On 2023-05-24 16:54, badgolferman wrote:
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 06:58:14 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not aware if any healthcare system in Europe who can afford to buy Macs
>>> for routine use. Here, pretty much everything is windows based.
>>
>>
>> I don't know about Europe, but whenever I go to a doctor's office or
>> hospital here in the US, all the computers I see are running Windows.
>>
>
> Yes, because people who have to do real work use Windows.

Nono.

Back in the day, you would choose a Mac because it was much better for
some lines of work. Say publishing, graphical or art...

So it depends on the usage. You can not say such a broad thing of one brand.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-05-24 14:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-24 16:54, badgolferman wrote:
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 24 May 2023 06:58:14 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not aware if any healthcare system in Europe who can afford to
>>>> buy Macs
>>>> for routine use. Here, pretty much everything is windows based.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about Europe, but whenever I go to a doctor's office or
>>> hospital here in the US, all the computers I see are running Windows.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, because people who have to do real work use Windows.
>
> Nono.
>
> Back in the day, you would choose a Mac because it was much better for
> some lines of work. Say publishing, graphical or art...
>
> So it depends on the usage. You can not say such a broad thing of one
> brand.
>

I can say with certainty that Macs will save you money on support.

On 24-05-2023 16:53 Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> I can say with certainty that Macs will save you money on support.

Most home computer owners never spend a dime on support.

If software or hardware breaks, they google for the solution and they fix
it themselves. Hardware they often replace. Software they reload & test.

I always thought those 3 year Windows warranty periods were too long since
I'd rather they gave me money off on the device since I'll never call them.

Although "Hello... this is Microsoft Support" heavily accented guys
incongruously named something like "Sam" or "Joe" used to call me out of
the blue, unasked for, in the past, just to ask if they could log into my
computer remotely to fix it for me (because the Event Viewer was filled
up).

I bring that up because they knew my warranty information so that's a
downside of those warranties, which is our data is sold to other companies.

On 2023-05-27 12:05, Eowin O wrote:
> On 24-05-2023 16:53 Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> I can say with certainty that Macs will save you money on support.
>
> Most home computer owners never spend a dime on support.

I beg to differ....

....as I have numerous home users among my clients.

>
> If software or hardware breaks, they google for the solution and they fix
> it themselves. Hardware they often replace. Software they reload & test.

You estimate typical users based on your own experiences, I'm guessing.

>
> I always thought those 3 year Windows warranty periods were too long since
> I'd rather they gave me money off on the device since I'll never call them.

As I just said.

>
> Although "Hello... this is Microsoft Support" heavily accented guys
> incongruously named something like "Sam" or "Joe" used to call me out of
> the blue, unasked for, in the past, just to ask if they could log into my
> computer remotely to fix it for me (because the Event Viewer was filled
> up).
>
> I bring that up because they knew my warranty information so that's a
> downside of those warranties, which is our data is sold to other companies.

So why did you buy "those warranties"?

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:

>> I bring that up because they knew my warranty information so that's a
>> downside of those warranties, which is our data is sold to other companies.
>
> So why did you buy "those warranties"?

The warranty comes with the desktop which is why I said I'd rather they
didn't give me a warranty and just gave me the money it cost them instead.

You buy the computer from Dell. Microsoft provides the support for the
operating system and Dell provides the support for the hardware.

Microsoft support is free and lasts longer than the hardware ever will.
The hardware warranties are very short - maybe only two or three years.

Even so, computer hardware rarely breaks, and if it does, you generally
replace the board or monitor cheaper than it would cost for support.

Paying extra for support is a waste of money for home computer users.

On 2023-05-27 12:23, Eowin O wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>>> I bring that up because they knew my warranty information so that's a
>>> downside of those warranties, which is our data is sold to other companies.
>>
>> So why did you buy "those warranties"?
>
> The warranty comes with the desktop which is why I said I'd rather they
> didn't give me a warranty and just gave me the money it cost them instead.

You didn't have to complete your personal information....

>
> You buy the computer from Dell. Microsoft provides the support for the
> operating system and Dell provides the support for the hardware.
>
> Microsoft support is free and lasts longer than the hardware ever will.
> The hardware warranties are very short - maybe only two or three years.
>
> Even so, computer hardware rarely breaks, and if it does, you generally
> replace the board or monitor cheaper than it would cost for support.
>
> Paying extra for support is a waste of money for home computer users.

I get paid to support home computer users...

....so you clearly don't understand all of reality.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:

>> Paying extra for support is a waste of money for home computer users.
>
> I get paid to support home computer users...

I'll clarify my statement then...

Since Windows is supported for free and since even the hardware device
drivers are provided for free for longer than you'll have the computer,
paying extra for support is a waste of money for most home Windows users.

On 2023-05-27 12:52, Eowin O wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>>> Paying extra for support is a waste of money for home computer users.
>>
>> I get paid to support home computer users...
>
> I'll clarify my statement then...
>
> Since Windows is supported for free and since even the hardware device
> drivers are provided for free for longer than you'll have the computer,
> paying extra for support is a waste of money for most home Windows users.

"Windows is supported for free" is it?

You can call up Microsoft with any problem you're having with software
and get free support for life?

I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:

>> Since Windows is supported for free and since even the hardware device
>> drivers are provided for free for longer than you'll have the computer,
>> paying extra for support is a waste of money for most home Windows users.
>
> "Windows is supported for free" is it?
>
> You can call up Microsoft with any problem you're having with software
> and get free support for life?
>
> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.

You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.

Take Windows 10 for example, which Microsoft released to the general public
in July 2015 and which will reach end of support on October 14, 2025.

That's longer than most people keep a computer (not because the hardware
dies, but because better or faster hardware often comes out in that time).

Likewise with hardware device drivers, which are supported for even longer.

On 2023-05-27 13:09, Eowin O wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>>> Since Windows is supported for free and since even the hardware device
>>> drivers are provided for free for longer than you'll have the computer,
>>> paying extra for support is a waste of money for most home Windows users.
>>
>> "Windows is supported for free" is it?
>>
>> You can call up Microsoft with any problem you're having with software
>> and get free support for life?
>>
>> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.
>
> You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.
>
> Take Windows 10 for example, which Microsoft released to the general public
> in July 2015 and which will reach end of support on October 14, 2025.
>
> That's longer than most people keep a computer (not because the hardware
> dies, but because better or faster hardware often comes out in that time).
>
> Likewise with hardware device drivers, which are supported for even longer.

So when you say "support" you mean "operating system updates and fixes".

Got it.

On 2023-05-27, Eowin O <eowinoreilly@nospam.edu> wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>>> Since Windows is supported for free and since even the hardware
>>> device drivers are provided for free for longer than you'll have the
>>> computer, paying extra for support is a waste of money for most home
>>> Windows users.
>>
>> "Windows is supported for free" is it?
>>
>> You can call up Microsoft with any problem you're having with
>> software and get free support for life?
>>
>> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.
>
> You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.

TIL hot fixes equals support. Who knew? 🤡

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> said:

>>> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.
>>
>> You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.
>
> TIL hot fixes equals support.

What would a Windows home owner need for support that they can't do easy?

The only support a Windows 10 owner can't do themselves is write the
bugfixes & drivers which they have freely got from Microsoft since 2015.

On 2023-05-28 12:28, Eowin O wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> said:
>
>>>> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.
>>>
>>> You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.
>>
>> TIL hot fixes equals support.
>
> What would a Windows home owner need for support that they can't do easy?

Why is it that so many people have some facility with technology don't
get that MOST PEOPLE DON'T???

>
> The only support a Windows 10 owner can't do themselves is write the
> bugfixes & drivers which they have freely got from Microsoft since 2015.

Seriously?

You think that the dividing line is WRITING CODE?

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:

>>>>> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.
>>>
>>> TIL hot fixes equals support.
>>
>> What would a Windows home owner need for support that they can't do easy?
>
> Why is it that so many people have some facility with technology don't
> get that MOST PEOPLE DON'T???

Windows 10 has been supported since 2015 with the only things that a home
user needs from Microsoft support - and that has always been totally free.

If someone really needs to pay for someone else to set up their Windows 10
computer for them, then that alone is indicative of a far bigger problem.

>
>>
>> The only support a Windows 10 owner can't do themselves is write the
>> bugfixes & drivers which they have freely got from Microsoft since 2015.
>
> Seriously?

If there is a Windows 10 home computer owner who "seriously" requires
paying someone for support - then that's an indication of a bigger problem.

>
> You think that the dividing line is WRITING CODE?

If support for the operating system doesn't last for the decade or more
that Microsoft typically provides, then and only then might a typical home
user need to pay for extra support.

Most, after the ten years of free support are up are usually given the
opportunity to move to the next version of the operating system (like they
were with all Windows versions to date, assuming hardware compatibility).

That means Windows free support then lasts for twenty years (at a minimum).
Why would you pay for twenty years of support when it's offered for free?

On 2023-05-28 15:51, Eowin O wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>>>>>> I'd like to see the Microsoft source for that claim.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need to call up Microsoft to get all the latest hot fixes.
>>>>
>>>> TIL hot fixes equals support.
>>>
>>> What would a Windows home owner need for support that they can't do easy?
>>
>> Why is it that so many people have some facility with technology don't
>> get that MOST PEOPLE DON'T???
>
> Windows 10 has been supported since 2015 with the only things that a home
> user needs from Microsoft support - and that has always been totally free.

If you imagine that computers never go wrong in ways that:

1. A software patch doesn't fix.

2. Ordinary people don't understand...

....you're a moron.

>
> If someone really needs to pay for someone else to set up their Windows 10
> computer for them, then that alone is indicative of a far bigger problem.

How are your auto mechanic skills?

>
>>
>>>
>>> The only support a Windows 10 owner can't do themselves is write the
>>> bugfixes & drivers which they have freely got from Microsoft since 2015.
>>
>> Seriously?
>
> If there is a Windows 10 home computer owner who "seriously" requires
> paying someone for support - then that's an indication of a bigger problem.
>
>>
>> You think that the dividing line is WRITING CODE?
>
> If support for the operating system doesn't last for the decade or more
> that Microsoft typically provides, then and only then might a typical home
> user need to pay for extra support.
>
> Most, after the ten years of free support are up are usually given the
> opportunity to move to the next version of the operating system (like they
> were with all Windows versions to date, assuming hardware compatibility).
>
> That means Windows free support then lasts for twenty years (at a minimum).
> Why would you pay for twenty years of support when it's offered for free?

You're a moron.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:

> You're a moron.

If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.

If a home user needs to /pay/ for support - that's indicative of a far
bigger problem since paying for home support is not needed for Win10
because Microsoft free support essentially lasts over 20 years or more.

After twenty years, the home user can buy a new computer out of all the
money cumulatively saved in not paying for unnecessary support contracts.

Eowin O <eowinoreilly@nospam.edu> wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>> You're a moron.
>
> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
> ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.

You are TOTALLY missing the point. There is WAY more to “support” than
Microsoft supplying Windows updates.

Most people have no clue what to do if their laptop won’t boot. If the
mouse stops working. If their home wi-fi is no longer working/they can’t
connect to it. The sound was working yesterday but not today. The text
on the screen is too small/too large. They can’t find a file they saved
yesterday. You ask them “What version of Windows are you using?” Answer:
“What is Windows?”

And on and on and on. These people HAVE to call someone. A friend. A
co-worker. Or a paid support person. Microsoft is not going to help with
these questions.

IOW, not everyone who uses a computer is a computer geek. Just like there
are people who drive a car every day but have no idea what to do (other
than call someone) if the car won’t start.

On 2023-05-28 16:16, Eowin O wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>> You're a moron.
>
> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
> ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.

Windows receives updates for something like ten years...

>
> If a home user needs to /pay/ for support - that's indicative of a far
> bigger problem since paying for home support is not needed for Win10
> because Microsoft free support essentially lasts over 20 years or more.
>
> After twenty years, the home user can buy a new computer out of all the
> money cumulatively saved in not paying for unnecessary support contracts.

....you're a moron for thinking that things never go wrong with computers
that can't be fixed with a software update.

On 2023-05-28 17:54, Bob Campbell wrote:
> Eowin O <eowinoreilly@nospam.edu> wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>>
>>> You're a moron.
>>
>> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
>> ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.
>
> You are TOTALLY missing the point. There is WAY more to “support” than
> Microsoft supplying Windows updates.
>
> Most people have no clue what to do if their laptop won’t boot. If the
> mouse stops working. If their home wi-fi is no longer working/they can’t
> connect to it. The sound was working yesterday but not today. The text
> on the screen is too small/too large. They can’t find a file they saved
> yesterday. You ask them “What version of Windows are you using?” Answer:
> “What is Windows?”
>
> And on and on and on. These people HAVE to call someone. A friend. A
> co-worker. Or a paid support person. Microsoft is not going to help with
> these questions.
>
> IOW, not everyone who uses a computer is a computer geek. Just like there
> are people who drive a car every day but have no idea what to do (other
> than call someone) if the car won’t start.
>

Exactly correct.

Bob Campbell <nunya@none.none> said:

>>> You're a moron.
>>
>> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
>> ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.
>
> You are TOTALLY missing the point. There is WAY more to "support" than
> Microsoft supplying Windows updates.

What are you saying needs "support" that the user can't do by themself?

>
> Most people have no clue what to do if their laptop won't boot.

You backup your data (regularly, which is pretty easy to do with cloud
storage nowadays and then you follow the BSOD prompts if you need to.

Absolute worst case you buy a new hard drive & you reload Windows on it.
How hard is that?

> If the mouse stops working.

That's never a big deal, even for the most clueless user.
You try another mouse and/or you reload the drivers if you must.

If a mouse not working is your idea of a reason to buy support, maybe you
never considered the price of a mouse compared to that of a support call.

> If their home wi-fi is no longer working/they can't connect to it.

Every router has free support for the first year or two if you call them up
and they walk you through the setup & then it's always the same things.

The clock starts on the first call - which gives you even more than that.
It's not hard to debug Wi-Fi issues when you set it up in the first place.

> The sound was working yesterday but not today.

Reload the drivers. Delete them. Reload again. Plug in the speakers.
Use a second set of speakers. Double check with a set of USB headphones.

If this is your idea of why people need to pay for support, maybe you
should look up how cheap a set of powered USB speakers are for a PC.

> The text on the screen is too small/too large.

What? If you can't change something like that, you have bigger problems.

> They can't find a file they saved yesterday.

Windows has a built-in search you know.

> You ask them "What version of Windows are you using?" Answer:
> "What is Windows?"

Doesn't matter what version they're running. A simple winver/version
command shows it anyway - so it's not hard to tell them how to do it.

> And on and on and on. These people HAVE to call someone. A friend. A
> co-worker. Or a paid support person. Microsoft is not going to help with
> these questions.

These are the kinds of issues NOBODY should have, and if they do, they have
much bigger problems since none of what you said is even slightly hard.

What kind of people do you deal with anyway?

> IOW, not everyone who uses a computer is a computer geek. Just like there
> are people who drive a car every day but have no idea what to do (other
> than call someone) if the car won't start.

To pay for a full-time support to be on call will be much more expensive in
both the short and long term than just googling how to fix the PC problem.

Windows is supported for about ten years and then you can often load the
next version for another ten years of free software & driver support.

What kind of people do you associate with that can't find their own files
or replace the mouse and/or speakers such that they pay someone else to do
it for them?

If they can't do that without paid help, they have bigger problems overall.

On 2023-05-28 21:47, Eowin O wrote:
> Bob Campbell <nunya@none.none> said:
>
>>>> You're a moron.
>>>
>>> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
>>> ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.
>>
>> You are TOTALLY missing the point. There is WAY more to "support" than
>> Microsoft supplying Windows updates.
>
> What are you saying needs "support" that the user can't do by themself?

First of all, "themselves".

Next, I make a living on all the things that users can't do by themselves.

>
>>
>> Most people have no clue what to do if their laptop won't boot.
>
> You backup your data (regularly, which is pretty easy to do with cloud
> storage nowadays and then you follow the BSOD prompts if you need to.
>
> Absolute worst case you buy a new hard drive & you reload Windows on it.
> How hard is that?

And if the reason it won't boot is also some information you've backed up?

>
>> If the mouse stops working.
>
> That's never a big deal, even for the most clueless user.
> You try another mouse and/or you reload the drivers if you must.

Speaking like a knowledgeable user...

....and not realizing that there are unknowledgeable users.

Simple fact:

I technically provide support to both Windows and Mac clients...

....but I would go broke if I needed to depend on the Mac clients needs.

>
> If a mouse not working is your idea of a reason to buy support, maybe you
> never considered the price of a mouse compared to that of a support call.
>
>> If their home wi-fi is no longer working/they can't connect to it.
>
> Every router has free support for the first year or two if you call them up
> and they walk you through the setup & then it's always the same things.

What if it's more than a year?

>
> The clock starts on the first call - which gives you even more than that.
> It's not hard to debug Wi-Fi issues when you set it up in the first place.

It's not hard for knowledgeable users.

>
>> The sound was working yesterday but not today.
>
> Reload the drivers. Delete them. Reload again. Plug in the speakers.
> Use a second set of speakers. Double check with a set of USB headphones.

Most users...

....the VAST majority...

....have no idea what a "driver" is, let alone how to reload one.

Etc.

On 2023-05-29, Bob Campbell <nunya@none.none> wrote:
> Eowin O <eowinoreilly@nospam.edu> wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>>
>>> You're a moron.
>>
>> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported
>> for ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then
>> we're done.
>
> You are TOTALLY missing the point. There is WAY more to “support”
> than Microsoft supplying Windows updates.
>
> Most people have no clue what to do if their laptop won’t boot. If
> the mouse stops working. If their home wi-fi is no longer
> working/they can’t connect to it. The sound was working yesterday but
> not today. The text on the screen is too small/too large. They
> can’t find a file they saved yesterday. You ask them “What version of
> Windows are you using?” Answer: “What is Windows?”
>
> And on and on and on. These people HAVE to call someone. A friend.
> A co-worker. Or a paid support person. Microsoft is not going to
> help with these questions.

And Microsoft will charge you to even ask those questions in the first
place.

Apple doesn't charge - technical support is *free* for the life of the
product.

And it should also be noted that Mac users don't need as much technical
support as Windows users:

IBM employees with Macs call for tech support significantly less than PC users
<https://www.imore.com/ibm-employees-macs-call-tech-support-significantly-less-pc-users>
---
Speaking at the JAMF Nation User Conference, IBM's Vice President of
Workplace-as-a-Service, Fletcher Previn, noted that, not only is IBM
deploying a large number of Macs to employees, but those employees are
significantly less likely to call the help desk for support when
compared to the company's PC users.
---

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> And Microsoft will charge you to even ask those questions in the first
> place.

I only called Microsoft twice for support and both were excellent and free.
I've only called Dell once. And Netgear once. All were excellent and free.

> Apple doesn't charge - technical support is *free* for the life of the
> product.

I only called Microsoft twice in my life and both times it was free.

Once was in 2012 or so when the cloud archive for Office 2010 Home &
Student wouldn't install and Microsoft FedEx'd me a brand new CD which did.

Another time I wanted to install Office 2007 in 2017 and they had just
removed the archive, so Microsoft support logged into my computer (via
something like Teamviewer) and installed it for me from their archives.

Only once did I call Dell, which was when Windows 8 came out and they had
removed the Start Menu and Dell did the same thing of remote installations.

Netgear answered my question which turned out to be a firmware bug that
they provided a workaround for until newer firmware (years later) fixed it.

> And it should also be noted that Mac users don't need as much technical
> support as Windows users:
>
> IBM employees with Macs call for tech support significantly less than PC users
> <https://www.imore.com/ibm-employees-macs-call-tech-support-significantly-less-pc-users>

Corporate support is completely different than support for home systems.
For a whole bunch of reasons that should be obvious to anyone out there.

For example, a lot of times the only Macs are in the marketing group which
is usually much smaller than the rest of the staff on Microsoft Office.

Look for a statistic on home support as I'd be interested in what you find.

On 5/27/2023 12:05 PM, Eowin O wrote:
> On 24-05-2023 16:53 Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> I can say with certainty that Macs will save you money on support.
>
> Most home computer owners never spend a dime on support.
>
> If software or hardware breaks, they google for the solution and they fix
> it themselves. Hardware they often replace. Software they reload & test.
>
> I always thought those 3 year Windows warranty periods were too long since
> I'd rather they gave me money off on the device since I'll never call them.

I once read somewhere that the cost of a single support call to the
manufacturer wiped out the profit on a computer system. Don't know if
that's really true.

But you're correct, very few individuals pay for support on either
Windows or Mac computers. Everyone "knows a guy."

In the corporate world there are IT departments that deal with
networking, security, updates to applications packages, etc.. Perhaps
there might be some savings if a company was able to use Macs, though
there are very few such companies since most corporate applications are
Windows-only.

Last month I was driving back to the Bay Area from Sacramento and one
guy in the car had an hour long support call to someone trying to
restore lost Microsoft Office files on her Mac, which she thought had
been automatically backed up to the Apple cloud, but apparently had not
been. Had she been using Google Docs this problem would not have happened.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 5/28/2023 4:16 PM, Eowin O wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> said:
>
>> You're a moron.
>
> If that's your response to the observation that Windows is supported for
> ten years for free & then usually for another ten years, then we're done.

LOL. As you stated, support generally continues for far longer than
promised. Microsoft even has issued updates for XP, for which they
officially dropped support long ago. XP is still heavily used in
industrial systems like POS terminals, electronic signage, and IOT.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards