This game is too hard. Between getting beheaded and having no way back to the surface when going down, my party is forever lost and I don't want to grind out a new one to rescue them. I'd like that sword of slicing, but I'm spending 1750 per adventure on resurrection because of Bushwhacker special instant kill attack. What convinces me I'm making the right decision to quit this game is the battle delay. All Wizardries before this pace through the battle with a timer, but W:tFO has you press a button to advance battle. It's tedious and it causes me to miss important information. You have to go down by entering a cave in. Then, while enemies are hitting you left and right, you have to cave in to third level where you can take a rope up to second level. To get to first level from second there is a hideous switch puzzle where there are three UNLABELED switches and a blotted message that's supposed to explain what to do. Jesus I just want to be able to experience a second level without certain death. There don't seem to be any walkthroughs available yet.

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT), Julian <j63840576@gmail.com>
wrote:

>This game is too hard. Between getting beheaded and having no way
>back to the surface when going down, my party is forever lost and
>I don't want to grind out a new one to rescue them. I'd like that
>sword of slicing, but I'm spending 1750 per adventure on resurrection
>because of Bushwhacker special instant kill attack. What convinces me
>I'm making the right decision to quit this game is the battle delay.
>All Wizardries before this pace through the battle with a timer, but
>W:tFO has you press a button to advance battle. It's tedious and it
>causes me to miss important information. You have to go down by
>entering a cave in. Then, while enemies are hitting you left and
>right, you have to cave in to third level where you can take a rope up
>to second level. To get to first level from second there is a hideous
>switch puzzle where there are three UNLABELED switches and a blotted
>message that's supposed to explain what to do. Jesus I just want to
>be able to experience a second level without certain death. There
>don't seem to be any walkthroughs available yet.

Isn't W:TFO just the original Wizardry game with updated graphics and
interface?

Because the originals could be brutal in their difficulty. The
presiding theory for games of the day was to create extremely
challenging gameplay where frequent deaths were the norm. In arcade
games, this earned the owner more quarters, but that philosophy
carried over to PC games too. It took a long time for the idea that
the overall experience should be fun, not frustration. (LucasArts
games were revolutionary in their time for not killing you for the
slightest mistakes). And even if the later iterations of the franchise
softened somewhat, they always were more 'hardcore' than their
competitors.

I mean, I get what you're saying: I never much cared for the Wizardry
games for the same reasons. But on the other hand, you're playing a
Wizardry game; what did you expect? ;-)

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:33:00 AM UTC-5, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT), Julian <j638...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >This game is too hard. Between getting beheaded and having no way
> >back to the surface when going down, my party is forever lost and
> >I don't want to grind out a new one to rescue them. I'd like that
> >sword of slicing, but I'm spending 1750 per adventure on resurrection
> >because of Bushwhacker special instant kill attack. What convinces me
> >I'm making the right decision to quit this game is the battle delay.
> >All Wizardries before this pace through the battle with a timer, but
> >W:tFO has you press a button to advance battle. It's tedious and it
> >causes me to miss important information. You have to go down by
> >entering a cave in. Then, while enemies are hitting you left and
> >right, you have to cave in to third level where you can take a rope up
> >to second level. To get to first level from second there is a hideous
> >switch puzzle where there are three UNLABELED switches and a blotted
> >message that's supposed to explain what to do. Jesus I just want to
> >be able to experience a second level without certain death. There
> >don't seem to be any walkthroughs available yet.
> Isn't W:TFO just the original Wizardry game with updated graphics and
> interface?
>
> Because the originals could be brutal in their difficulty. The
> presiding theory for games of the day was to create extremely
> challenging gameplay where frequent deaths were the norm. In arcade
> games, this earned the owner more quarters, but that philosophy
> carried over to PC games too. It took a long time for the idea that
> the overall experience should be fun, not frustration. (LucasArts
> games were revolutionary in their time for not killing you for the
> slightest mistakes). And even if the later iterations of the franchise
> softened somewhat, they always were more 'hardcore' than their
> competitors.
>
> I mean, I get what you're saying: I never much cared for the Wizardry
> games for the same reasons. But on the other hand, you're playing a
> Wizardry game; what did you expect? ;-)

I decided to give it another go. I actually made a great deal of progress in that run with all the mapping out of Level 2, but I couldn't get those switches figured out and one of my characters was at 8 hp susceptible to death at any time. Back to base camp leaving my heroes to be rescued some time in the future. This is not a remake of Wizardry. It is sort of retro though because it brings back features from Wizardry I-III. I'm going to rely on getting sleeker and faster with experience to get past this puzzle. If my heroes were level 8 or so, I'd be able to withstand most of the attacks on second floor, but getting to level 8 on first floor experience values would have taken a week more in preparation. So, maybe just a little more effort...

Am 22.08.23 um 17:32 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> Isn't W:TFO just the original Wizardry game with updated graphics and
> interface?
Actually no it is a totally new part. Between dozends of legal
entangelements the Wizardry rights have landed a while ago in japan,
where new parts have been produced for quite some time, they now are
slowly landing in the west. Not sure whether the legal entanglements
have been resolved, but they were the reason why newer wizardries were
not sold over here.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 18:17:35 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

>Am 22.08.23 um 17:32 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
>> Isn't W:TFO just the original Wizardry game with updated graphics and
>> interface?

>Actually no it is a totally new part. Between dozends of legal
>entangelements the Wizardry rights have landed a while ago in japan,
>where new parts have been produced for quite some time, they now are
>slowly landing in the west. Not sure whether the legal entanglements
>have been resolved, but they were the reason why newer wizardries were
>not sold over here.

I stand corrected then. I was under the belief that it was just
Wizardry-revamped. Then again, I never really looked into the games
because - as stated - the original games were never a huge draw for
me, always being something of an also-ran compared to the far more
enticing "Bards Tale" or "Might & Magic" games.

I knew that Wizardry had been incredibly popular in Japan (so were the
early Ultimas), even though its competitors didn't make as much of a
splash. IIRC, there was a lot of secondary merchandise - I think even
a TV series? - based off the franchise. I /didn't/ know that the
franchise was continued in that country. I'm glad that those releases
are finally working their way out into other countries, even if I have
no real desire to play them.

Nonetheless, I think my main thesis remains apt: if it's Wizardry,
it's hard (or it should be). It's the original 'git gud, scrub' game.
Creating a fun experience was always a secondary goal of the series.
Frustrating the player with repeated deaths was always the first. ;-)

Am 23.08.23 um 13:45 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2023 18:17:35 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Am 22.08.23 um 17:32 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
>>> Isn't W:TFO just the original Wizardry game with updated graphics and
>>> interface?
>
>> Actually no it is a totally new part. Between dozends of legal
>> entangelements the Wizardry rights have landed a while ago in japan,
>> where new parts have been produced for quite some time, they now are
>> slowly landing in the west. Not sure whether the legal entanglements
>> have been resolved, but they were the reason why newer wizardries were
>> not sold over here.
>
> I stand corrected then. I was under the belief that it was just
> Wizardry-revamped. Then again, I never really looked into the games
> because - as stated - the original games were never a huge draw for
> me, always being something of an also-ran compared to the far more
> enticing "Bards Tale" or "Might & Magic" games.
>
> I knew that Wizardry had been incredibly popular in Japan (so were the
> early Ultimas), even though its competitors didn't make as much of a
> splash. IIRC, there was a lot of secondary merchandise - I think even
> a TV series? - based off the franchise. I /didn't/ know that the
> franchise was continued in that country. I'm glad that those releases
> are finally working their way out into other countries, even if I have
> no real desire to play them.
>
> Nonetheless, I think my main thesis remains apt: if it's Wizardry,
> it's hard (or it should be). It's the original 'git gud, scrub' game.
> Creating a fun experience was always a secondary goal of the series.
> Frustrating the player with repeated deaths was always the first. ;-)
>
>
Same here, while I applaud Wizardry to be basically the first single
player dungeon crawler, I never really got into the series probably
because when those games were interesting I did not have them or the
means to buy them or even knew about them.
(not sure if they were even ported to the atari 8 bit systems)
Later on I also did not like those hack and slay style of rpg games,
hence also eob and whatever never really caught on me.
The story how Wizardry ended up in japan is quite interesting btw.
I dont have a link, but you might be able to google it up!

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 07:45:10 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Nonetheless, I think my main thesis remains apt: if it's Wizardry,
>it's hard (or it should be). It's the original 'git gud, scrub' game.
>Creating a fun experience was always a secondary goal of the series.
>Frustrating the player with repeated deaths was always the first. ;-)

I don't know about this Wizardry but as far as the original Wizardries
go, you do NOT have to make another party and send them in to save the
first party. I don't remember what I did exactly as I have not played
a Wizardry game in years but I think it was something like just
rebooting the game if your party died or something like that and
continuing from the castle from my last save.

The only Wizardry that is difficult is the fourth one. The others are
on par with Bard's Tale and Might and Magic.

Julian <j63840576@gmail.com> wrote:

> This game is too hard. Between getting beheaded and having no way
> back to the surface when going down, my party is forever lost and I
> don't want to grind out a new one to rescue them. I'd like that sword
> of slicing, but I'm spending 1750 per adventure on resurrection
> because of Bushwhacker special instant kill attack. What convinces me
> I'm making the right decision to quit this game is the battle delay.
> All Wizardries before this pace through the battle with a timer, but
> W:tFO has you press a button to advance battle. It's tedious and it
> causes me to miss important information. You have to go down by
> entering a cave in. Then, while enemies are hitting you left and
> right, you have to cave in to third level where you can take a rope up
> to second level. To get to first level from second there is a hideous
> switch puzzle where there are three UNLABELED switches and a blotted
> message that's supposed to explain what to do. Jesus I just want to
> be able to experience a second level without certain death. There
> don't seem to be any walkthroughs available yet.

If you run out of patience with the switches, you can find the correct
sequence on the game's discussion board on Steam. I ended up looking
it up myself after trying a number of times based on the in-game hint
and getting nowhere. I don't think there's a complete walkthrough
there, but there are solutions for many of the puzzles, and the guides
section had floor maps for a number of the scenarios.

There's also a keyboard shortcut that can help with the battles:
Control+F1 will reset back to the title screen. The game auto-saves
fairly often when walking around the dungeon but never during battle,
so when your party ends up dead, level-drained, turned to stone, etc.,
if you reset before the battle ends, you'll be back before the battle
happened when you reload.

RelMark

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 4:14:53 PM UTC-5, RelMark wrote:
> Julian <j638...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This game is too hard. Between getting beheaded and having no way
> > back to the surface when going down, my party is forever lost and I
> > don't want to grind out a new one to rescue them. I'd like that sword
> > of slicing, but I'm spending 1750 per adventure on resurrection
> > because of Bushwhacker special instant kill attack. What convinces me
> > I'm making the right decision to quit this game is the battle delay.
> > All Wizardries before this pace through the battle with a timer, but
> > W:tFO has you press a button to advance battle. It's tedious and it
> > causes me to miss important information. You have to go down by
> > entering a cave in. Then, while enemies are hitting you left and
> > right, you have to cave in to third level where you can take a rope up
> > to second level. To get to first level from second there is a hideous
> > switch puzzle where there are three UNLABELED switches and a blotted
> > message that's supposed to explain what to do. Jesus I just want to
> > be able to experience a second level without certain death. There
> > don't seem to be any walkthroughs available yet.
> If you run out of patience with the switches, you can find the correct
> sequence on the game's discussion board on Steam. I ended up looking
> it up myself after trying a number of times based on the in-game hint
> and getting nowhere. I don't think there's a complete walkthrough
> there, but there are solutions for many of the puzzles, and the guides
> section had floor maps for a number of the scenarios.
>
> There's also a keyboard shortcut that can help with the battles:
> Control+F1 will reset back to the title screen. The game auto-saves
> fairly often when walking around the dungeon but never during battle,
> so when your party ends up dead, level-drained, turned to stone, etc.,
> if you reset before the battle ends, you'll be back before the battle
> happened when you reload.
>
> RelMark

You know I tried this and it did reset to the title, but my characters were still lost. I'm playing the Original Wizardry now, and was successful in recovering a party by shutting down the computer. That's what happens when you're surprised by 5 orcs and 5 kobolds against your second level PCs and you're distracted by the cleaning lady trying to start a conversation..

On Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 10:44:10 PM UTC-5, Julian wrote:
> On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 4:14:53 PM UTC-5, RelMark wrote:
> > Julian <j638...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This game is too hard. Between getting beheaded and having no way
> > > back to the surface when going down, my party is forever lost and I
> > > don't want to grind out a new one to rescue them. I'd like that sword
> > > of slicing, but I'm spending 1750 per adventure on resurrection
> > > because of Bushwhacker special instant kill attack. What convinces me
> > > I'm making the right decision to quit this game is the battle delay.
> > > All Wizardries before this pace through the battle with a timer, but
> > > W:tFO has you press a button to advance battle. It's tedious and it
> > > causes me to miss important information. You have to go down by
> > > entering a cave in. Then, while enemies are hitting you left and
> > > right, you have to cave in to third level where you can take a rope up
> > > to second level. To get to first level from second there is a hideous
> > > switch puzzle where there are three UNLABELED switches and a blotted
> > > message that's supposed to explain what to do. Jesus I just want to
> > > be able to experience a second level without certain death. There
> > > don't seem to be any walkthroughs available yet.
> > If you run out of patience with the switches, you can find the correct
> > sequence on the game's discussion board on Steam. I ended up looking
> > it up myself after trying a number of times based on the in-game hint
> > and getting nowhere. I don't think there's a complete walkthrough
> > there, but there are solutions for many of the puzzles, and the guides
> > section had floor maps for a number of the scenarios.
> >
> > There's also a keyboard shortcut that can help with the battles:
> > Control+F1 will reset back to the title screen. The game auto-saves
> > fairly often when walking around the dungeon but never during battle,
> > so when your party ends up dead, level-drained, turned to stone, etc.,
> > if you reset before the battle ends, you'll be back before the battle
> > happened when you reload.
> >
> > RelMark
> You know I tried this and it did reset to the title, but my characters were still lost. I'm playing the Original Wizardry now, and was successful in recovering a party by shutting down the computer. That's what happens when you're surprised by 5 orcs and 5 kobolds against your second level PCs and you're distracted by the cleaning lady trying to start a conversation..

Sorry you were right. They camped out in the dungeon. I expected them to be in the castle.

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 8:52:16 AM UTC-5, Mike S. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 07:45:10 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Nonetheless, I think my main thesis remains apt: if it's Wizardry,
> >it's hard (or it should be). It's the original 'git gud, scrub' game.
> >Creating a fun experience was always a secondary goal of the series.
> >Frustrating the player with repeated deaths was always the first. ;-)
> I don't know about this Wizardry but as far as the original Wizardries
> go, you do NOT have to make another party and send them in to save the
> first party. I don't remember what I did exactly as I have not played
> a Wizardry game in years but I think it was something like just
> rebooting the game if your party died or something like that and
> continuing from the castle from my last save.
>
> The only Wizardry that is difficult is the fourth one. The others are
> on par with Bard's Tale and Might and Magic.

This works except it puts you somewhere random in the dungeon. It could be anywhere. What I've been doing is I have an Evil party and a Good party then when I need some kind of rescue mission I put together some combination of the two.