On 1/24/23 21:25, David Ritz wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 14:20 +0100,
> in article <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>,
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>> On 23/01/2023 21:46, David Ritz wrote:
>
>>> On Monday, 23 January 2023 20:06 -0000,
>>> in article <z8dmrhuM9xNk7FY=M@bongo-ra.co>,
>>> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:03:52 -0600
>>>> David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> You will never find an article posted only to rec.arts.books,
>>>>> in comp.lang.c++.
>
>>>> Not under normal circumstances but the claim is that a temporary
>>>> glitch on eternal-september caused it to happen and that David
>>>> Brown saw it with his own eyes.
>
>>> I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious,
>>> unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error.
>
>> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
>
> While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the
> other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw.

He's posted a screenshot of what he "believes" he saw. Do you claim that
the screenshot is a forgery?

Snipe posted a message pointing out that the newsgroup
eternal-september.support had messages in it from the system
administrators acknowledging that there had been some server glitches
recently.

Looking at that newsgroup, it appears that they've had a flurry of
messages about a variety of server problems for a week now, and took the
server down to resolve the problems a few days ago. As far as I can
tell, they do not mention this particular glitch in that newsgroup, but
the other glitches they've had around the same time makes it more
plausible that this particular incident may also have been the result of
a server glitch.

> What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed
> it on ES? Show me.

According to David's own message with the ID
<tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>

the message-id was
36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com

Which matches exactly the message id you give:

> DR> Based on the References header of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co>
> DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>):
> DR>
> DR> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
> DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>) posted to
> DR> rec.arts.books, only: strictly limited to a single newsgroup by G2's
> DR> http2nntp interface. The article was posted using the GG posting
> DR> account associated with the valid ibshambat@gmail.com email address.
>
> This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in
> rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except
> as quoted, in full:

Since David asserted that what he saw was a message header list that
matched the message actually posted by Muttley to comp.lang.c++, and
that the corresponding message body had headers that matched the message
actually posted by Ilya Shambat to rec.arts.books, that is consistent
with what you saw.
What newsserver did you use to view those messages? If the server
problems mentioned in eternal-september.support are in fact relevant,
you SHOULDN'T be seeing the same thing he does, unless you're using
eternal-september as your server.
I didn't see that message, despite the fact that I do use
eternal-september.org, but that's because Muttley's on my killfile, so I
can't personally confirm what David is saying.

On 25/01/2023 01:17, Sn!pe wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Now, it is possible that someone from news.admin.net-abuse.usenet can
>> give some useful insight into how the glitch could have occurred, or if
>> such things have happened before, or if it should be reported back to
>> news.eternal-september.org. That would be useful. Telling us again
>>
>
> If you read e-s.support you would know the definitive answer.
> AIUI the overview database became desynchronised from the
> main db (I don't know why). Ray, the admin, took the server
> down for three hours to resynchronise. See:-
>
> Message-ID: <m27cxipaip.fsf@raybanana.net>
>
> <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167460564300>
>

Thanks for that. That confirms the matter - it was a server glitch,
which confused people and led to inappropriate posts, misunderstandings
and unfounded accusations. And the newsserver admin is dealing with it.

I'd rather not get involved in the e-s.support group - it is not
something I am particularly interested in or knowledgeable about. But
if you think anything I wrote previously in this thread describing the
symptoms, or the screenshot I posted, would be of any help to Ray then
please feel free to pass it on to him.

On 25/01/2023 03:25, David Ritz wrote:

(snipping a bit for brevity)

>
>>> I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious,
>>> unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error.
>
>> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
>
> While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the
> other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw.
>

Again, you are wrong. I am not mistaken, and this has been confirmed in
several ways. Please read my other posts in this thread to see my
descriptions of the problem and how it appeared, details of the message
ID's, a description of how to replicate the issue, and a screenshot
showing it.

Oh, wait - you /did/ read them, as you quoted them below. And yet you
deny them blindly.

There was also a post from Sn!pe confirming that the admin of the
news.eternal-september.org was aware there had been a synchronisation
issue between the overview database and the main message database on
that server - /exactly/ the kind of server glitch that could lead to the
effect seen.

> What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed
> it on ES? Show me.
>

See above - I did.

> In this specific incidence, I have yet to see anything which supports
> this notion. Show me.
>
>> If you think servers - hardware and/or software - can never fail,
>> you are naïve beyond comprehension.
>
> I am not so inclined. Software and hardware failures are a certainty.

And yet you conclude - with certainty - that there was no failure here?

>
>> If you think it is appropriate to accuse one person you have never
>> met of lying, and another of trolling, based solely on your belief
>> in the perfection of all Usenet servers, then you should not be
>> involving yourself in any kind of abuse resolution or advice. You
>> should be asking questions first - not passing arbitrary judgement.
>
> Being confused and intentionally spreading falsehoods are different
> things. You are simply mistaken.
>

Fair enough.

> To review:
>
> <02q63458-1orq-4135-9358-994371poq6o8@zvaqfcevat.pbz>
> <(http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167454810700
>
> DR> Based on the References header of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co>
> DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>):
> DR>
> DR> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
> DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>) posted to
> DR> rec.arts.books, only: strictly limited to a single newsgroup by G2's
> DR> http2nntp interface. The article was posted using the GG posting
> DR> account associated with the valid ibshambat@gmail.com email address.
>
> This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in
> rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except
> as quoted, in full:

Incorrect. You are mistaken.

The article did not appear in comp.lang.c++ on any of the newsservers
/you/ looked at. It /did/ appear in comp.lang.c++ on
news.eternal-september.org.

I do not know if it also appears in rec.arts.books on
news.eternal-september.org - I have not looked at that group.

(It also appeared in a quotation in the post made by Bonita. That was
made as a normal post by Bonita, quoting the message as it appeared on
news.eternal-september.org.)

>
> I am asking you to show me the M-ID for the article, "Change and
> Choice," in comp.lang.c++.
>
> AGAIN, <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> never
> appeared in comp.lang.c++. No matter how long or hard one looks for
> this article in comp.lang.c++, on any NNTP server, one will not find
> it.
>

Incorrect. Again, you are mistaken. It appears on the server
news.eternal-september.org in the group comp.lang.c++, exactly as I said
it does. This is the result of a server glitch - a synchronisation
issue between the overview database and the main database.

I believe I am safe in asserting that you have not checked /every/ NNTP
server for this post. In particular, I am entirely confident that you
have not looked on the relevant server - news.eternal-september.org.

> If you believe otherwise, show me; make me eat my words.
>

I have shown you. I have given a screenshot, and detailed instructions
on how to see the problem for yourself. That requires you to make an
account on news.eternal-september.org so that you can see the problem there.

I hope that you will do so. You will learn a little about what can go
wrong in Usenet servers, and perhaps also why it is not good to jump to
conclusions or make too many claims before you have looked at the details.

> See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>.
>

I am aware of how the messages appear on other servers (I used Google
Groups to check, for practical convenience). Other servers did not see
the mismatch between the overview header and the message body.

>
> NOTE: I am not calling anyone a troll. This followup, purporting to
> be from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, IS the troll: bait trailed behind a
> boat, in order to catch fish. It was quite a success, as the bait was
> taken, hook, line and sinker, by several of the unsuspecting, if
> somewhat naïve readers of comp.lang.c++.
>
> ADDITIONALLY, I have nothing to irrefutably identify this post as
> actually being originated by Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, as ES users are
> able to put pretty much whatever they desire into a From header. As
> stated previously, it may or may not be from Bonita.
>
> If it is from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, fine. If not, and
> Bonita.Montero@gmail.com is an address active and assigned to another
> Gmail user, there may be a basis for forgery complaint.

We are familiar with Bonita in comp.lang.c++. Yes, she posted it. No,
it was not a troll - it was a somewhat snarky response to what she
thought was a mixed up post by Muttley. There are plenty of people here
who dislike some of Bonita's habits - but I have no doubts at all that
she genuinely believed Muttley had written that rambling essay for
rec.arts.books, and had accidentally cross-posted it to comp.lang.c++.
I thought so too, when I first saw it - people accidentally posting to
the wrong group is much more common than server glitches.

Bonita is guilty of blindly quoting an entire OT post and top-posting a
one-line comment on it. That's not good Usenet etiquette. But it was
not trolling, forgery, or intentional misrepresentation - and I do not
like to see anyone falsely accused of that. It is correct that Muttley
did not write the original essay - and it is therefore incorrect for
Bonita's post to have the attribution "Muttley wrote ...". But that
attribution is because the newsserver Bonita used,
news.eternal-september.org, had attached the essay message body to the
overview header of a post Muttley /did/ write.

> ÖT> BM probably made it up. I can find no server with "quoted" post.
>
> As demonstrated, _this_ was the glitch. It involved neither software
> nor hardware. This was a wetware glitch, likely based on a search in
> the wrong newsgroup..

Incorrect. Again, people who are not using news.eternal-september.org
did not see the quoted post. People who use news.eternal-september.org,
did see it.

>
>> There are limits to how much I can "show you" what happened.
>
> You don't have much to show me, then, do you?
>

I later found I could show you more - including a screenshot for your
convenience.

>> But I can describe things in as much detail as practical.
>
> Your descriptions must be taken with a grain of salt, as I am unable
> to verify your interpretation.
>

No salt is needed. Unless you have already jumped to a conclusion and
are unwilling to look at evidence and information, then you should have
realised that my experience of the post is different from yours. This
should lead to a line of inquiry of /why/ it is different. Was it a
temporary thing? Something local to my computer? An issue with my
newsreader client, or with the server I used? How many people saw what
I saw, how many saw something different? What are the common factors
distinguishing the groups?

Of course, that requires you to be of the "Sometimes I don't know
everything" and "Sometimes different people see different things"
schools. Being of the "Show me" school doesn't help if you are not
willing to look when people show you.

I had already figured out, before the thread was cross-posted to
news.admin.net-abuse.usenet, that this was a server glitch that had not
propagated to all servers - though I did not know at the time that it
was found only on the one news.eternal-september.org server.

>> I use news.eternal-september.org as a Usenet server, with Thunderbird as
>> the client.
>
> Both are irrelevant.

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 20:46 +0100,
in article <tqpcje$8v5p$3@dont-email.me>,
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:20:19 +0100
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

>>> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
>>> news.eternal-september.org server. [...]

>>> Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely.
>>> The same glitch occurring for at least three different people is,
>>> however, highly unlikely.

>> It could be a Thunderbird issue. Note the following :

>> All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but
>> close. I assume you have tried to reproduce the steps which
>> originally led you to see the defective post and you can no longer
>> reproduce them.

> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly
> the same effect.

> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of
> the broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because
> I /can/ replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.

> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have
> not used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking
> the link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a
> quick and easy way to make a link to the screenshot.

> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>

It appears that Thunderbird and/or Pan is/are playing silly buggers
with threading. We'd have a better idea of what was going on, if the
display headers included the Newsgroups information.

Better still, what do you see, when you look at the headers? What do
you see in the Newsgroups header? What do you see in the Xref header?
(The Xref header is added by the NNTP server, from which the article
is being retrieved.)

If only rec.arts.books is listed in the Xref header, that article
appears only there on the ES spool. If comp.lang.c++ is also
included, it indicates a server side error.

Speaking of Thunderbird flakiness, while "Re. Compu..." appears in the
article list, while the Subject of the displayed article clearly shows
"Change and Choice."

--
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 20:46:54 +0100
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume
> > you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective
> > post and you can no longer reproduce them.
> >
>
> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the
> same effect.
>
> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the
> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.

I thought so because it is one of the first things you should have mentioned
in the very first post you talked about a server glitch. You are a technical
person , you *know* that for bugs , glitches , etc. one ideally should
mention precise steps which would allow one to reproduce the problem. So I
can't imagine what you were thinking in failing to do so. It couldn't have
been for lack of time because you posted some very long responses which were
light on technical content but made no mention whatsoever of the very
important fact that you could consistently reproduce the problem. In fact ,
in at least 4 posts you said "a server fault" or something analogous without
mentioning that there was one specific server on which you saw the issue. I
was actually wondering what the hell was happening and you weren't giving
specifics.

> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not
> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the
> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
>
> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>

This isn't very helpful and in particular it doesn't help to distinguish
whether it's a server issue or a Thunderbird issue. Just because Thunderbird
threads posts in a certain way or puts some post under a certain group ,
does not imply that the server has the same view of things. Perhaps Thunderbird
received correct responses from the server and messed things up. Below I will
give 2 precise ways to reproduce the problem which clearly show that it's an
eternal-september issue. Before doing so I will note that when you want to
talk about the date of a message it is best to quote the following 2 lines from
the header

Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000

instead of saying for example (from <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>)
"timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31" .If Thunderbird does not allow you to see the
header exactly as it received it from the server then it's no good for
diagnosing issues.

For both of the following methods one must have an eternal-september account
since this is the server which displays the issue.

Method 1

You need to have the lynx text based browser installed. You do

lynx news://news.eternal-september.org/comp.lang.c++/137660-137665

..This asks lynx to contact news.eternal-september.org and fetch article
numbers 137660-137665 from the group comp.lang.c++ .Note that article
numbers are server and group specific , a different server might not have
articles with such numbers or they might refer to different posts. But the
important point here is that whatever posts the server returns , they must
have been posted to comp.lang.c++ , possibly among other groups. The first
post you will see is

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Change and Choice
From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>

..Note that it was not (cross)posted on comp.lang.c++ so it should have
never been returned. The last post you will see in the above list is

=====
From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>

[...]

Are you the twin-brother of Amine Moulay Ramdane ?

Am 19.01.2023 um 10:31 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
[...]
=====

..This correctly appears in the response by the server since it was crossposted
on comp.lang.c++ .

Method 2

You have to run a Python script which I will give below. It runs on Python
2.5 .Yes it's an old version but it's the only one I have handy and I haven't
bothered to learn Python 3.whatever .But the script should run on the newest
Python with little or no modifications. You run the script with

python path-to-script username password

where username and password are the ones you have for eternal-september .
The script will append its output to file /tmp/server-glitch-2 .

==== Script starts on the next line
import os
import string
import sys
import nntplib
import datetime

class TerminateError(Exception) :
def __init__(self , message) :
self.mes = message

def __str__(self) : return self.mes

def terminate(*args) :
global util_name

mes = util_name + " :"
for a in args :
mes = mes + " " + str(a)
raise TerminateError(mes)

util_name = "server-glitch"
server = "news.eternal-september.org"
separ = '\n@@@ \n\n'
port = 119

if len(sys.argv) != 3 :
terminate("2 arguments required : username and password")

username = sys.argv[1]
password = sys.argv[2]

fnobj = open("/tmp/server-glitch-2" , "a")
now = datetime.datetime.now()
fnobj.write("Starting at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") + '\n\n')

try :
connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)

response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
fnobj.write("Response choosing comp.lang.c++ was\n\n" + str(response) + "\n\n")
response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
fnobj.write("Response asking for range of articles was\n\n" +
str(response) + "\n\n")

for art in overviews :
fnobj.write("Article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n")
fnobj.write(str(art[1]) + "\n\n")

for art in overviews :
response , number , id , content = connection.article(str(art[0]))
if id == '<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>' or \
id == '<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>' :
fnobj.write("Printing article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n\n")
for l in content :
fnobj.write(l + '\n')
fnobj.write(separ)
else :
fnobj.write("Skipping article with id\n " + id + separ)
connection.quit()
except nntplib.NNTPError,exception :
terminate("NNTP error\n" , "Exception was\n" , exception)

now = datetime.datetime.now()
fnobj.write("Terminating at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") +
'\n\n =======\n\n')
fnobj.close
====

The important points are the following :

server = "news.eternal-september.org"

connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)

response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")

It connects to eternal-september and goes to comp.lang.c++ .

response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")

Asks for list of articles from 137660 to 137665 , same numbers as with
lynx above.

Then it goes through the articles one by one and puts in
/tmp/server-glitch-2 the articles with IDs
<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> and
<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> .It puts the articles exactly as it receives
them from the header. Again you will see that the Shambat article has

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books

so it should not have appeared under comp.lang.c++ regardless of what
range of articles we asked for.

--
Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand
what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not
understand.
Putt's law

On 25/01/2023 17:39, David Ritz wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 20:46 +0100,
> in article <tqpcje$8v5p$3@dont-email.me>,
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>

>> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
>
> It appears that Thunderbird and/or Pan is/are playing silly buggers
> with threading. We'd have a better idea of what was going on, if the
> display headers included the Newsgroups information.
>

The clients are not playing silly buggers. Do you /really/ think two
completely independent newsclients would show the same incorrect
information about one - and only one - particular article in one thread
in one group from one server, and get everything else right (including
getting the article right when using a different newsserver) ?

I'm at a loss to comprehend the level of denialism here.

> Better still, what do you see, when you look at the headers? What do
> you see in the Newsgroups header? What do you see in the Xref header?
> (The Xref header is added by the NNTP server, from which the article
> is being retrieved.)
>

I recommend you check these things for yourself.

However, I will do my best to answer your questions.

In the overview, or "header" pane of pan, the article in question is
says it is from Muttley with the subject "Re: Compute Unique Numbers in
a Set". The message id is "tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org". The
timestamp is 19.01.2023 10:31, and it is 22 lines.

Clicking on that gives the full article (headers plus body) that
news.eternal-september.org returns - Message id
"36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com", from Ilya
Shambat, newsgroups rec.arts.books. Xref:
reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566.

Basically, the overview provided by the server (I guess by the "OVER"
NNTP command) looks fine and appropriate, and is what you'll see from
other servers. But the article content (I guess from the "ARTICLE" NNTP
command) for the message is really a completely different message.

It's the symptoms you'd expect from a mismatch between the overview
database and the main message database, as mentioned by the
news.eternal-september.org admin.

> If only rec.arts.books is listed in the Xref header, that article
> appears only there on the ES spool. If comp.lang.c++ is also
> included, it indicates a server side error.
>

Only rec.arts.books is there - so there is a server side error. The
server should not have returned that message when asked for the article
with the message id of the comp.lang.c++ header.

> Speaking of Thunderbird flakiness, while "Re. Compu..." appears in the
> article list, while the Subject of the displayed article clearly shows
> "Change and Choice."
>

It clearly does, yes. That clearly shows the server has given the wrong
information.

The client gets the common headers twice for each article. It gets them
once from the overview (when the client is "downloading headers"), no
doubt using the "OVER" command. It gets them a second time when
downloading the body of the article (presumably with "ARTICLE"). When
the server is working correctly, these will contain the same information
- it therefore does not matter which one the client uses to show the
subject.

In this case, because of the server glitch, the client gets conflicting
information. One set is for one article, the other set is for a
different article that the server sent by mistake.

Nothing here indicates Thunderbird flakiness or flaws - it behaves
identically to Pan, and it is entirely correct and sensible behaviour
that results from trusting the server to give correct information.

If you want a better idea of what is going on, make an account on
news.eternal-september.org and try it yourself. It is surely less
effort than asking these things.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:00:29 +0100
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> In the overview, or "header" pane of pan, the article in question is
> says it is from Muttley with the subject "Re: Compute Unique Numbers in
> a Set". The message id is "tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org". The
> timestamp is 19.01.2023 10:31, and it is 22 lines.

I note that <tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org> no longer exists on
news.eternal-september.org .It exists on other servers , for example
news.cyber23.de .

On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote:
>
> I recommend you check these things for yourself.

I have done it on MixMin. See below
>
> However, I will do my best to answer your questions.
>
> In the overview, or "header" pane of pan, the article in question is
> says it is from Muttley with the subject "Re: Compute Unique Numbers
> in a Set".  The message id is "tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org".  The
> timestamp is 19.01.2023 10:31, and it is 22 lines.
>
> Clicking on that gives the full article (headers plus body) that
> news.eternal-september.org returns - Message id
> "36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com", from Ilya
> Shambat, newsgroups rec.arts.books.  Xref:
> reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566.

No it's not. See the full message here:

> Path: news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!QImplQW63EVMF2Hp+OxW0A.user.46.165.242.91.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++
> Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:31:52 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
> Message-ID: <tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> References: <todbqe$16sg$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tpdfp6$3osch$1@dont-email.me>
> <tpdim3$3p3kb$1@dont-email.me> <tpgsar$5mge$1@dont-email.me>
> <tphg58$866f$1@dont-email.me> <tpr12i$1i7r6$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq14n7$2cgbf$1@dont-email.me> <tq1770$2ch5a$2@dont-email.me>
> <ee5874c7-be6d-4bc5-902b-1a04bfa7003en@googlegroups.com>
> <tq32sn$2lmca$1@dont-email.me> <tq34ui$2lmca$2@dont-email.me>
> <tq3g9r$2nhg2$1@dont-email.me> <tq3k8q$2ngf9$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq3uhs$16if$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tq4an1$2s02t$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq5ln0$35a9d$1@dont-email.me> <tq5prq$1u45$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> <tq66tg$38bg3$1@dont-email.me>
> <3d614abf-c869-4288-8837-2a7e9c11050bn@googlegroups.com>
> <tq6g0v$39t2c$1@dont-email.me> <tq6iht$39uah$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq6kpf$1n24$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tq6l7g$3ap58$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq8dpr$c91$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tq8op8$t160$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq9605$1mq6$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tq966l$v9v8$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq96f8$1upf$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tq98fa$vli9$1@dont-email.me>
> <tq99d0$1ece$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> <tq99tp$vtqp$1@dont-email.me>
> Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="43850"; posting-host="QImplQW63EVMF2Hp+OxW0A.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
> X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
> Xref: news.mixmin.net comp.lang.c++:206390
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 18:23:55 +0100
> Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Am 18.01.2023 um 18:14 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> >
> >> I was simply making a point that if you don't care about actual randomness
> >> then standard RPGs are fine.
> >
> >With that ?
> >
> >| I'll say again - there is no such thing as random for formula generated
> >| "random" number sequences. Given the same start conditions the same
> >sequence
> >| will be generated whether its 2^19937 or 2^infinity. You'd be better
> >off using
> >| /dev/random, at least its entropy comes from nominally external sources so
> >| is unpredictable in a busy enviroment.
> >
> >Absolutely not.
>
> Really? How would go about predicting what packets will arrive on the network
> or when a user will press a key then?
>

Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims?

