On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:01:15 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>Newsgroups:
>alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>
>>I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>
>I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting
>
>
>
>On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 00:57:49 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ug81aid5gs5tp08sfit9l94m678l0ba1fe@4ax.com> at Sat, 1 Jul
>>2023 15:39:51, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>>>On Sat, 1 Jul 2023 11:52:39 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <ehgv9itu33j66skdl2mudjqdfd5hogq3bd@4ax.com> at Sat, 1 Jul
>>>>2023 01:09:20, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> writes
>>[]
>>>>>a schedule, I was creating backups about once or twice per decade*,
>>>>>which probably isn't often enough to be useful.
>>>>
>>>>No - in the event of hardware failure, image unlikely to be of use as
>>>>unlikely to be able to find hardware to which the OS (and all software)
>>>
>>>That depends on what hardware has failed. If the whole computer is
>>>replaced, I agree, but if it's just a single component, that may or
>>>may not be the case.
>>>
>>Very true.
>>[]
>>>What I've been thinking about doing is using one of my two internal
>>>backup drives that are being backed up by Bart and instead use it to
>>>backup an image (or clone? Is one a better choice than the other?) of
>>
>>Each has its advantages. If it's a clone, assuming it's been made
>>correctly and whatever takes out your C: drive doesn't also take out the
>>drive you're cloning to (that of course is a concern for imaging too!),
>>then in the event, you can just switch the drivers over and be back up
>>in minutes
>
>Yes, but only if you've cloned to an internal drive.
>
>However that wouldn't be the case for me, since my drive is an M2 SSD
>and I would clone it to a spinner. I'd want to keep C: on the M2. The
>M2 and spinners are also two different sizes.
>
>So if I cloned it and C: died, I would need/want to copy the clone
>back to the M2. How would I do that? Does the free Macrium come with a
>bootable utility that can do that? How about the part-of-the-OS
>utility? Can it do that?
>
>
>
>
>> - the mechanical work of opening the case and fiddling with
>>the connectors and screws probably taking longer than anything else. If
>>imaging, you need to have/obtain the replacement drive, _and_ have
>>something to boot from (CD or USB) that has the necessary software on it
>>(Macrium, Bart?,
>
>No, Bart doesn't do that. It does nothing but just copy files; that's
>fine for D:'s data files, but not for C:. I like Bart because it
>starts with the previous backup, adds any new files, replaces any
>changed files, and deletes any files no longer on the drive being
>backed up. The result is that it's very fast.
>
>>the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>
>
>But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>the size of just the used space?
>
>
>>especially if you keep your C: partition small
>
>It's a 1TB partition with about 100GB used.
>
>I've never imaged or cloned before, so I'm a beginner when it comes to
>this. Am I right that an image would take up 100GB, but a clone would
>take up 1TB? If so, I think, an image would be the better choice for
>me (see below where I talk about keeping multiple generations).
>
>I would image it to a 2TB spinner.
>
>
>>you could even have
>>images for the C: partition of several different machines on it; whereas
>>if cloning, it's obviously just one drive.
>
>
>There's just one machine I'd want to image or clone--my desktop. My
>wife is no longer able to use her desktop, and I have no laptop.
>
>I'd want to have it done with a batch file that would delete the
>current image or clone, and make a new one. Or better, maybe delete
>the one that's two generations old, rename the one that's one
>generation old, and create a new one.
>
>Or considering that the spinner is so much larger than the 100GB used
>for C:, perhaps I could have the batch file keep the three or four
>most recent backups.
>
>And I'd like to have that bat file scheduled to run automatically at
>night once every week or so.
>
>So given my situation, what do you (or anyone else here) think would
>be the better choice for me--image or clone?
>
>
>>>C: Can I do that with a Windows 11 tool, or would Macrium reflect be a
>>>better choice? The advantage of using an internal drive to do that is
>>>that I could have it scheduled to automatically run at a reasonable
>>>frequency, and don't have to remember to do it.
>>
>>I don't know what Windows 11 comes with - there probably _is_ some such
>>utility, since I think there was/is even with 7. I just find Macrium
>>easier - plus, I feel a slight greater ease in having something other
>>than the OS do it.
>
>Just curious, why?
>
>> Although I always do my imaging (I image rather than
>>clone)
>
>Just curious, why?
>
>
>>by booting from the Macrium CD, Macrium _can_ run (at least the
>>imaging/cloning part; obviously not the restoring!) from within Windows.
>>(I don't, as I feel uneasy backing up a running system.)
>
>Just curious, why? Is there a risk in doing that that I'm not aware
>of?
>
>> I'm pretty sure
>>the part-of-the-OS utility can be run from within Windows too.
>
>Can some who knows "the part-of-the-OS utility" for Windows 11 jump in
>here and provide some more information? What's its name? Can it be run
>from within Windows? How does it compare to Macrium Reflect? Can it do
>either an image or a clone? Given my situation described about, which
>would be a better choice for me--Macrium Reflect or the part-of-the-OS
>utility.
>
>Again, I'm a newbie when it comes to imaging and cloning, so I would
>greatly appreciate any additional help from you, John, or anyone else
>here who knows more about this than I do,
>
>>>
>>>Yes, an internal drive for backup isn't as safe as an eternal drive,
>>>but as far as I'm concerned, that's much more important for data files
>>>than for C: If I lost all my data files on D, that would be a
>>>catastrophe, but if I lost everything on C: without a backup, it would
>>>be a pain in the ass (arse), but I'd survive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've correctly read what a web search
found, Windows Backup can not back up to an internal drive. So I'll
rule that out as a possibility and look into the free Macrium Reflect.

>>I often hear US folk talking about their tax affairs in this respect,
>>and I understand. (The _majority_ of UK folk - certainly those employed
>>by an employer - don't _do_ tax returns most years.)
>
>My taxes have become much more complicated in recent years. I used to
>do it myself with TurboTax, but I now have an accountant do it for me.
>But I do need my Quicken files to supply data for the accountant,
>
>
>>>All thoughts about what I currently do and my plans for what I'll do
>>>in the future, and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>>backup of D: once a month. With the amount of work I've been putting
>>>>into my genealogy lately,
>>>
>>>I have no genealogical records. I have four living relatives, as far
>>>as I know (one son, one grandson, one first cousin, one second cousin)
>>>and I remember only seven dead relatives--mother, father, two aunts,
>>>one first cousin once removed, one maternal grandmother, and maternal
>>>grandfather--so I have no interest in knowing more about people who I
>>>met at most only a handful of times, and don't remember at all.
>>
>>Well, it's a hobby
>
>Yes, of course. I understand that. I was simply pointing out why I
>wouldn't find it a hobby of any interest. I don't want to start
>finding third cousins and introducing myself to them.
>
>My paternal grandparents must have seen me when I was an infant, but I
>have no memory of ever meeting them; my parents were divorced when I
>was two. I didn't even know their names until a friend who was an
>expert in genealogy found them for me .I didn't even know how to spell
>"genealogy" before then.
>
>>- I'm sure many of us have a similar hobby that
>>involves a lot of data we'd hate to lose a few months/weeks/days (select
>>as appropriate) ' work from. (I like finding new cousins, and telling
>>them how they're related to me - sometimes they're interesting people
>>anyway. Same as in any hobby, I suppose.)
>>>
>>>> I've been thinking of setting a _weekly_
>>>>reminder for that (and maybe my email/news files and financial file). I
>>>>might even automate those (with a reminder a few minutes beforehand to
>>>>[a] get out of the prog.s [b] connect the external drive).

On 2023-07-02 17:22, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:01:15 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> wrote:
>
>> From: Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>> Subject: Re: YouTube downloads fail all the time
>> Newsgroups:
>> alt.comp.software.firefox,alt.windows7.general;alt.comp.os.Windows-11
>> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>>
>>> I've added alt.comp.os.Windows-11 to the newsgroups cross-posted to.
>>
>> I screwed up doing that, so I'm reposting

....

>>> the Windows one) to restore from the image. Conversely,
>>> you can probably have a lot more images on most drives these days,
>>
>>
>> But not clones, since they would be the full size of the drive, not
>> the size of just the used space?

Some cloning methods only copy used sectors and skip the rest. Also
compression can be used. Thus the clone can be smaller.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Ken Blake wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've correctly read what a web search
> found, Windows Backup can not back up to an internal drive. So I'll
> rule that out as a possibility and look into the free Macrium Reflect.

It took some effort to wade through the repost with the topic/subject
dissimilar to the thread content and multiple replies.
Might be a better idea to start a new thread with more or well-defined
detail on what you really want/need/desire to accomplish.
- and also not sure why this was cross posted to Firefox and Windows
7(those groups removed from this reply)

For most, unless moving to another device and having a desire to deploy
abd exact copy of a different device o/s and partitions(knowing that
Windows will still have to rebuild a considerable amount to run), then
cloning may not be best choice.
Imaging is usually the preferred route
- Note: Where the data resides is important as well as the type of data.
* Music/Video are normally already compressed thus copying may make
more sense.
* Data files for many programs are typically in the user profile on
the o/s partition, even though the application may/may not use some type
of compression.

i.e. the best choice for image or backup is best done when having a
clear understanding of what should be imaged, and what should be copied
to archival type devices(separate internal or external media or cloud
storage). Likewise, the best advice from anyone follows the same route
- more info = better advice

Imo, it doesn't matter what a web search finds for Windows Backup on
Win11, it's still a designed during Vista and deployed in Win7 era tool.

Plenty of useful free and premium($) backup utilities(image, clone) with
current releases addressing prior issues/weaknesses and updated features.

Macrium Reflect
Free and Premium/$ (note Free versions releases have been
discontinued, patches for security until Jan 2024).
<https://updates.macrium.com/reflect/v8/v8.0.7279/details8.0.7279.htm>
Free Version - last available 8.0.5279 (find on 3rd party hosting sites)
Home(Premium version) - last available 8.1.7544, ~$70 one time
purchase(perpetual use of same version), no upgrades

Easus ToDo Backup
Free versions
13.5 released in Aug 2021
2022 latest(2022) version released Oct 2022
2023 latest(2023) version released May 2023
Premium versions
Perpetual - one time fee, no upgrades, ~$60 US
Lifetime - one time fee, free upgrades, ~$80 US

AOMEI Backupper Standard
Free (latest version 7.2.3)
Pro($) ~$70 one time fee, Lifetime(free upgrade to later versions)

From a use standpoint, premium versions are typically one pc/on license.
Free versions are basically the same, though afaics, some provide links
via an email address for download, thus a different email address on a
different machine may provide use on a different machine)
i.e. read the fine print yada, and as always ymmv.
e.g. One might have multiple email addy's on one or more devices(for
different Windows MSA logons or multiple Local Accounts on a device
and/or install/register with a different email on different devices

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 22:54:51 -0400, "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ken Blake wrote:
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've correctly read what a web search
>> found, Windows Backup can not back up to an internal drive. So I'll
>> rule that out as a possibility and look into the free Macrium Reflect.
>
>It took some effort to wade through the repost with the topic/subject
>dissimilar to the thread content and multiple replies.
>Might be a better idea to start a new thread with more or well-defined
>detail on what you really want/need/desire to accomplish.

And with a better name.

>- and also not sure why this was cross posted to Firefox and Windows
>7(those groups removed from this reply)

Yes, but didn't start the thread.

>For most, unless moving to another device and having a desire to deploy
>abd exact copy of a different device o/s and partitions(knowing that
>Windows will still have to rebuild a considerable amount to run), then
>cloning may not be best choice.
>Imaging is usually the preferred route
> - Note: Where the data resides is important as well as the type of data.
> * Music/Video are normally already compressed thus copying may make
>more sense.
> * Data files for many programs are typically in the user profile on
>the o/s partition, even though the application may/may not use some type
>of compression.
>
>i.e. the best choice for image or backup is best done when having a
>clear understanding of what should be imaged, and what should be copied
>to archival type devices(separate internal or external media or cloud
>storage). Likewise, the best advice from anyone follows the same route
>- more info = better advice
>
>Imo, it doesn't matter what a web search finds for Windows Backup on
>Win11, it's still a designed during Vista and deployed in Win7 era tool.
>
>Plenty of useful free and premium($) backup utilities(image, clone) with
>current releases addressing prior issues/weaknesses and updated features.
>
>Macrium Reflect
> Free and Premium/$ (note Free versions releases have been
>discontinued, patches for security until Jan 2024).
><https://updates.macrium.com/reflect/v8/v8.0.7279/details8.0.7279.htm>
> Free Version - last available 8.0.5279 (find on 3rd party hosting sites)
> Home(Premium version) - last available 8.1.7544, ~$70 one time
>purchase(perpetual use of same version), no upgrades
>
>Easus ToDo Backup
> Free versions
> 13.5 released in Aug 2021
> 2022 latest(2022) version released Oct 2022
> 2023 latest(2023) version released May 2023
> Premium versions
> Perpetual - one time fee, no upgrades, ~$60 US
> Lifetime - one time fee, free upgrades, ~$80 US
>
>
>AOMEI Backupper Standard
> Free (latest version 7.2.3)
> Pro($) ~$70 one time fee, Lifetime(free upgrade to later versions)
>
> From a use standpoint, premium versions are typically one pc/on license.
>Free versions are basically the same, though afaics, some provide links
>via an email address for download, thus a different email address on a
>different machine may provide use on a different machine)
> i.e. read the fine print yada, and as always ymmv.
>e.g. One might have multiple email addy's on one or more devices(for
>different Windows MSA logons or multiple Local Accounts on a device
>and/or install/register with a different email on different devices

Thanks. The thread is pretty much over. I'm going to try imaging with
the free Macrium Reflect when I get the chance. I've been very busy
the last few days, so I don't know when.

On 7/2/2023 11:22 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've correctly read what a web search
> found, Windows Backup can not back up to an internal drive. So I'll
> rule that out as a possibility and look into the free Macrium Reflect.

If you want to have a play with it, you don't need the WB GUI (except if
you want to schedule stuff).

Admin terminal session.

wbadmin start backup /? # Get help with Windows Backup manual backup -- the following are minimal backups so you can boot

******* This session was to the same spindle as the C: drive -- S: is the data partition *******
******* This backup was stopped, because writing to the same spindle is slow and boring ********

PS> WBADMIN START BACKUP -backupTarget:S: -allCritical
wbadmin 1.0 - Backup command-line tool
(C) Copyright Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Retrieving volume information...
This will back up (EFI System Partition),W11HOME(C:),(\\?\Volume{76a399bc-6bb5-411d-83d9-af677d96febc}\) to S:.
Do you want to start the backup operation?
[Y] Yes [N] No y <=== Adding -quiet to the command, removes this prompt

The backup storage location that you selected is on the same physical hard \
disk as your operating system. If the hard disk fails, you may lose both \____ You are warned about "same spindle" ...
your system data and backup data. / But the backup still happens.

The backup operation to S: is starting.
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # EFI
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # Microsoft Reserved 16MB no file system (invisible)
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # C: NTFS
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup... # System Reserved with WinRE.wim emergency boot in it
Creating a backup of volume (EFI System Partition) (100.00 MB), copied (100%). # Just to copy 100MB, took a minute
# I stopped the same-spindle backup here, ctrl-C
# It would have taken all day to finish.

******* This backup is from Disk 1 inside the PC, to Disk 2 inside the PC (different internal spindle) *******
******* This one was allowed to finish. No warning message is issued *******

PS> WBADMIN START BACKUP -backupTarget:D: -allCritical
wbadmin 1.0 - Backup command-line tool
(C) Copyright Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Retrieving volume information...
This will back up (EFI System Partition),W11HOME(C:),(\\?\Volume{76a399bc-6bb5-411d-83d9-af677d96febc}\) to D:.
Do you want to start the backup operation?
[Y] Yes [N] No y

The backup operation to D: is starting.
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
The backup of volume (EFI System Partition) (100.00 MB) completed successfully.
The backup of volume W11HOME(C:) completed successfully.
The backup of volume (646.00 MB) completed successfully.
Summary of the backup operation:
------------------

The backup operation successfully completed.
The backup of volume (EFI System Partition) (100.00 MB) completed successfully.
The backup of volume W11HOME(C:) completed successfully.
The backup of volume (646.00 MB) completed successfully.
Log of files successfully backed up:
C:\WINDOWS\Logs\WindowsBackup\Backup-03-07-2023_12-45-38.log

*******

To stop a wbadmin backup operation which is currently running, there are two steps.

1) Press ctrl-c in the Terminal window. This stops wbadmin.

2) Using Task Manager, locate the running task "wbengine", which is still writing.
End the process. The writing stops. Discard any folders which represent wasted
space on the output volume.

You can add additional partitions to the backup, by naming them in a separate
passed parameter. Consult the help for more details (examples).

WBADMIN START BACKUP -backupTarget:D: -allCritical -include:s:,t:,w: -quiet

That backs up EFI System Partition, C: partition, System Reserved 646MB partition <=== critical to booting
S: T: W: <=== my data partitions

And places them on Disk #2 spindle D: .

*******

You can see that backing up partitions that cannot have drive letters (hidden) is a PITA.
Try and figure out what their example in the help is. Random left-over System Reserved
ones, look like this. I have W11 and W10 on my disk, and two System Reserved partitions.
One of the System Reserved, has to be named using this flavor of syntax.

\\?\Volume{cc566d14-44a0-11d9-9d93-806e6f6e6963}\

The third party utility "dd.exe" can give you those identifiers.

dd --list

This item, is one of the hidden ones on my Disk #1 (belongs to my Windows 10 install).

\\.\Volume{af386bcf-16c0-483f-a84b-b310cc27c8e8}\
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume6 <=== correlate with Disk Management GUI view.
fixed media
Not mounted

*******

The output options are:

1) place backup on same spindle

2) use a second disk inside the computer for output

3) Use an external USB hard drive (the one you put in the wall safe)

4) A File Share on yet another computer. Note that the rules for this
are quite different. The operator must be aware that only one
OS copy can be stored this way, rather than dated folders. And, that
the ACLs must be considered from a security perspective. None of this
is particularly a big deal, for a "Pro" :-) A Linux Grandma could handle
this while stirring a cup of noodles with the other hand. Over on the
File Share, you can "move" the backup to a safe place, to implement your
own dated OS copies (if you want to do monthly backups for a year, it would
be twelve folders of some sort).

If you rename the top-level folder on the file share, to something
descriptive, that will prevent wbadmin from overwriting the single backup.

How they store the output is weirdness, but I don't want to spoil all
the surprises. It's just a series of .vhdx containers. They can't be accessed
by 7-ZIP (the format is not supported), but the individual .vhdx, you can
right-click them and Mount them. Watch in your Disk Management window, with the
window set full sized, to see what the mount looks like. The .vhdx can also be
dis-mounted (you don't have to reboot to get rid of it). When a .vhdx is mounted,
you can use File Explorer to extract your taxes.txt .

Paul