the
pandemic but nothing major.

Maybe next time will have to be something like the refurb Lenovo M625Q I
bought recently for 50 euros. It has only one ethernet socket but
otherwise nice and cheap for what it is. I think Servethehome has had a
whole series of reviews on these kind of computers but what they have
reviewed seemed fairly expensive. They call these TinyMiniMicros if I
remember correctly.

On 27/06/2023 08:01, Graham J wrote:
> Java Jive wrote:
>> On 26/06/2023 18:56, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>> Is this a real problem though? mDNS seems to solve the problem on my
>>> home
>>> network.
>>
>> But why should you have to resort to a third party service, and
>> install it, and configure it, to do what the router should be doing
>> for itself? The very *existence* of third party services like mDNS
>> proves what I was saying, that the lack of proper local DNS support by
>> most routers is a problem.  The correct way to solve that problem is
>> to fix the routers, not introduce a source of other potential problems:
>
> But presumably router manufacturers do not see a demand for proper local
> DNS support which is why it doesn't generally exist.

Because their products are aimed mostly at two markets, businesses that
have their own DNS servers, homes that use mostly or only Windows
machines, and in neither of those two situations, for the reasons
already given, is the lack of proper local DNS so much of a problem.
It's only a minority, but possibly a significant one nevertheless, who
need local DNS for Linux machines that notice the problem.

> Have you ever found anybody else who shares your view?

Well, a brief search of my sent folder over the last few years found the
following threads here and elsewhere which weren't started by me, and
these were just the ones I noticed and bothered to reply to ...

Are there any VDSL routers out there that do proper DHCP/DNS with names?

Routers with USB3 port and SMB2 or (better) SMB3 - are there any?

.... so it's not just me that has noticed the problem. Remembering that
these posts are being copied to a Linux group, are you going to claim
that Linux users are an unimportant minority :-)

But the real point is that, as proven by open builds such as OpenWRT and
DD-WRT, it would be trivially simple for routers to implement this
properly, it just needs the will to do it, and I for one am exasperated
by the perennial failures to do it.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 27/06/2023 12:58, MikeS wrote:
>
> This alleged DNS issue is a mystery to me as I have never noticed it.
>
> I am using a bog standard BT HomeHub6 with various devices connected. A
> quick check of the web UI shows all with correct name, IP and MAC. All
> names are obtained from the devices some of which were default, others I
> edited (on each device).

Do you use a Linux PC with NFS networking? That's a rhetorical question
because the answer is obviously not, otherwise you'd certainly notice
the problem and have had to have solved it in some way, usually by
editing the 'hosts' file.

Just because you haven't experienced this problem doesn't mean that it
doesn't exist. Linux may only be 3% of the global market PC share, but
that still means a hell of a lot of people across the world are getting
unnecessary problems because router manufacturers seem only to test
their kit with Windows PCs.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk