Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.

Any opinions ?

Thanks

KenW

On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:09 -0600, KenW wrote:
>
> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>
> Any opinions ?

It might help if you told us why you're abandoning Macrium Reflect
Free and what features you are looking for in a replacement.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 16:13:40 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:09 -0600, KenW wrote:
>>
>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>
>> Any opinions ?
>
>It might help if you told us why you're abandoning Macrium Reflect
>Free and what features you are looking for in a replacement.

Because Macrium killed it.

KenW

On 9/4/23 20:35, this is what KenW wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 16:13:40 -0700, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:09 -0600, KenW wrote:
>>>
>>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>>
>>> Any opinions ?
>>
>> It might help if you told us why you're abandoning Macrium Reflect
>> Free and what features you are looking for in a replacement.
>
> Because Macrium killed it.
>
>
> KenW
Killed what??? The program, the Christmas tree?
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> KenW wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>
>>It might help if you told us why you're abandoning Macrium Reflect
>>Free and what features you are looking for in a replacement.
>
> Because Macrium killed it.
>
> KenW

Wrong. They discontinued SUPPORT of it. The free version is not going
to self-destruct. It will still run. You can keep using it, or keep
using it until you decide to use something else.

I paid for Reflect payware, because I wanted incremental image backups
to reduce consumption of my drive space. I schedule backups to run
every day: monthly full, weekly differential, and daily incremental.
Not scheduling backup means they won't get done, or be way too old, so a
restore loses a lot of settings, programs, and/or data. Relying on
users to run backups before some major operation, like installing
software or OS updates, pretty much means they don't get done.

As for alternatives, I have used Easeus ToDo (and later paid for the
Workstation version). When I last used their free edition, incrementals
were not included, but apparently they now are. Their comparison grid
says the free editions does full, differential, and incremental backups.

https://www.easeus.com/backup-software/tb-free.html#comparison

Paragon Backup&Restore (where several ex-Macrium employees went, and why
some similar features then showed up in B&R). At some point, Paragon
quit calling it their free version, and went to calling it a community
edition. I didn't dig into their online docs to see which backup types
their community edition supports (full, differentials, incrementals),
and I didn't see obvious mention of backup types at their web site.

https://www.paragon-software.com/us/free/br-free/#

There's also AOMEI BackUpper. I only remember trialing it, but don't
remember why I didn't settle on using it.

https://www.aomeitech.com/ab/standard.html

From what I see there, the free version looks to only do full backups.
Differentials, but the comparison grid say it will do incrementals.
Differentials are based off the prior full backup. Incrementals can be
based off full or differential backups.

Of course, you could do your own online research on alternatives to
Macrium Reflect Free, like:

https://www.google.com/search?q=macrium+reflect+free+alternative

You also have to decide if you want backups in a proprietary file format
(that only the backup software can read), or if you want the files
dumped into a universal file format, like .zip archives. I know someone
here has mentioned Cobian many times, because he wants backup in .zip
file. However, that would only be logical backups instead of image
backups. With image backups, you restore the state of your drive(s)
back to exactly how they were before.

https://www.cobiansoft.com/

I like to restore to an image. For example, I save an incremental
before installing new software. If I decide I don't want it, forget
running its uninstaller. Just restore an image backup to get my drive
back to the same state before the install. No having to cleanup remnant
registry entries and files. Logical restores can easily result in a
mismatched fileset: files that are restored only overwrite the same
files in the same paths, and don't get rid of other files created during
the install or use of the software.

I remember reading about Veeam. They actually produce enterprise-grade
backup solution, so what you get as an end user is the client-only
program. Although they like to mention cloud-based backups, that's for
enterprises that don't want to expend the manpower and money on local
hardware, and contract out that part to someone else. I believe their
client will also save local backups.

https://www.veeam.com/vm-backup-recovery-replication-software.html

Personally I think an enterprise-grade even dumbed down to end users
would likely be beyond anyone not accustomed to being a sysadmin at a
corporation.

Despite all the alternatives, there is no reason or cause for Macrium
Reflect Free to stop working on your current setup. It'll stop working
there because you decided to stop using it and uninstalled it.

I'm still using a long abandoned and long dead NNTP client (40tude
Dialog) to participate in Usenet. That support died 20 years ago didn't
make the program die.

On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:09 -0600, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

>Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>
>Any opinions ?
>
I intend to buy the next version of Reflect.

But ymmv.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 9/4/2023 6:23 PM, KenW wrote:
> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>
> Any opinions ?
>
> Thanks
>
> KenW

My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
They are not time bombed, as far as I know.

If Microsoft makes incompatible changes to NTFS, then
that would be the kind of event which would kick
older versions of Macrium to the curb (We can't use Macrium 5 for
W10 or W11 for example). Thus, it will be
a Microsoft event, that kills off your Free. Rather than
Macrium being evil and doing it.

Offering the Free version was a sales gimmick, one which
they do not feel they need to do any more. They do not
seem to be the kind of people who time bomb software and
make it drop dead somehow. Any sort of evil behavior would
be detrimental to future sales. There are more than twenty
companies making backup software, and it is a competitive
environment, where your reputation as a prick, matters.

*******

Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
Windows offering.

Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.

Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
product to product.

Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
Differential [less wasteful of space]
Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]

Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
"disadvantage" any of their Partners.

Paul

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>
> > Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >
> >> KenW wrote:
> >>
> >>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
> >>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
> >>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
> >>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
> >>
> >>It might help if you told us why you're abandoning Macrium Reflect
> >>Free and what features you are looking for in a replacement.
> >
> > Because Macrium killed it.
> >
> > KenW
>
> Wrong. They discontinued SUPPORT of it. The free version is not going
> to self-destruct. It will still run. You can keep using it, or keep
> using it until you decide to use something else.

Exactly. I will keep using the Free version until it breaks (which, as
Paul mentioned, will mostly likely be the results of a *Microsoft*
change, not Macrium's doing).

*If* it breaks, I might consider the paid version, or try something
else.

[About Reflect and alternatives. Thanks for your info and references.]

> You also have to decide if you want backups in a proprietary file format
> (that only the backup software can read), or if you want the files
> dumped into a universal file format, like .zip archives. I know someone
> here has mentioned Cobian many times, because he wants backup in .zip
> file. However, that would only be logical backups instead of image
> backups. With image backups, you restore the state of your drive(s)
> back to exactly how they were before.
>
> https://www.cobiansoft.com/

Yes, I use Cobian Backup for file-level backup, but only *in addition*
to (Macrium Reflect Free) image backups.

I could do without Cobian Backup and use only MRF image backup,
because that also offers file-level restore for individual files (and
folders?), but my Cobian Backup backups are more frequent and more
selective (and hence faster), also because the Macrium Reflect Free
version can only do Differential backups, not Incremental ones.

[...]

> Despite all the alternatives, there is no reason or cause for Macrium
> Reflect Free to stop working on your current setup. It'll stop working
> there because you decided to stop using it and uninstalled it.
>
> I'm still using a long abandoned and long dead NNTP client (40tude
> Dialog) to participate in Usenet. That support died 20 years ago didn't
> make the program die.

Same here. My newsreader (tin) is over 20 years old. It's still
maintained, but I can't be bothered to 'upgrade' ("Don't fix what ain't
broken."). Same with my over 20 year old local newsserver/'proxy'
(Hamster). And also a bit with my mail client (Thunderbird), which was
frozen a long time ago (60.9.0).

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>On 9/4/2023 6:23 PM, KenW wrote:
>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>
>> Any opinions ?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> KenW
>
>My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
>They are not time bombed, as far as I know.
>
>If Microsoft makes incompatible changes to NTFS, then
>that would be the kind of event which would kick
>older versions of Macrium to the curb (We can't use Macrium 5 for
>W10 or W11 for example). Thus, it will be
>a Microsoft event, that kills off your Free. Rather than
>Macrium being evil and doing it.
>
>Offering the Free version was a sales gimmick, one which
>they do not feel they need to do any more. They do not
>seem to be the kind of people who time bomb software and
>make it drop dead somehow. Any sort of evil behavior would
>be detrimental to future sales. There are more than twenty
>companies making backup software, and it is a competitive
>environment, where your reputation as a prick, matters.
>
>*******
>
>Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>Windows offering.
>
>Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>
>Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>product to product.
>
>Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>Differential [less wasteful of space]
>Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>
>Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
>"disadvantage" any of their Partners.
>
> Paul
>
OK, I will keep using their free program. After all at my age it will
probably outlive me.

KenW

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
>They are not time bombed, as far as I know.

Microsoft is making changes to secure boot to combat BlackLotus.
Pre-patch bootloaders won't work after it is activated.

https://petri.com/microsoft-fix-secure-boot-flaw-windows/

So it hasn't been enabled yet, but when it is you will have to remake all
of your boot media. No idea if Macrium Reflect is getting this, but I
think it downloads the boot image from Microsoft, so fingers crossed.

Full implementation is Q1 2024, after support for Reflect Free is
discontinued. Some day in 2024 we might have some interesting support
cases. Restoring backups made prior to May 9, 2023 will fail with an
unbootable machine.

You can manually activate it now with the steps in the linked article and
see if it changes anything:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/kb5025885-how-to-manage-the-windows-boot-manager-revocations-for-secure-boot-changes-associated-with-cve-2023-24932-41a975df-beb2-40c1-99a3-b3ff139f832d#enable5025885

Good luck.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:45:51 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>>My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
>>They are not time bombed, as far as I know.
>
>Microsoft is making changes to secure boot to combat BlackLotus.
>Pre-patch bootloaders won't work after it is activated.
>
>https://petri.com/microsoft-fix-secure-boot-flaw-windows/
>
>So it hasn't been enabled yet, but when it is you will have to remake all
>of your boot media. No idea if Macrium Reflect is getting this, but I
>think it downloads the boot image from Microsoft, so fingers crossed.
>
>Full implementation is Q1 2024, after support for Reflect Free is
>discontinued. Some day in 2024 we might have some interesting support
>cases. Restoring backups made prior to May 9, 2023 will fail with an
>unbootable machine.
>
>You can manually activate it now with the steps in the linked article and
>see if it changes anything:
>
>https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/kb5025885-how-to-manage-the-windows-boot-manager-revocations-for-secure-boot-changes-associated-with-cve-2023-24932-41a975df-beb2-40c1-99a3-b3ff139f832d#enable5025885
>
>Good luck.
Interesting

KenW

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>Windows offering.
>
>Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>
>Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>product to product.
>
>Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now

If someone were to ask me, I'd say that big hard drives have never been less
expensive than they are now. On a daily basis, I see ads for 20TB Seagates that
cost just a bit over $200. OK, they're Seagate drives, but still.

>Differential [less wasteful of space]
>Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>
>Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
>"disadvantage" any of their Partners.

On 9/5/2023 12:13 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>
> If someone were to ask me, I'd say that big hard drives have never been less
> expensive than they are now. On a daily basis, I see ads for 20TB Seagates that
> cost just a bit over $200. OK, they're Seagate drives, but still.

I can see some refurbs at that price. Are you looking at internals,
or external USB ? I usually use internals here. I control the cooling.

Paul

On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:09 -0600, KenW
<ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

>Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>
>Any opinions ?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>KenW

I've been using the simple freebie Standard Edition of AOMEI for
years.

https://www.aomeitech.com/aomei-backupper.html

If you want all the bells and whistles of fancier ones, this ain't it.

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 9/4/2023 6:23 PM, KenW wrote:
>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>
>> Any opinions ?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> KenW
>
> My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
> They are not time bombed, as far as I know.
>
> If Microsoft makes incompatible changes to NTFS, then
> that would be the kind of event which would kick
> older versions of Macrium to the curb (We can't use Macrium 5 for
> W10 or W11 for example). Thus, it will be
> a Microsoft event, that kills off your Free. Rather than
> Macrium being evil and doing it.
>
> Offering the Free version was a sales gimmick, one which
> they do not feel they need to do any more. They do not
> seem to be the kind of people who time bomb software and
> make it drop dead somehow. Any sort of evil behavior would
> be detrimental to future sales. There are more than twenty
> companies making backup software, and it is a competitive
> environment, where your reputation as a prick, matters.
>
> *******
>
> Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
> like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
> that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
> Windows offering.
>
> Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
> are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
> Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>
> Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
> product to product.
>
> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
> Differential [less wasteful of space]
> Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>
> Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
> "disadvantage" any of their Partners.
>
> Paul

A problem with using a full backup and incrementals thereafter is the
chain gets more fragile the longer it gets. The incrementals are based
on prior incrementals. Lose an incremental, and all following
incrementals are also lost. Keep the chain short. Differentials help
shorten the incremental chain, but without having to use as much space
as full backups. Differentials are based off the full backups, so don't
keep making differentials off one old full backup, because the
differentials will eventually get to nearly as big as a full backup.

One of the reasons I use Macrium Reflect payware is the Image Guardian
feature. They use a stacked file I/O driver much like a rootkit that
prevents deleting, renaming, or encrypting the Reflect backup files. If
it isn't the Reflect program accessing the backup file, access is
rejected. This helps to protect your backups from ransomware.

In the past, I added a pre-backup command that ran a batch file that
would use the devcon console program to [re]enable a drive, mount a
volume on it which makes the drive accessible, and then the backup
program can store its backups on the drive. A post-backup command ran a
batch that unmounted the drive, and disabled the drive. This was to
protect the backups from most malware, but obviously malware can do what
I do to get at the backups, but I've not see malware circumvent that
protection. However, backup files were vulnerable during the backup
when the drive was enabled and a volume mounted with the backup files.
When Macrium added their rootkit Image Guardian to intercept access to
the .mrimg backup files, I didn't need to bother with the hassle of
enabling/disabling drives and mounting/unmounting volumes trying to make
the backup files accessible only to the backup program.

Macrium Image Guardian
https://www.macrium.com/mig

I bought their perpetual license which is twice the price of their
annual subscription price. I dislike subscriptionware, and prefer to
pay for a perpetual license. Newer versions come along, but that
doesn't mean they give me anything more than I already have. That's why
the free version of Reflect will still work despite Macrium dropping
*SUPPORT* for their free version. It'll keep working just like before
until something changes in the OS that prevents Reflect Free from
working; however, it that happens, Microsoft would be killing off the
entire backup software industry.

Microsoft might add a feature that old backup software cannot use, but
that doesn't prevent still using the old backup software. Remember when
Microsoft added VSC (Volume Shadow Copy) in Windows XP. It allowed
backups to save copies of in-use or locked files; else, users had to
reboot to a bootable backup program, so the OS was quiescent that was
getting backed up. Not all backup programs supported VSC when it came
out, but that didn't stop them from continuing to save logical (file)
backups, and have to deal with conflicts on copying locked files, like
pending the file saves until later in the backup job, or requiring a
reboot to do the pending file operations that can be stored in the
registry. There are still some "backup" (file save) programs that don't
support VSC, but most commercial products have long added VSC support.
That wasn't true some 22 years ago when VSC got added to Windows XP.

For example, Microsoft added protect folders feature in Vista.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/allow-an-app-to-access-controlled-folders-b5b6627a-b008-2ca2-7931-7e51e912b034

I don't know of any backup programs that will automatically manage this
feature to protect the backup files, but then I obviously have not used
nor researched every backup program that exists, including enterprise
products. In fact, I've run afoul of controlled folder access when a
backup program couldn't save copies of files in the protected folders.

Char Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>> like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>> that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>> Windows offering.
>>
>> Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>> are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>> Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>>
>> Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>> product to product.
>>
>> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>
> If someone were to ask me, I'd say that big hard drives have never been less
> expensive than they are now. On a daily basis, I see ads for 20TB Seagates that
> cost just a bit over $200. OK, they're Seagate drives, but still.
>
>
>> Differential [less wasteful of space]
>> Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>>
>> Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
>> "disadvantage" any of their Partners.
>
20TB for ~$200+
- quite reasonable

Have not seen any 20TB in the close to $200 range as new, not
re-burbushed/re-certified.

A quick look seems to agree.
I did see a Newegg SB EXOS 20TB 3.5" SATA 6 Gb/s disk with an available
Newegg coupon for $280 U.S.
- still reasonable

Disclaimer:
- I've had two(SG) internal disks - one years ago under the Connor
brand, and another SG branded in the XP/Vista era.
- both failed, the Connor(Track 0), the later
All my other disks have been WD, Samsung, and Crucial(Micron) - none
having failed(my spouse thinks I'm collecting them - more disks than
screwdrivers)

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

casey@invalid.com wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:23:09 -0600, KenW
> <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>
>> Any opinions ?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> KenW
>
> I've been using the simple freebie Standard Edition of AOMEI for
> years.
>
> https://www.aomeitech.com/aomei-backupper.html
>
> If you want all the bells and whistles of fancier ones, this ain't it.
>

I've used AOMEI and EaseUS.
My preference and for some time are 2020 Perpetual Acronis TI and
Macrium Reflect(fee and paid version)

All four have successfully created and restored images.

For those who don't need the bells and whistles Macrium free, AOMEI and
EaseUS are good choices. Once the UI and choices are learned, they all work.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 9/5/23 09:20, this is what Frank Slootweg wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>> KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>>> KenW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>>>>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>>>>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>>>>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>>>
>>>> It might help if you told us why you're abandoning Macrium Reflect
>>>> Free and what features you are looking for in a replacement.
>>>
>>> Because Macrium killed it.
>>>
>>> KenW
>>
>> Wrong. They discontinued SUPPORT of it. The free version is not going
>> to self-destruct. It will still run. You can keep using it, or keep
>> using it until you decide to use something else.
>
> Exactly. I will keep using the Free version until it breaks (which, as
> Paul mentioned, will mostly likely be the results of a *Microsoft*
> change, not Macrium's doing).
>
> *If* it breaks, I might consider the paid version, or try something
> else.
>
> [About Reflect and alternatives. Thanks for your info and references.]
>
>> You also have to decide if you want backups in a proprietary file format
>> (that only the backup software can read), or if you want the files
>> dumped into a universal file format, like .zip archives. I know someone
>> here has mentioned Cobian many times, because he wants backup in .zip
>> file. However, that would only be logical backups instead of image
>> backups. With image backups, you restore the state of your drive(s)
>> back to exactly how they were before.
>>
>> https://www.cobiansoft.com/
>
> Yes, I use Cobian Backup for file-level backup, but only *in addition*
> to (Macrium Reflect Free) image backups.
>
> I could do without Cobian Backup and use only MRF image backup,
> because that also offers file-level restore for individual files (and
> folders?), but my Cobian Backup backups are more frequent and more
> selective (and hence faster), also because the Macrium Reflect Free
> version can only do Differential backups, not Incremental ones.
>
> [...]
>
>> Despite all the alternatives, there is no reason or cause for Macrium
>> Reflect Free to stop working on your current setup. It'll stop working
>> there because you decided to stop using it and uninstalled it.
>>
>> I'm still using a long abandoned and long dead NNTP client (40tude
>> Dialog) to participate in Usenet. That support died 20 years ago didn't
>> make the program die.
>
> Same here. My newsreader (tin) is over 20 years old. It's still
> maintained, but I can't be bothered to 'upgrade' ("Don't fix what ain't
> broken."). Same with my over 20 year old local newsserver/'proxy'
> (Hamster). And also a bit with my mail client (Thunderbird), which was
> frozen a long time ago (60.9.0).
Acronis has made a few bucks outta me over the years. 2014 to 2020. I try to pick up a new copy when they hit a
special like $9.99 or maybe $19.99. 2020 still works on my Windows 10, and my wife is using my old 2019 on Windows 11.
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 11:13:56 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>>like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>>that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>>Windows offering.
>>
>>Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>>are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>>Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>>
>>Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>>product to product.
>>
>>Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>
>If someone were to ask me, I'd say that big hard drives have never been less
>expensive than they are now. On a daily basis, I see ads for 20TB Seagates that
>cost just a bit over $200. OK, they're Seagate drives, but still.

I agree. Even the moderately small hard drives are inexpensive these
days: a 2TB can be bought for around $50. That's why I never recommend
that anyone buy a drive smaller than 2TB. Even if you don't need that
much disk space now, you will soon and at a low prices it makes sense
to plan for the future.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 15:13:12 -0400, "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Char Jackson wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>>> like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>>> that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>>> Windows offering.
>>>
>>> Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>>> are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>>> Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>>>
>>> Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>>> product to product.
>>>
>>> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>>
>> If someone were to ask me, I'd say that big hard drives have never been less
>> expensive than they are now. On a daily basis, I see ads for 20TB Seagates that
>> cost just a bit over $200. OK, they're Seagate drives, but still.
>>
>>
>>> Differential [less wasteful of space]
>>> Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>>>
>>> Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
>>> "disadvantage" any of their Partners.
>>
>20TB for ~$200+
> - quite reasonable
>
>Have not seen any 20TB in the close to $200 range as new, not
>re-burbushed/re-certified.

Depends on what's meant to "close to." I just went to Amazon and see a
couple for around $240

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:05:48 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 9/4/2023 6:23 PM, KenW wrote:
>>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>>
>>> Any opinions ?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> KenW
>>
>> My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
>> They are not time bombed, as far as I know.
>>
>> If Microsoft makes incompatible changes to NTFS, then
>> that would be the kind of event which would kick
>> older versions of Macrium to the curb (We can't use Macrium 5 for
>> W10 or W11 for example). Thus, it will be
>> a Microsoft event, that kills off your Free. Rather than
>> Macrium being evil and doing it.
>>
>> Offering the Free version was a sales gimmick, one which
>> they do not feel they need to do any more. They do not
>> seem to be the kind of people who time bomb software and
>> make it drop dead somehow. Any sort of evil behavior would
>> be detrimental to future sales. There are more than twenty
>> companies making backup software, and it is a competitive
>> environment, where your reputation as a prick, matters.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>> like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>> that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>> Windows offering.
>>
>> Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>> are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>> Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>>
>> Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>> product to product.
>>
>> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>> Differential [less wasteful of space]
>> Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>>
>> Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
>> "disadvantage" any of their Partners.
>>
>> Paul
>
>A problem with using a full backup and incrementals thereafter is the
>chain gets more fragile the longer it gets. The incrementals are based
>on prior incrementals. Lose an incremental, and all following
>incrementals are also lost. Keep the chain short. Differentials help
>shorten the incremental chain, but without having to use as much space
>as full backups. Differentials are based off the full backups, so don't
>keep making differentials off one old full backup, because the
>differentials will eventually get to nearly as big as a full backup.

That's exactly why I prefer full backups to either incremental or
differential.

On 9/5/2023 3:05 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 9/4/2023 6:23 PM, KenW wrote:
>>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point.
>>> I have used Acronis and Paragon in the past.
>>> I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets expensive.
>>>
>>> Any opinions ?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> KenW
>>
>> My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
>> They are not time bombed, as far as I know.
>>
>> If Microsoft makes incompatible changes to NTFS, then
>> that would be the kind of event which would kick
>> older versions of Macrium to the curb (We can't use Macrium 5 for
>> W10 or W11 for example). Thus, it will be
>> a Microsoft event, that kills off your Free. Rather than
>> Macrium being evil and doing it.
>>
>> Offering the Free version was a sales gimmick, one which
>> they do not feel they need to do any more. They do not
>> seem to be the kind of people who time bomb software and
>> make it drop dead somehow. Any sort of evil behavior would
>> be detrimental to future sales. There are more than twenty
>> companies making backup software, and it is a competitive
>> environment, where your reputation as a prick, matters.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> Since Microsoft made "Win7 backup" utilities, companies
>> like Macrium, AOMEI, and Easeus offered free versions
>> that could match the "Full Backup" capability of the
>> Windows offering.
>>
>> Normally, Incremental or Incremental Forever modes, those
>> are commercial offerings and why we buy the third-party software.
>> Microsoft does not offer Incremental with theirs.
>>
>> Whether Differential backups are offered for free, varies from
>> product to product.
>>
>> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>> Differential [less wasteful of space]
>> Incremental [very efficient, suited to automatic backups on a schedule]
>>
>> Microsoft only offered Full, because that way, they would not
>> "disadvantage" any of their Partners.
>>
>> Paul
>
> A problem with using a full backup and incrementals thereafter is the
> chain gets more fragile the longer it gets. The incrementals are based
> on prior incrementals. Lose an incremental, and all following
> incrementals are also lost. Keep the chain short. Differentials help
> shorten the incremental chain, but without having to use as much space
> as full backups. Differentials are based off the full backups, so don't
> keep making differentials off one old full backup, because the
> differentials will eventually get to nearly as big as a full backup.
>
> One of the reasons I use Macrium Reflect payware is the Image Guardian
> feature. They use a stacked file I/O driver much like a rootkit that
> prevents deleting, renaming, or encrypting the Reflect backup files. If
> it isn't the Reflect program accessing the backup file, access is
> rejected. This helps to protect your backups from ransomware.
>
> In the past, I added a pre-backup command that ran a batch file that
> would use the devcon console program to [re]enable a drive, mount a
> volume on it which makes the drive accessible, and then the backup
> program can store its backups on the drive. A post-backup command ran a
> batch that unmounted the drive, and disabled the drive. This was to
> protect the backups from most malware, but obviously malware can do what
> I do to get at the backups, but I've not see malware circumvent that
> protection. However, backup files were vulnerable during the backup
> when the drive was enabled and a volume mounted with the backup files.
> When Macrium added their rootkit Image Guardian to intercept access to
> the .mrimg backup files, I didn't need to bother with the hassle of
> enabling/disabling drives and mounting/unmounting volumes trying to make
> the backup files accessible only to the backup program.
>
> Macrium Image Guardian
> https://www.macrium.com/mig
>
> I bought their perpetual license which is twice the price of their
> annual subscription price. I dislike subscriptionware, and prefer to
> pay for a perpetual license. Newer versions come along, but that
> doesn't mean they give me anything more than I already have. That's why
> the free version of Reflect will still work despite Macrium dropping
> *SUPPORT* for their free version. It'll keep working just like before
> until something changes in the OS that prevents Reflect Free from
> working; however, it that happens, Microsoft would be killing off the
> entire backup software industry.
>
> Microsoft might add a feature that old backup software cannot use, but
> that doesn't prevent still using the old backup software. Remember when
> Microsoft added VSC (Volume Shadow Copy) in Windows XP. It allowed
> backups to save copies of in-use or locked files; else, users had to
> reboot to a bootable backup program, so the OS was quiescent that was
> getting backed up. Not all backup programs supported VSC when it came
> out, but that didn't stop them from continuing to save logical (file)
> backups, and have to deal with conflicts on copying locked files, like
> pending the file saves until later in the backup job, or requiring a
> reboot to do the pending file operations that can be stored in the
> registry. There are still some "backup" (file save) programs that don't
> support VSC, but most commercial products have long added VSC support.
> That wasn't true some 22 years ago when VSC got added to Windows XP.
>
> For example, Microsoft added protect folders feature in Vista.
>
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/allow-an-app-to-access-controlled-folders-b5b6627a-b008-2ca2-7931-7e51e912b034
>
> I don't know of any backup programs that will automatically manage this
> feature to protect the backup files, but then I obviously have not used
> nor researched every backup program that exists, including enterprise
> products. In fact, I've run afoul of controlled folder access when a
> backup program couldn't save copies of files in the protected folders.
>

There is Incremental Forever, which "synthesizes" a FULL, plus starts
a new chain of Incrementals. You could have that trigger, say, once a week,
and shorten the Incremental chain to seven files, as an example.

It's still going to need a new FULL eventually, as... it's software
after all. I presume the Macrium software will do that automatically
at some point.

One of the reasons I do "Verify" commands in Macrium, is a form of
hardware surveillance, "looking for broken stuff". Macrium helped me
find bad RAM one day, just by using Verify and being alerted that
"something was wrong with my computer". I triangulated to a set of
Macrium backups that were bad, tossed those out, and bought new
RAM sticks (after some memtest/Windows Memory Tester work).
Amazing as it may seem, it was Windows Memory Tester, that found
the bad locations. Something I would not have assumed would be possible.

Paul

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 06:19:06 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>>My copies of the Free version are not going anywhere.
>>They are not time bombed, as far as I know.
>
> Microsoft is making changes to secure boot to combat BlackLotus.
> Pre-patch bootloaders won't work after it is activated.
>
> https://petri.com/microsoft-fix-secure-boot-flaw-windows/
>
> So it hasn't been enabled yet, but when it is you will have to remake all
> of your boot media. No idea if Macrium Reflect is getting this, but I
> think it downloads the boot image from Microsoft, so fingers crossed.
>
> Full implementation is Q1 2024, after support for Reflect Free is
> discontinued. Some day in 2024 we might have some interesting support
> cases. Restoring backups made prior to May 9, 2023 will fail with an
> unbootable machine.
>
> You can manually activate it now with the steps in the linked article and
> see if it changes anything:
>
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/kb5025885-how-to-manage-the-windows-boot-manager-revocations-for-secure-boot-changes-associated-with-cve-2023-24932-41a975df-beb2-40c1-99a3-b3ff139f832d#enable5025885
>
> Good luck.

That only affects computers where secure boot is enabled in the BIOS. I
wasn't going to multi-boot on my home PC, so I enabled secure boot in
BIOS, but ran afoul of secure boot (forget the details), and disabled it
which somehow fucked the security key which then made the mobo unusable.
Asrock sent me a new mobo since it was their firmware that screwed up
the removal/disable of Secure Boot.

There is a "feature" of UEFI that allows storing an executable in the
UEFI. The .exe resides in the UEFI, and it loads immediately after
Windows boot, but before anything runs, like Defender. Alas, malware
can put its own .exe in the UEFI. As I recall, starting with Windows 8,
when Windows loads, its wpbbin.exe looks for the executable file in the
UEFI, and, if one is found there, will run it. WPBT (Windows Platform
Binary Table) is an ACPI table in the firmware to allow a vendor,
company, or even malware to run a program every time Windows loads. One
trick to kill WPBT is to rename or delete the wpbbin.exe file, but an OS
update could replace it. I forget the tool, but there's one that will
inspect the UEFI, and if the .exe file is found there will delete it.
You add it as a startup program to check (late in the Windows boot
process) and delete the .exe file from the UEFI ACPI table. I think teh
ACPI table is actually named WPBT. Another solution to kill WPBT is to
edit the registry:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager]
"DisableWpbtExecution"=dword:00000001

However, Microsoft can remove support of any registry entry in any
update or version of Windows, so the registry hack may not survive.
Since you can edit the registry, so can malware to delete this key, or
set it to zero (disable the disable).

In the BIOS for my mobo, I disabled the feature (don't remember the name
of the setting) which is separate of the Secure Boot option. Nirsoft's
FirmwareTablesView (www.nirsoft.net/utils/firmware_tables_view.html)
doesn't show an ACPI table named WPBT, but then me disabling the
"feature" might've removed the ACPI table.

It is possible some security software might use the UEFI's WPBT support
in an ACPI table to act like a rootkit, but so can malware, and so can
companies or owners of the computer that want to run their software
everytime Windows loads, like tracking usage or software inventorying.

https://www.lifewire.com/efi-file-2620983
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsoft-wpbt-flaw-lets-hackers-install-rootkits-on-windows-devices/
https://eclypsium.com/blog/everyone-gets-a-rootkit/
https://www.gigxp.com/how-to-disable-the-windows-platform-binary-table-wpbt/
https://download.microsoft.com/download/8/a/2/8a2fb72d-9b96-4e2d-a559-4a27cf905a80/windows-platform-binary-table.docx

If you own the computer you use, there is nothing good about WPBT. I
didn't bother to research BlackLotus to see if it uses WPBT to bypass
Secure Boot, or it uses some other vulnerability in UEFI. From the
rather vague descriptions, seems BlackLotus is using the WPBT ACPI table
to run its bootloader: Windows starts, wpbbin.exe runs the .exe in the
UEFI WPBT ACPI table, and the malware takes over before Defender or any
anti-malware program becomes active to defend against the malware's
actions. I think BitDefender, and perhaps other AV programs, will
detect the presence of an .exe in the WPBT ACPI table in firmware, but
the detection is late (after the malware got ran). The articles on
BlackLotus, and Microsoft phased mitigation, really don't detail just
how BlackLotus employed a vulnerability in UEFI, or what Microsoft is
doing to mitigate the vulnerability.

WPBT could be used by backup programs that want to run [partially] as a
rootkit, but I don't recall seeing any that use WPBT. So far, Macrium
Reflect with its Image Guardian works by a stacked file I/O driver, not
by employing WPBT. WPBT runs the UEFI-embedded .exe only once (but that
program could start a service, or stay loaded in background), so not
sure it makes sense to use WPBT to run a monitoring program looking for
deletes, writes, or renames on backup files.

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> Char Jackson wrote:
>
>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Full [very wasteful of space] <=== big hard drives are expensive now
>>
>> If someone were to ask me, I'd say that big hard drives have never
>> been less expensive than they are now. On a daily basis, I see ads
>> for 20TB Seagates that cost just a bit over $200. OK, they're
>> Seagate drives, but still.
>
> I can see some refurbs at that price. Are you looking at internals,
> or external USB ? I usually use internals here. I control the cooling.

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100167523%20601398066%204814&Order=1
(desktop internal spinners)

Newegg doesn't have rock bottom prices, but they are a reliable vendor,
and their prices are usually close to rock bottom. Typically the
vendors at rock bottom are unknown and untrusted.

<casey@invalid.com> wrote:

> KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>> Trying to decide what to use for disk imaging after Reflect Free.
>> Testing Hasleo Backup at this point. I have used Acronis and Paragon
>> in the past. I guess Free, as programs for four machines gets
>> expensive.
>
> I've been using the simple freebie Standard Edition of AOMEI for
> years.
>
> https://www.aomeitech.com/aomei-backupper.html
>
> If you want all the bells and whistles of fancier ones, this ain't it.

They have an edition comparison table at:

https://www.aomeitech.com/ab/standard.html

You can decide which, if any features, missing in their free Standard
edition you require that would require buying their payware version.
For the free edition:

- No differential backups (just full and differential).
- No "scheme" function. No settings for thresholds at which to delete
old backups, so you'll have to monitor how fast your backup drive
fills up. Most users don't monitor, so the backups eventually fail
due to lack of free space (along with working space), and users may
not monitor the backup logs to know when they start failing.
- No encryption. Anyone that gets access to your backup files can get
at your data stored in them, too.
- No ransomware protection.
- No explore of backup images. Explore lets you open the backup image
(as a mounted drive), so you can peruse to find whatever file(s) you
want to yank out of the backup image.
- Runs as a user-mode program under Windows. No option to add as a
boot-time load option, or use bootable media.

If none of those are important to you, the free AOMEI BackUpper is a
choice for those not wishing to delve into the realm of backup
technologies. A lot of Windows users still use MS Paint instead of
diving into GIMP.