On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:14:23 -0400, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
>
> Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in
> just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
>
> WTF is going on here???!!!

Different controllers. Perhaps there is a problem with the sata controller or
one of the devices connected to it (in terms of the device being slow to
initialize), or a barely working sata cable/connector.

Start by re-seating all of the sata connectors.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 4/8/2023 5:10 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 22:38:46 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1 &/or
>> 2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860 EVO 1TB &
>> the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good service?
>
> People have been talking about Samsung QVO and EVO, but I'd like to toss
> out a recommendation for Samsung Pro.
>
> This article is one of many that tries to describe the differences
> between the 3 Samsung product lines.
>
> https://www.partitionwizard.com/clone-disk/samsung-qvo-vs-evo.html
>
> Samsung QVO vs EVO vs PRO: What's the Difference?
>
> How to Interpret Samsung SSD Model: QVO vs EVO vs PRO
>
> In general, Samsung SSDs are mainly divided into two categories:
> enterprise-level SSDs and consumer-level SSDs. Enterprise SSDs focus on
> data integrity, followed by capacity and performance, and finally cost.
> Consumer SSDs first seek cost, followed by capacity and performance, and
> finally data integrity.
>
> In addition, consumer-level SSDs are also divided into two categories:
> SSDs for retail customers and SSDs for OEM customers. QVO, EVO, and PRO
> usually appear in retail customer SSD models in the form of a suffix. To
> some extent, these suffixes indicate different technologies applied in
> NAND flash of these SSDs.
>
> As we all know, an SSD often uses NAND flash to store data persistently.
> When the NAND flash is made via different technologies, the SSD storage,
> performance, and lifespan will vary accordingly. In Samsung SSDs, PRO
> indicates the SSD uses MLC, EVO indicates the SSD uses TLC, and QVO
> indicates the SSD uses QLC.
>
> MLC, short for Multi-Level Cell, means that one memory cell can store 2
> bits of data.
>
> TLC, short for Triple-Level Cell, means that one memory cell can store 3
> bits of data.
>
> QLC, short for Quad-Level Cell, means that one memory cell can store 4
> bits of data.
>
> Cost: PRO SSD is the most expensive, then the EVO SSD, and finally the
> QVO SSD.
>
> Performance: performance of Samsung PRO SSD is the best, then the EVO
> SSD, and finally the QVO SSD.
>
> Lifespan: the lifespan of Samsung PRO SSD is the longest, then the EVO
> SSD, and finally the QVO SSD.
>
> ...there is no other difference in technology among Samsung PRO, EVO,
> and QVO SSDs, apart from NAND flash memory. But Samsung QVO, EVO, and
> PRO SSDs still vary in performance and warranty (you regard it as
> lifespan).
>
> Samsung PRO SSD: It is currently the company’s flagship SATA SSD.
> With MLC technology, its speed and the endurance rating or TBW make it
> stand out from Samsung 860 QVO vs EVO vs PRO comparison. Although its
> warranty period is similar with the 860 EVO series, its TBW is doubled.
> But it’s also the most expensive one as well. On Amazon, it starts at
> $87.99 (for 256GB).
> Samsung EVO SSD: It’s one of the most popular SSD series in the
> market and offers similar or near the performance of the 860 PRO SSD
> series, but at a more affordable price. On Amazon, it starts at $59.98
> (for 250GB).
> Samsung QVO SSD: It is Samsung’s first consumer-grade quad-level
> cell (QLC) NAND drive and has the same sequential read and write speed
> with the 860 EVO. But the 4KB random read and write speeds and TBW can't
> match with those of 860 EVO series. Its only advantage is price,
> starting at $109.99 (for 1TB) on Amazon.
>
> In a word, if you want a large-capacity and cost-effective SSD, you can
> buy 860 QVO. If you have no special demand, 860 EVO is sufficient. If
> you need an SSD that be used under heavy load, I recommended you to buy
> 860 PRO.
>
> (end article quote, but there's more at the link above)
>

On the Samsung consumer SATA side, they have stopped with the Pro SKUs.
Some of the older lines had Pro, and likely honest to goodness MLC. I think
I may have one or two of those here. As far as I know, the 870 SATA line,
the top SKU is 870 EVO.

The NVMe still have Pro, but what do I find ?

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-990-pro-ssd-review/2

"After the pSLC cache runs out, the 990 Pro maintains around 1.4 GBps
in a direct-to-TLC mode. This is slower than expected and, indeed, the
rest of the drives in the test will all eventually out-write it."

Samsung likes to pretend they are "challenged by the English language"
and it's all a merry mixup. I find all sorts of bullshit in adverts,
which may have been put there by the vendors. How can you
nail them down on stuff like this, when the mothership is so "wishy-washy"
with terminology of "MLC-like". Either it is MLC or it is not.
There's no excuse for shit like that.

As soon as people talk of "SLC-cache" or the pSLC term (pseudo SLC) made up
in that review, then it's just TLC or QLC under the covers. And the writes happen
in two phases (which is not good for wear life).

At the current time, there is an issue with 980 Pro and 990 Pro
requiring a firmware upgrade before you use them. Ask your retailer
for details. The firmware was sparing out good sectors, and the
life indicator was rocketing down when nothing was going on.
The new firmware does not reverse the sparing situation either.
That's why you must do the firmware update immediately
if buying one brand new, and not wanting to lose service life.

With OCZ, it was changing flash chips used, in the middle
of a production run. My Corsair Neutron was like that too, showing
up with TLC in it. With WD/Seagate, it was trying to pass off
shingled drives as suitable usage in a NAS. Storage is like a
series of dark alleys downtown. Carry a flashlight at all times,
or you'll get mugged.

Paul

On 08/04/2023 23:53, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:14:23 -0400, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>> Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
>>
>> Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in
>> just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
>>
>> WTF is going on here???!!!
>
> Different controllers. Perhaps there is a problem with the sata
> controller or one of the devices connected to it (in terms of
> the device being slow to initialize), or a barely working sata
> cable/connector.
>
> Start by re-seating all of the sata connectors.

I'd already removed the HD to try the P3 one, but nevertheless I took it
out again and examined the connectors, and there's nothing visibly wrong
with them. I can't examine the mobo connectors or the controller chip
without a major dismantling of the laptop, and I'm too busy to do that ATM.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 4/10/2023 8:07 AM, Java Jive wrote:
> On 08/04/2023 23:53, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:14:23 -0400, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
>>>
>>> Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in
>>> just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
>>>
>>> WTF is going on here???!!!
>>
>> Different controllers. Perhaps there is a problem with the sata controller or one of the devices connected to it (in terms of the device being slow to initialize), or a barely working sata
>> cable/connector.
>>
>> Start by re-seating all of the sata connectors.
>
> I'd already removed the HD to try the P3 one, but nevertheless I took it out again and examined the connectors, and there's nothing visibly wrong with them.  I can't examine the mobo connectors or the controller chip without a major dismantling of the laptop, and I'm too busy to do that ATM.
>

There are CRC counters on either end of the SATA link.
On a CRC error, a transmission can be repeated
(details unknown to me).

If you kink a SATA cable, it can have a high error rate.
SATA cables should be treated (roughly) like optical cable.
Don't exceed the bend radius allowed for SATA cables.
(The SATA cables that arrive in the mail, with an elastic
wrapped around them multiple times, that just makes me "nuts"
when I see that :-/ DONT DO THAT. )

SMART has the counter for the disk drive end. If there
is an OS performance counter, I don't know where that is buried.

*******

You could have a logjam in the PCI Express or DMI tree
in theory, but I doubt anyone, even with a pathological
setup, has managed that. It's possible to oversubscribe,
from the Southbridge end of the system, and not have
enough bandwidth. Normal computer usage, is never heavy
enough to make such as an observable condition. the computer
continues to work, that is not a problem, but the speeds
may no longer be optimal.

*******

CPUs have two levels of throttling. See references to
Dell "Throttlegate", for which the PDF is pretty hard to find.
It's a 25 page document, where a user researched why his
computer was slow. A couple Dell laptops seemed to have an
overaggressive BIOS throttling thing, where once the
computer slowed down, it would not speed up when the
anomalous operating conditions were removed. Only a reboot
would attempt to resolve the matter.

You can run Live Media, do "TORAM=yes" on the boot line,
then run a bench in there, to see what a different operating
environment finds. By running with media stored in RAM,
this removed disks from the picture, so you can study "slowness"
without disks.

Paul

On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:

> Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, moderately
> priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?

WD model WD10JUCT is available from various suppliers for about £60.
It's intended for CCTV, DVRs and similar uses where the volume of data
written is similar to the volume read. OK the ones I have are new-old
stock dated 2017 - 2019.
--
Dave

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:57:10 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
as underneath :

snip
>If you kink a SATA cable, it can have a high error rate.
>SATA cables should be treated (roughly) like optical cable.
>Don't exceed the bend radius allowed for SATA cables.
>(The SATA cables that arrive in the mail, with an elastic
>wrapped around them multiple times, that just makes me "nuts"
>when I see that :-/ DONT DO THAT. )
>
snip
> Paul

Thanks I didnt know that! Have seen SATA cables supplied oem with
motherboards folded but not that tightly. I once pulled a failing flat
red type cable to bits out of interest and found Alu. single strands
crimped to contacts inside the moulded ends which was a surprise to me.
C+

On 4/11/2023 2:05 AM, Charlie+ wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:57:10 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
> as underneath :
>
> snip
>> If you kink a SATA cable, it can have a high error rate.
>> SATA cables should be treated (roughly) like optical cable.
>> Don't exceed the bend radius allowed for SATA cables.
>> (The SATA cables that arrive in the mail, with an elastic
>> wrapped around them multiple times, that just makes me "nuts"
>> when I see that :-/ DONT DO THAT. )
>>
> snip
>> Paul
>
> Thanks I didnt know that! Have seen SATA cables supplied oem with
> motherboards folded but not that tightly. I once pulled a failing flat
> red type cable to bits out of interest and found Alu. single strands
> crimped to contacts inside the moulded ends which was a surprise to me.
> C+
>

There has to be a pronounced kink in it,
for the error counter to see an issue.

When you kink the cable, it crushes that white
insulating material and changes the transmission
line impedance.

Paul

In article <u136b4$2ile3$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

> There has to be a pronounced kink in it, for the error counter to see an
> issue.

> When you kink the cable, it crushes that white insulating material and
> changes the transmission line impedance.

The 'kink' be better modelled as an added shunt component as it is
localised. However if the cable folded so lengths are close together, the
problem may be cross-field coupling between them. The fields that carry the
signal energy are outside the metal of the wires.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 10/04/2023 13:07, Java Jive wrote:
>
> On 08/04/2023 23:53, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:14:23 -0400, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
>>>
>>> Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in
>>> just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
>>>
>>> WTF is going on here???!!!
>>
>> Different controllers. Perhaps there is a problem with the sata
>> controller or one of the devices connected to it (in terms of the
>> device being slow to initialize), or a barely working sata
>> cable/connector.
>>
>> Start by re-seating all of the sata connectors.
>
> I'd already removed the HD to try the P3 one, but nevertheless I took it
> out again and examined the connectors, and there's nothing visibly wrong
> with them.  I can't examine the mobo connectors or the controller chip
> without a major dismantling of the laptop, and I'm too busy to do that ATM.

After a test re-imaging of the slow PC, a Dell Precision of M6300
laptop, with an old XP SysPrep image, I noticed that the DVD-Writer
wasn't showing in Device Manager. I swapped it with one of the others,
and now both DVD-Writers are showing up on both PCs, and on the problem
PC the long delay between the POST screen and beginning to load the OS
has been removed, so it seems that delay was being caused by the CD-DVD
unit being second in the boot search order, between USB (1st) and HD
(3rd), but no actual device being found at boot time.

However, in normal use, it's still behaving erratically and is unstable,
even after the re-imaging; usual symptom is the first explorer process
- the one that runs the Desktop as opposed to subsequent ones that run
the File Manager - crashing. However, that wasn't happening, at least
not that I can definitely remember, previously, so that may be related
to reverting to quite an old image. Having concluded my testing with
this image, I shall put the original image back on to see what happens.

However, whether or not extra problems have been introduced by the old
image, it still seems treacle-like slow, so there's still some problem
with it.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk