On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
> >>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
> >>>>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
> >>>>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
> >>>>>>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
> >>>>>>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
> >>>>>>>>>> etc.)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This is the APC widget mentioned:
> >>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
> >>>>>>>> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
> >>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
> >>>>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
> >>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
> >>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
> >>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
> >>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
> >>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
> >>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
> >>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
> >>>>>> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
> >>>>>> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
> >>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
> >>>>>> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
> >>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
> >>>>>> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
> >>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
> >>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
> >>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
> >>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
> >>>>>> "unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
> >>>>>> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
> >>>>>> that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
> >>>>>> documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
> >>>>>> device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
> >>>>>> specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
> >>>>>> us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
> >>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
> >>>>>> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
> >>>>>> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
> >>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
> >>>>>> to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
> >>>>>> to be reading your posts, here?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
> >>>>>> in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
> >>>>>> other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
> >>>>>> /with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
> >>>>>> to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
> >>>>>> of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
> >>>>>> good assumption about the intent of the product and the
> >>>>>> logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
> >>>>>> only examination required was trying to deduce the
> >>>>>> connections to the power connector and the associated
> >>>>>> voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
> >>>>>> be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
> >>>> You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
> >>>> pin is the output".
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow, can a person get any denser?
> >>>
> >>> No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
> >>>> Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
> >>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
> >>>>
> >>>> Surely you should be able to answer this question!
> >>>
> >>> What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
> >> Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
> >> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
> >> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
> >> into boxes!
> >>
> >> It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
> >> for you, eh?
> >
> > Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.
> "Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and
> dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:39:06 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 3/26/2023 7:28 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>> Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.
> >>>> And you apparently do neither. <frown>
> >>>
> >>> You seem to have gone off the weird end. I wish GG had a kill file feature. At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers. You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do.
> >> Says a guy who spawned a 2.5 month long thread OVER A PINOUT!
> >>
> >> Wow! I wonder how long the thread will be about power supply voltages....
> >
> > What is the power supply voltage?
> Blue. No, maybe a light shade of violet.

Indeed. I think you are learning... rather slowly, but learning nonetheless.

--

Rick C.

++--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 3/27/2023 3:24 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
>>>>>>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
>>>>>>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
>>>>>>>>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is the APC widget mentioned:
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
>>>>>>>>>> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
>>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
>>>>>>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
>>>>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
>>>>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
>>>>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
>>>>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
>>>>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
>>>>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
>>>>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
>>>>>>>> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
>>>>>>>> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
>>>>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
>>>>>>>> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
>>>>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
>>>>>>>> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
>>>>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
>>>>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
>>>>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
>>>>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
>>>>>>>> "unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
>>>>>>>> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
>>>>>>>> that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
>>>>>>>> documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
>>>>>>>> device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
>>>>>>>> specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
>>>>>>>> us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
>>>>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
>>>>>>>> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
>>>>>>>> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
>>>>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
>>>>>>>> to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
>>>>>>>> to be reading your posts, here?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
>>>>>>>> in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
>>>>>>>> other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
>>>>>>>> /with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
>>>>>>>> to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
>>>>>>>> of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
>>>>>>>> good assumption about the intent of the product and the
>>>>>>>> logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
>>>>>>>> only examination required was trying to deduce the
>>>>>>>> connections to the power connector and the associated
>>>>>>>> voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
>>>>>>>> be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
>>>>>> You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
>>>>>> pin is the output".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, can a person get any denser?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
>>>>>> Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
>>>>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surely you should be able to answer this question!
>>>>>
>>>>> What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
>>>> Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
>>>> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
>>>> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
>>>> into boxes!
>>>>
>>>> It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
>>>> for you, eh?
>>>
>>> Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.
>> "Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and
>> dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!
>
> You continue to not understand the application, yet you feel qualified to recommend solutions. Yes, you are very much the sort of consultant that gives the group as a whole, a bad name.
>
>
>> Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
>>> Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.
>> I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
>
> I can't waste your time. That is entirely up to you. I'm finding the rather entertaining. Nothing technical arising from the discussion with you, but at this point, it's exploring your compulsive responses to everything I post.

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:37:02 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/27/2023 3:24 PM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
> >>>>>>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> etc.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> This is the APC widget mentioned:
> >>>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
> >>>>>>>>>> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
> >>>>>>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
> >>>>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
> >>>>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
> >>>>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
> >>>>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
> >>>>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
> >>>>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
> >>>>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
> >>>>>>>> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
> >>>>>>>> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
> >>>>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
> >>>>>>>> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
> >>>>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
> >>>>>>>> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
> >>>>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
> >>>>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
> >>>>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
> >>>>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
> >>>>>>>> "unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
> >>>>>>>> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
> >>>>>>>> that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
> >>>>>>>> documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
> >>>>>>>> device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
> >>>>>>>> specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
> >>>>>>>> us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
> >>>>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
> >>>>>>>> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
> >>>>>>>> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
> >>>>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
> >>>>>>>> to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
> >>>>>>>> to be reading your posts, here?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
> >>>>>>>> in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
> >>>>>>>> other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
> >>>>>>>> /with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
> >>>>>>>> to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
> >>>>>>>> of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
> >>>>>>>> good assumption about the intent of the product and the
> >>>>>>>> logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
> >>>>>>>> only examination required was trying to deduce the
> >>>>>>>> connections to the power connector and the associated
> >>>>>>>> voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
> >>>>>>>> be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
> >>>>>> You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
> >>>>>> pin is the output".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wow, can a person get any denser?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
> >>>>>> Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
> >>>>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Surely you should be able to answer this question!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
> >>>> Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
> >>>> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
> >>>> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
> >>>> into boxes!
> >>>>
> >>>> It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
> >>>> for you, eh?
> >>>
> >>> Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.
> >> "Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and
> >> dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!
> >
> > You continue to not understand the application, yet you feel qualified to recommend solutions. Yes, you are very much the sort of consultant that gives the group as a whole, a bad name.
> >
> >
> >> Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
> >>> Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.
> >> I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
> >
> > I can't waste your time. That is entirely up to you. I'm finding the rather entertaining. Nothing technical arising from the discussion with you, but at this point, it's exploring your compulsive responses to everything I post.
> I'm enjoying showing others your silliness. I seem to be doing a pretty good
> job at it!

On 3/27/2023 3:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:39:06 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:28 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>> Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.
>>>>>> And you apparently do neither. <frown>
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to have gone off the weird end. I wish GG had a kill file feature. At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers. You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do.
>>>> Says a guy who spawned a 2.5 month long thread OVER A PINOUT!
>>>>
>>>> Wow! I wonder how long the thread will be about power supply voltages...
>>>
>>> What is the power supply voltage?
>> Blue. No, maybe a light shade of violet.
>
> Indeed. I think you are learning... rather slowly, but learning nonetheless.

Yes, learning that your questions are of little substance -- easily
dismissable.

Wonder what others will think of your FUTURE questions?

On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of
>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
>>
>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
>>>
>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
>>
>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT SOMEONE HERE
>> to have that information.
>
> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
>
>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
>
> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question. It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the realization that the question could not be answered, which was the point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.

Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!

On 3/27/2023 3:37 PM, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:37:02 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/27/2023 3:24 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the APC widget mentioned:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
>>>>>>>>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
>>>>>>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
>>>>>>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
>>>>>>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
>>>>>>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
>>>>>>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
>>>>>>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
>>>>>>>>>> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
>>>>>>>>>> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
>>>>>>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
>>>>>>>>>> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
>>>>>>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
>>>>>>>>>> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
>>>>>>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
>>>>>>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
>>>>>>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
>>>>>>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
>>>>>>>>>> "unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
>>>>>>>>>> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
>>>>>>>>>> that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
>>>>>>>>>> documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
>>>>>>>>>> device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
>>>>>>>>>> specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
>>>>>>>>>> us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
>>>>>>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
>>>>>>>>>> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
>>>>>>>>>> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
>>>>>>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
>>>>>>>>>> to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
>>>>>>>>>> to be reading your posts, here?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
>>>>>>>>>> in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
>>>>>>>>>> other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
>>>>>>>>>> /with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
>>>>>>>>>> to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
>>>>>>>>>> of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
>>>>>>>>>> good assumption about the intent of the product and the
>>>>>>>>>> logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
>>>>>>>>>> only examination required was trying to deduce the
>>>>>>>>>> connections to the power connector and the associated
>>>>>>>>>> voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
>>>>>>>>>> be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
>>>>>>>> You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
>>>>>>>> pin is the output".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wow, can a person get any denser?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
>>>>>>>> Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
>>>>>>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Surely you should be able to answer this question!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
>>>>>> Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
>>>>>> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
>>>>>> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
>>>>>> into boxes!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
>>>>>> for you, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.
>>>> "Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and
>>>> dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!
>>>
>>> You continue to not understand the application, yet you feel qualified to recommend solutions. Yes, you are very much the sort of consultant that gives the group as a whole, a bad name.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
>>>>> Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.
>>>> I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
>>>
>>> I can't waste your time. That is entirely up to you. I'm finding the rather entertaining. Nothing technical arising from the discussion with you, but at this point, it's exploring your compulsive responses to everything I post.
>> I'm enjoying showing others your silliness. I seem to be doing a pretty good
>> job at it!
>
> Yeah, you are good at your job I guess. Does it pay much?

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 0:05:07 UTC+2, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

> Which is exactly the point. YOU can't answer the question, because there is not adequate information. It has been all this time that you've been spouting about DCE/DTE and convention this and all manner of formality, which is of ZERO value, because the board is not documented as to whether it's DTE or DCE wired!

Don't want to disturb your argument, but:

If it has a male connector, it's most likely DTE wired, if it has a female one, it's most likely DCE wired.
There's a ~3% chance that this guess is wrong, but whoever designs comms equipment has heard about RS-232, DCEs and DTEs, and tries to get things straight...

[snip]

On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
>>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
>>>
>>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
>>>>
>>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
>>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
>>>
>>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
>>> SOMEONE HERE
>>> to have that information.
>>
>> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
>>
>>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
>>
>> What board?  The one with insufficient information?  No, but you still
>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
>> board.  But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
>
> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
> I'm so glad you admitted that!  I'm sure people will keep
> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
> future questions that you pose!

I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.

Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
> > On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
> >>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
> >>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
> >>>
> >>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
> >>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
> >>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
> >>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
> >>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
> >>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
> >>>>
> >>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
> >>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
> >>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
> >>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
> >>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
> >>>
> >>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
> >>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
> >>> SOMEONE HERE
> >>> to have that information.
> >>
> >> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
> >>
> >>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
> >>
> >> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
> >> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
> >> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
> >> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
> >> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
> >> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
> >> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
> >
> > Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
> > I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
> > that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
> > future questions that you pose!
> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
>
> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.

Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.

Whatever...

--

Rick C.

++-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:17:47 PM UTC-4, b...@gmx.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 0:05:07 UTC+2, Rick C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> [snip]
> > Which is exactly the point. YOU can't answer the question, because there is not adequate information. It has been all this time that you've been spouting about DCE/DTE and convention this and all manner of formality, which is of ZERO value, because the board is not documented as to whether it's DTE or DCE wired!
> Don't want to disturb your argument, but:
>
> If it has a male connector, it's most likely DTE wired, if it has a female one, it's most likely DCE wired.
> There's a ~3% chance that this guess is wrong, but whoever designs comms equipment has heard about RS-232, DCEs and DTEs, and tries to get things straight...

I'm curious, how did you arrive at the 3% figure? I've read that 78.4% of all statistics are made up. In my experience, there is little correlation of connector gender and pin configuration.

You are making the same mistake that Don has been making all along... *assumptions*. Nothing I'm talking about is comms equipment. That was one of my first comments about the issue, that RS-232 defines the connectors at ONE POINT in a comms system, the connectors and pin out of the DTE and DCE ON the DCE unit. It says nothing about what connectors are on the other end of the cable (or their pin out) and it says nothing about how devices are connected when they are not DCE/DTE. *This* is why RS-232 is a mess as a general purpose interconnect.

That's why using the terms TXD and RXD tell you nothing about the direction of the signals. Most of the time, there is no DTE or DCE. So the connectors are not actually the part of the spec that is used. What is used, is the voltage levels, and possibly the connector, but with no guidance to indicate if TXD is input or output, because there's no DCE or DTE.

That's why I always look for an indication of input and output, rather than focusing on the parts of the RS-232 standard that are likely not being used. That was my point, when I kept asking which was input and which was output. It took Don several exchanges to figure out that he could not say, and I'm not sure if, even now, he understands that was why I was asking. I don't need the answer, because I'm not using that board. I was trying to make it obvious, that it was not documented, and so could not be found from the info available, regardless of all the DCE/DTE hoolah.

--

Rick C.

++-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
>>>>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
>>>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
>>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
>>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
>>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
>>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
>>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
>>>>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
>>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
>>>>> SOMEONE HERE
>>>>> to have that information.
>>>>
>>>> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
>>>>
>>>>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
>>>>
>>>> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
>>>
>>> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
>>> I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
>>> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
>>> future questions that you pose!
>> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
>> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
>> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
>> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
>>
>> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
>
> Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.

I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.

I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> >> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
> >>> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
> >>>>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
> >>>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
> >>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
> >>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
> >>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
> >>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
> >>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
> >>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
> >>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
> >>>>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
> >>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
> >>>>> SOMEONE HERE
> >>>>> to have that information.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
> >>>>
> >>>> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
> >>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
> >>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
> >>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
> >>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
> >>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
> >>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
> >>>
> >>> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
> >>> I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
> >>> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
> >>> future questions that you pose!
> >> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
> >> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
> >> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
> >> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
> >> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
> >>
> >> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
> >
> > Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
> I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
> discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
>
> I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display..

Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.

I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.

Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly understand the issues.

--

Rick C.

+++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 28/03/23 14:41, Rick C wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
>>>>>>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
>>>>>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
>>>>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
>>>>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
>>>>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
>>>>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
>>>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
>>>>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
>>>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
>>>>>>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
>>>>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
>>>>>>> SOMEONE HERE
>>>>>>> to have that information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
>>>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
>>>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
>>>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
>>>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
>>>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
>>>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
>>>>> I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
>>>>> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
>>>>> future questions that you pose!
>>>> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
>>>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
>>>> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
>>>> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
>>>> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
>>>>
>>>> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
>>>
>>> Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
>> I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
>> discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
>>
>> I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.
>
> Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
>
> I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
>
> Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly understand the issues.
>

It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
exactly the way you seem unable to.

On 3/27/2023 4:36 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:

>> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
>> I'm so glad you admitted that!  I'm sure people will keep
>> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
>> future questions that you pose!
>
> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him from
> receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own incapacities...
> even the excellent and succinct feedback from David Brown. I suspect it's a
> flavour of autism.
>
> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.

He's far too busy to answer -- working on those million dollar
deals (yet nickel and diming people for free engineering services!).

Gotta wonder what answering these posts is costing him in terms of
lost opportunities! Probably another million dollar deal -- or two!

(sigh) Some people are just slow learners. Imagine all the trouble
he's gonna have when he advances from RS232 to HDLC/SDLC to Token Ring
to Ethernet!

And, I shudder to think how he'll make the emotional adjustment to *wireless*!

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 28/03/23 14:41, Rick C wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> >> On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
> >>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> >>>> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
> >>>>>>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
> >>>>>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
> >>>>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
> >>>>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
> >>>>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
> >>>>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
> >>>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
> >>>>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
> >>>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
> >>>>>>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
> >>>>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
> >>>>>>> SOMEONE HERE
> >>>>>>> to have that information.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
> >>>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question..
> >>>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
> >>>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
> >>>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
> >>>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
> >>>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
> >>>>> I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
> >>>>> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
> >>>>> future questions that you pose!
> >>>> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
> >>>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
> >>>> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
> >>>> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
> >>>> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
> >>>
> >>> Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
> >> I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
> >> discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
> >>
> >> I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.
> >
> > Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
> >
> > I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
> >
> > Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly understand the issues.
> >
> It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
> you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
> decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
> encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
> errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
> exactly the way you seem unable to.

Still misunderstanding the conversation. I wasn't asking for help with the RS-232 signals. Never was. I was trying to make a point that the RS-232 interface circuit did not document the I/O well enough to know which was input and which was output.

Even though I've explained this several times now, some people aren't getting it.

--

Rick C.

+++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2023-03-28, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01???AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> > Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
>> >
>> > I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
>> >
>> > Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly understand the issues.
>> >
>> It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
>> you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
>> decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
>> encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
>> errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
>> exactly the way you seem unable to.
>
> Still misunderstanding the conversation. I wasn't asking for help
> with the RS-232 signals. Never was. I was trying to make a point
> that the RS-232 interface circuit did not document the I/O well enough
> to know which was input and which was output.
>
> Even though I've explained this several times now, some people aren't
> getting it.

Maybe you didn't explain it well enough. Or maybe you attempted
sarcasm/irony/innuendo/whatever and it failed :-)
You wouldn't know would you :-)

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 4:00:54 PM UTC-4, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2023-03-28, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01???AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> >> > Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
> >> >
> >> > I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
> >> >
> >> > Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly understand the issues.
> >> >
> >> It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
> >> you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
> >> decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
> >> encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
> >> errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
> >> exactly the way you seem unable to.
> >
> > Still misunderstanding the conversation. I wasn't asking for help
> > with the RS-232 signals. Never was. I was trying to make a point
> > that the RS-232 interface circuit did not document the I/O well enough
> > to know which was input and which was output.
> >
> > Even though I've explained this several times now, some people aren't
> > getting it.
> Maybe you didn't explain it well enough. Or maybe you attempted
> sarcasm/irony/innuendo/whatever and it failed :-)
> You wouldn't know would you :-)

Obviously it was not explained clearly enough. But sometimes, the audience is simply not able to understand a message, no matter how well explained.

It is interesting that some people are so wrapped around the axle, that they can't stop replying to this thread, even when they have to address me in the third person.

--

Rick C.

++++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
>
> The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
>
> The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
>
> Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
>

The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro
https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"

--
Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 ---------

On 29/03/23 02:37, Rick C wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>> On 28/03/23 14:41, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>> On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
>>>>>>>>> -------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
>>>>>>>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
>>>>>>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
>>>>>>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
>>>>>>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
>>>>>>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
>>>>>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
>>>>>>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
>>>>>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
>>>>>>>>> And my answer fits that dfescription.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
>>>>>>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
>>>>>>>>> SOMEONE HERE
>>>>>>>>> to have that information.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you think one of us designed the board?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
>>>>>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
>>>>>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
>>>>>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
>>>>>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
>>>>>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
>>>>>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
>>>>>>> I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
>>>>>>> that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
>>>>>>> future questions that you pose!
>>>>>> I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
>>>>>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
>>>>>> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
>>>>>> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
>>>>>> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
>>>> I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
>>>> discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
>>>>
>>>> I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.
>>>
>>> Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
>>>
>>> I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
>>>
>>> Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly understand the issues.
>>>
>> It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
>> you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
>> decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
>> encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
>> errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
>> exactly the way you seem unable to.
>
> Still misunderstanding the conversation

It's not possible to misunderstand something I haven't read.

I just came late to observe the interpersonal argy-bargy your feisty
incompetence *always* creates. Seriously mate, take a long hard took at
yourself. This is not about RS-232 (which has always been badly
designed, implemented, documented, and misunderstood - a fact we've all
known for decades). It's about you.

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 4:53:51 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
> >
> > The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
> >
> > The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
> >
> > Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
> >
>
> The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro
> https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
> and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"

Thank you for the link. I can't find a way to use English on the site. itsco.com brings up an english version of the site, but it doesn't seem to include any equipment sales. Maybe it's not the same company?

I see companies selling these on Ebay. Do you know if they will boot up and operate with no keyboard, mouse or video connected? I would run these on Linux and they would have to boot stand alone.

--

Rick C.

+++++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2023-03-29 2:12, Rick C wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 4:53:51 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
>> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more
>>> convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports.
>>> One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no
>>> handshaking.
>>>
>>> The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50
>>> chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines
>>> and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There
>>> are parameters set when starting operation.
>>>
>>> The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in
>>> a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google
>>> hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't
>>> useful.
>>>
>>> Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted
>>> out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino
>>> nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start
>>> over from scratch.
>>>
>>
>> The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro
>> https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
>>
>>
>> and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"
>
> Thank you for the link. I can't find a way to use English on the
> site. itsco.com brings up an english version of the site, but it
> doesn't seem to include any equipment sales. Maybe it's not the same
> company?
>
> I see companies selling these on Ebay. Do you know if they will boot
> up and operate with no keyboard, mouse or video connected? I would
> run these on Linux and they would have to boot stand alone.

One of the customer reviews on the site says "Das Ganze wird am LAN ohne
Monitor, Tastatur und Maus betrieben" = "All of it runs on LAN without
video, keyboard and mouse", under Debian 11. I would assume that also
means it can boot up in that configuration, but the review does not say
that explicitly.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 2:07:03 AM UTC-4, Niklas Holsti wrote:
> On 2023-03-29 2:12, Rick C wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 4:53:51 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
> >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more
> >>> convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports.
> >>> One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no
> >>> handshaking.
> >>>
> >>> The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50
> >>> chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines
> >>> and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There
> >>> are parameters set when starting operation.
> >>>
> >>> The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in
> >>> a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google
> >>> hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't
> >>> useful.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted
> >>> out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino
> >>> nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start
> >>> over from scratch.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro
> >> https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
> >>
> >>
> >> and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"
> >
> > Thank you for the link. I can't find a way to use English on the
> > site. itsco.com brings up an english version of the site, but it
> > doesn't seem to include any equipment sales. Maybe it's not the same
> > company?
> >
> > I see companies selling these on Ebay. Do you know if they will boot
> > up and operate with no keyboard, mouse or video connected? I would
> > run these on Linux and they would have to boot stand alone.
> One of the customer reviews on the site says "Das Ganze wird am LAN ohne
> Monitor, Tastatur und Maus betrieben" = "All of it runs on LAN without
> video, keyboard and mouse", under Debian 11. I would assume that also
> means it can boot up in that configuration, but the review does not say
> that explicitly.

Thanks again. I will consider these. I found them on Ebay and other sites at similar prices. It seems there are variants with different I/O, including no serial ports. So, I'll have to be careful to check that.

I still prefer a system with no OS and low power. So the Arduino or rPi Pico is my preferred option at the moment. But those need cases. I guess the vast majority of such small units are sold for amateur use, where a case is not important. I believe they sell a version of the rPi for commercial use with have some level of assurance of continuing supply. I might want to look at that harder, but again, there's not as much support for operation without an OS.

I took a look at the Forth tools available for the AVR. Other than Forth Inc. the supply is very limited. The ARM, of course, has wide support. But this program is so simple, it could be written in any language, without concern. I'm just much more familiar with Forth these days.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.

The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.

The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.

Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out,
> if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but
> some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from
> scratch.

There's about a gazillion industrial computers that do this, though they
are probably overkill and more expensive than one would prefer. This
one is on the front page of cnx-software right now:

https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/01/17/edatec-cm4-sensing-industrial-computer-offers-can-bus-rs485-and-rs232-interfaces/

Note that most of the boxed computers on that blog are quite powerful,
more than you need for this:

https://www.cnx-software.com/news/industrial

You could try a more general web search for "industrial embedded
computer" if that is the sort of thing you want. Do you need the box to
come from a real manufacturer with customer support? Is the idea to
deploy a moderate number of these, say dozens? A much larger number?
Or is it basically a one-off?

If characters are coming in at the full speed of the 9600 bps port, and
going out at the same speed, and more characters are going out than
coming in (because of the headers being added), how is this supposed to
work with no flow control?

Regarding the programming, if it is just as you describe, there is not
much to it, I would have thought.

If there is only one input port to this box, why use a box at all,
rather than have the sensor emit the header every 20 lines?