On 26/01/2023 00:49, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:00:29 +0100
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> In the overview, or "header" pane of pan, the article in question is
>> says it is from Muttley with the subject "Re: Compute Unique Numbers in
>> a Set". The message id is "tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org". The
>> timestamp is 19.01.2023 10:31, and it is 22 lines.
>
> I note that <tqb2m7$1aqa$1@gioia.aioe.org> no longer exists on
> news.eternal-september.org .It exists on other servers , for example
> news.cyber23.de .

This could be a result of the resynchronisation fix done on the server.
If the overview database and main database are out of sync, and they get
resynchronised, then one of them has to change. But I have no idea of
the details of how that might be done.

I doubt if the loss of Muttley's real message will be a big blow to
comp.lang.c++ followers using news.eternal-september.org.

On 26/01/2023 03:27, iKook wrote:
> On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote:
>>
>> I recommend you check these things for yourself.
>
> I have done it on MixMin. See below
>>

That might be useful for comparison.

> Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims?
>

Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch!

If you drive to the car workshop and tell them your car is making a
funny noise, would you be impressed if a whole bunch of mechanics rush
out and look at every other car in the car park? Then when they find
the other cars make no noise, they tell you it must be a troll in your car?

How is it that there are people in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet who have
supposedly all this "experience and expertise", and are willing to look
up messages all over the place and draw all sorts of conclusions about
people, articles, and servers - and yet none of them seems willing to
take a look at the server that had the glitch?

I've been involved in computers a /long/ time. A rare glitch on a
server does not surprise me. What /does/ surprise and frustrate me are
two things.

One is that so many people have been so quick to accuse and blame Bonita
of all sorts of things, without any consideration for alternative
explanations of events. That includes people who know her postings
well, and those who had not heard of her until this thread. Neither
groups have any excuse for their judgemental attitude.

The other is that so many apparent experts are determined to look
everywhere except where the problem lies. It apparently does not matter
what details I give, what explanations I post, what guides I give to
reproducing the problem so that you can see it for yourself. No,
apparently the "expert" handling is to ignore all I write, deny that
servers can ever have glitches, and ask for more evidence.

This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/ computer,
it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/ Usenet server.
Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message in question. It
should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it only takes one of
you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't trust or believe /me/).

If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking how
to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer.

On 25/01/2023 23:58, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 20:46:54 +0100
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>>> All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume
>>> you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective
>>> post and you can no longer reproduce them.
>>>
>>
>> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
>> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
>> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
>> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the
>> same effect.
>>
>> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the
>> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
>> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
>> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.
>
> I thought so because it is one of the first things you should have mentioned
> in the very first post you talked about a server glitch. You are a technical
> person , you *know* that for bugs , glitches , etc. one ideally should
> mention precise steps which would allow one to reproduce the problem.

If I had tested with Pan at that point, I would have mentioned it. I
have tested more as I investigated further - I have also learned from
other people's posts.

> So I
> can't imagine what you were thinking in failing to do so. It couldn't have
> been for lack of time because you posted some very long responses which were
> light on technical content but made no mention whatsoever of the very
> important fact that you could consistently reproduce the problem. In fact ,
> in at least 4 posts you said "a server fault" or something analogous without
> mentioning that there was one specific server on which you saw the issue. I
> was actually wondering what the hell was happening and you weren't giving
> specifics.
>

I have tried to give specifics as people have asked for them, as well as
guidance to reproduce the problem. At the start, however, I had no idea
how widespread the issue might have been - maybe it was temporary, maybe
it was related to the client, maybe it had propagated to all Usenet
servers. When I first saw it, I assumed it was local to my PC - it was
only gradually that I realised Bonita had seen the same glitch I had,
and it was not just on my system.

>> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not
>> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
>> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the
>> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
>> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
>>
>> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
>
> This isn't very helpful and in particular it doesn't help to distinguish
> whether it's a server issue or a Thunderbird issue. Just because Thunderbird

The screenshot is not Thunderbird, it is Pan. Thunderbird and Pan
appear to show threads in exactly the same way, as far as I could tell.

> threads posts in a certain way or puts some post under a certain group ,
> does not imply that the server has the same view of things. Perhaps Thunderbird
> received correct responses from the server and messed things up. Below I will
> give 2 precise ways to reproduce the problem which clearly show that it's an
> eternal-september issue. Before doing so I will note that when you want to
> talk about the date of a message it is best to quote the following 2 lines from
> the header
>
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
> Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
>
> instead of saying for example (from <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>)
> "timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31" .If Thunderbird does not allow you to see the
> header exactly as it received it from the server then it's no good for
> diagnosing issues.
>

Pan and Thunderbird are both perfectly good for diagnosing that there
was a ****ing server glitch that meant the wrong article was returned
for the message id in the header. I didn't know how to make Pan show
the message ID from the header until just recently. But you don't need
the id or other information to see that there is clearly a mismatch.

>
> For both of the following methods one must have an eternal-september account
> since this is the server which displays the issue.
>
> Method 1
>
> You need to have the lynx text based browser installed.

I haven't used it for years, but I do have it installed.

> You do
>
> lynx news://news.eternal-september.org/comp.lang.c++/137660-137665
>
> .This asks lynx to contact news.eternal-september.org and fetch article
> numbers 137660-137665 from the group comp.lang.c++ .Note that article
> numbers are server and group specific , a different server might not have
> articles with such numbers or they might refer to different posts. But the
> important point here is that whatever posts the server returns , they must
> have been posted to comp.lang.c++ , possibly among other groups.

Yes - assuming everything is working correctly at the server.

> The first
> post you will see is
>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
> Message-ID: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Change and Choice
> From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>
>
> .Note that it was not (cross)posted on comp.lang.c++ so it should have
> never been returned.

Correct. It should never have been there - it is a result of the glitch.

> The last post you will see in the above list is
>
> =====
> From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
> Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
> Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
> References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
>
> [...]
>
> Are you the twin-brother of Amine Moulay Ramdane ?
>
> Am 19.01.2023 um 10:31 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> [...]
> =====
>
> .This correctly appears in the response by the server since it was crossposted
> on comp.lang.c++ .
>

Yes, I can confirm this is all as you say.

> Method 2
>
> You have to run a Python script which I will give below. It runs on Python
> 2.5 .Yes it's an old version but it's the only one I have handy and I haven't
> bothered to learn Python 3.whatever .But the script should run on the newest
> Python with little or no modifications. You run the script with
>

I have Python 2.7, rather than 2.5, on this system. But it works fine
there too. Python was my first thought as a way to do a
newsreader-independent check of the issue (I had no idea that lynx could
handle the NNTP protocol). I hadn't bothered trying it because I had
confirmed the issue with a different newsreader (Pan).

But trying your script gives the expected result - the rec.arts.book
article is returned by the server when asking for articles that appear
in the overview data for comp.lang.c++.

Thanks for making these recipes and the script, and confirming the glitch.

> python path-to-script username password
>
> where username and password are the ones you have for eternal-september .
> The script will append its output to file /tmp/server-glitch-2 .
>
> ==== Script starts on the next line
> import os
> import string
> import sys
> import nntplib
> import datetime
>
> class TerminateError(Exception) :
> def __init__(self , message) :
> self.mes = message
>
> def __str__(self) : return self.mes
>
> def terminate(*args) :
> global util_name
>
> mes = util_name + " :"
> for a in args :
> mes = mes + " " + str(a)
> raise TerminateError(mes)
>
> util_name = "server-glitch"
> server = "news.eternal-september.org"
> separ = '\n@@@ \n\n'
> port = 119
>
> if len(sys.argv) != 3 :
> terminate("2 arguments required : username and password")
>
> username = sys.argv[1]
> password = sys.argv[2]
>
> fnobj = open("/tmp/server-glitch-2" , "a")
> now = datetime.datetime.now()
> fnobj.write("Starting at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") + '\n\n')
>
> try :
> connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
>
> response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
> fnobj.write("Response choosing comp.lang.c++ was\n\n" + str(response) + "\n\n")
> response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
> fnobj.write("Response asking for range of articles was\n\n" +
> str(response) + "\n\n")
>
> for art in overviews :
> fnobj.write("Article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n")
> fnobj.write(str(art[1]) + "\n\n")
>
> for art in overviews :
> response , number , id , content = connection.article(str(art[0]))
> if id == '<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>' or \
> id == '<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>' :
> fnobj.write("Printing article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n\n")
> for l in content :
> fnobj.write(l + '\n')
> fnobj.write(separ)
> else :
> fnobj.write("Skipping article with id\n " + id + separ)
> connection.quit()
> except nntplib.NNTPError,exception :
> terminate("NNTP error\n" , "Exception was\n" , exception)
>
> now = datetime.datetime.now()
> fnobj.write("Terminating at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") +
> '\n\n =======\n\n')
> fnobj.close
> ====
>
> The important points are the following :
>
> server = "news.eternal-september.org"
>
> connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
>
> response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
>
> It connects to eternal-september and goes to comp.lang.c++ .
>
> response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
>
> Asks for list of articles from 137660 to 137665 , same numbers as with
> lynx above.
>
> Then it goes through the articles one by one and puts in
> /tmp/server-glitch-2 the articles with IDs
> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> and
> <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> .It puts the articles exactly as it receives
> them from the header. Again you will see that the Shambat article has
>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
>
> so it should not have appeared under comp.lang.c++ regardless of what
> range of articles we asked for.
>

On 26/01/2023 08:44, David Brown wrote:
>
>
> Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch!
>
>

I tried but you need to sign up with them. This is not I can do now. We
just have to accept that servers can go wrong. AIOE is also down for the
past 3 or 4 days including their main website.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday, 26 January 2023 09:44 +0100,
in article <tqtehg$13som$3@dont-email.me>,
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

> This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/
> computer, it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/
> Usenet server. Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message
> in question. It should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it
> only takes one of you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't
> trust or believe /me/).

> If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking
> how to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer.

Headers provide clarity and tell a story.

Since the answers are in the headers, of the article on ES, providing
them might be useful. The overview headers, from which the news
client generates a threaded article list, are a subset of the full
headers.

I am particularly interested in the Newsgroups, References and Xref
headers.

I recommend using the View/Message Source (^U), rather than
View/Headers/All.

Whereas you read code. I read headers. Without sufficient
information, either of us is likely to make errors. I know I did, in
this case.

Bonita saw the essay article appearing in comp.lang.c++ and replied. That
reply indicates she found the essay out of place and looked up the actual
source of the plagiarized, copied and pasted text. What she didn't notice
was the cross-post.

$ telnet news.eternal-september.org 119
Trying 2a01:4f8:222:84::2...
Connected to reader01.eternal-september.org.
Escape character is '^]'.
200 reader01.eternal-september.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.8.0 (20220715 snapshot) ready (posting ok)
AUTHINFO USER [redacted]
381 Enter password
AUTHINFO PASS [redacted]
281 Authentication succeeded
HEAD <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
221 0 <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> head
X-Received: by 2002:a37:c13:0:b0:706:427f:5223 with SMTP id 19-20020a370c13000000b00706427f5223mr263068qkm.457.1674121321674;
Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2096:b0:364:3de2:bfe1 with SMTP id
s22-20020a056808209600b003643de2bfe1mr718766oiw.101.1674121321351; Thu, 19
Jan 2023 01:42:01 -0800 (PST)
Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!news.bbs.nz!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:8004:1160:28ef:d5ae:f4e8:3aac:6009;
posting-account=90ZYxQoAAAARzFPaCqTWUKRTGA9K_b9_
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:8004:1160:28ef:d5ae:f4e8:3aac:6009
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Change and Choice
From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566
..
GROUP rec.arts.books
211 4691 2359 26599 rec.arts.books
OVER 26566
224 Overview information for 26566 follows
26566 Change and Choice Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com> Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST) <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> 6706 91 Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566
..
GROUP comp.lang.c++
211 63384 23057 137920 comp.lang.c++
..
HEAD <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
221 0 <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> head
Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:42:03 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="d60884746d895ed8ca47bc72fc0457ae";
logging-data="1681452"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18J6P2KH2llFhvWVE1iFJYe+tuBgVnwBzU="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.6.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:uQB3MZbITntrXxJyecyiI2kbvjs=
In-Reply-To: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: de-DE
Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26567 comp.lang.c++:137665
..
OVER 137665
224 Overview information for 137665 follows
137665 Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100 <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me><36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> 6542 33 Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26567 comp.lang.c++:137665
..

While no longer available, I believe the Google Groups mystery article
included comp.lang.c++ in the overview headers of the article. It may
have also appeared in the Newsgroups header, but my time machine is in
the shop.

As Ray rebuilt the corrupted overview database, the *glitch* appears
rectified.

I'd like to apologize for my jumping to conclusions based on a lack of
direct evidence. I also created an E-S account, just for the telnet
access, at David Brown's recommendation.

I am sorry I jumped to conclusions, without having the evidence in
hand. I'll have to review *my* headers, now.

- --
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iF0EARECAB0WIQSc0FU3XAVGYDjSGUhSvCmZGhLe6wUCY9SgtgAKCRBSvCmZGhLe
6wNNAJ95kYb36kd7uaLlj7RGTolcM/Oc1gCgxeMOtogH8HOYcVpU9qpE76G1ZPM=
=adQ0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 28/01/2023 05:12, David Ritz wrote:
> On Thursday, 26 January 2023 09:44 +0100,
> in article <tqtehg$13som$3@dont-email.me>,
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>> This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/
>> computer, it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/
>> Usenet server. Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message
>> in question. It should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it
>> only takes one of you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't
>> trust or believe /me/).
>
>> If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking
>> how to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer.
>
> Headers provide clarity and tell a story.
>
> Since the answers are in the headers, of the article on ES, providing
> them might be useful. The overview headers, from which the news
> client generates a threaded article list, are a subset of the full
> headers.
>
> I am particularly interested in the Newsgroups, References and Xref
> headers.
>
> I recommend using the View/Message Source (^U), rather than
> View/Headers/All.

That is what I have generally done, though I did not always post all the
headers. (To be honest, I used "view source" because it is quicker to
use a shortcut key, rather than because I thought it would give more
information.)

>
> Whereas you read code. I read headers. Without sufficient
> information, either of us is likely to make errors. I know I did, in
> this case.
>

Sure. And we all get things wrong sometimes, or misunderstand - it's
particularly easy when dealing with people who are not familiar with all
the right terms or which details are important. (I am also a server and
network administrator, with plenty of experience of a variety of server
setups - but I have never had cause to learn about NNTP servers. And I
have plenty of experience of assuming the user is the problem, rather
than an issue with the server!)

>
> As Ray rebuilt the corrupted overview database, the *glitch* appears
> rectified.
>
> I'd like to apologize for my jumping to conclusions based on a lack of
> direct evidence. I also created an E-S account, just for the telnet
> access, at David Brown's recommendation.
>
> I am sorry I jumped to conclusions, without having the evidence in
> hand. I'll have to review *my* headers, now.
>

Thank you for saying that. I know I've learned a lot about Usenet from
this discussion, and I am glad to see others have learned something too.
Usenet seems to be an extraordinarily robust system, that has run for
decades with very little in the way of technical problems (merely human
problems). It makes sense to consider such server glitches as so
unlikely that you have to eliminate other explanations first - but it
turns out that one in a million chance events do happen sometimes!

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 05:20:19 -0800, David Brown wrote:

> On 23/01/2023 21:46, David Ritz wrote:
> > On Monday, 23 January 2023 20:06 -0000,
> > in article <z8dmrhuM9xNk7FY=M@bongo-ra.co>,
> > Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:03:52 -0600
> > > David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > > > You will never find an article posted only to rec.arts.books, in
> > > > comp.lang.c++.
> >
> > > Not under normal circumstances but the claim is that a temporary
> > > glitch on eternal-september caused it to happen and that David Brown
> > > saw it with his own eyes.
> >
> > I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious,
> > unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error.
>
> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
>
> If you think servers - hardware and/or software - can never fail, you
> are naïve beyond comprehension.
>
> If you think it is appropriate to accuse one person you have never met
> of lying, and another of trolling, based solely on your belief in the
> perfection of all Usenet servers, then you should not be involving
> yourself in any kind of abuse resolution or advice. You should be
> asking questions first - not passing arbitrary judgement.
>
> Someone of the "Show me" school would ask for more information. You
> appear to be in the "Jump to conclusions" school.
>
> There are limits to how much I can "show you" what happened. But I can
> describe things in as much detail as practical.
>
> I use news.eternal-september.org as a Usenet server, with Thunderbird as
> the client. I am currently looking at the thread with subject "Re:
> Compute Unique Numbers in a Set" started (via a cross-post from
> comp.lang.c) on 08.01.2023. On one branch, posters "Bonita Montero" and
> "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com" had been arguing back and forth, here in
> comp.lang.c++. The penultimate post in the branch was made by Bonita
> 18.01.2023, 18:23, message id "tq99tp$vtqp$1@dont-email.me". Everything
> looks normal.
>
> When downloading message headers, the next message on the thread appears
> to be the expected reply from Muttley. It has the same subject, and the
> timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31.
>
> The message body here is, however, completely unexpected. It's headers
> do not match the previously downloaded headers. In the message body,
> the subject is "Change and Choice", the poster is "Ilya Shambat", the
> newsgroup is "rec.arts.books", the id is
> "36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com", there are no
> reference links to the other messages in the thread. The message
> contains a rambling essay.
>
> If I attempt to follow-up the message in Thunderbird, the Thunderbird
> client sets the newsgroup to "rec.arts.books", the subject to "Re:
> Compute Unique Numbers in a Set" (i.e., from the pre-downloaded headers,

Here's your mistake:

> not the body), and the quotation is given as "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:". The body of the quotation is the rambling essay. This is
> entirely consistent with Bonita's post - she replied to what she
> believed to be a message from Muttley.

Bonita hasn't replied in this thread, only what others
have said that she must have saw.

If I were to "quote" a message by "you" as:

On Tue, 30 Jan 2023 05:20:19 -0800 David Brown wrote:
> I am the easter bunny!

would that be proof that there was a server glitch
or would it more likely be me posting a "glitch"?

>
> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the

Likely there was no glitch, but possible.

> news.eternal-september.org server. Somehow, a message body from
> rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was delivered as though it matched
> the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in the thread. (I'm guessing
> Muttley actually made a post in the original thread, but I am unable to
> see the real message body.) The glitch appears to be limited to
> news.eternal-september.org - other users of that server have said they
> saw it, while it did not appear on other servers. People have reported
> the existence of the rambling essay post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya
> Shambat - it was a real post, but on news.eternal-september.org the
> message body was accidentally attached to the wrong header summaries for
> comp.lang.c++.
>
> Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The
> same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however,
> highly unlikely. And the idea that Bonita would jumped through hoops to
> repost some random post from another group but made to look like it came
> from Muttley so that she could comment on it - it's ridiculous.
>
> > I recommend a visit to an optician.
>
> I recommend you either listen to what happened, or bow out of this
> conversation. It is possible that you have experiences or knowledge
> that could help explain things - but if you think you know all the
> answers before you've heard the question, there's no point in commenting.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:46:54 -0800, David Brown wrote:

> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:20:19 +0100
> > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> > > It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
> > > news.eternal-september.org server. Somehow, a message body from
> > > rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was delivered as though it matched
> > > the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in the thread. (I'm guessing
> > > Muttley actually made a post in the original thread, but I am unable to
> > > see the real message body.) The glitch appears to be limited to
> > > news.eternal-september.org - other users of that server have said they
> > > saw it, while it did not appear on other servers. People have reported
> > > the existence of the rambling essay post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya
> > > Shambat - it was a real post, but on news.eternal-september.org the
> > > message body was accidentally attached to the wrong header summaries for
> > > comp.lang.c++.
> > >
> > > Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The
> > > same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however,
> > > highly unlikely.
> >
> > It could be a Thunderbird issue. Note the following :
> >
> > All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume
> > you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective
> > post and you can no longer reproduce them.
>
> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the
> same effect.
>
> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the
> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.
>
> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not
> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the
> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
>
> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>

That screen makes no sense and I would guess it to be a
Thunderbird problem. Thunderbird on mac has been broken
for me for many months and have quit trying to make it work.
A client problem, not a server problem.

So Thunderbird is broken or semi-broken depending on
Mac (broken), Windows (semi-broken), or Linux (somewhat
broken).

If Mozilla (Thunderbird) doesn't want to support newsgroups
anymore, they should stop pretending to. This is me jumping
to conclusions.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, David Brown wrote:

> On 26/01/2023 03:27, iKook wrote:
> > On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > I recommend you check these things for yourself.
> >
> > I have done it on MixMin. See below
>
> That might be useful for comparison.
>
> > Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims?
>
> Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch!
>
> If you drive to the car workshop and tell them your car is making a
> funny noise, would you be impressed if a whole bunch of mechanics rush
> out and look at every other car in the car park? Then when they find
> the other cars make no noise, they tell you it must be a troll in your car?
>
> How is it that there are people in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet who have
> supposedly all this "experience and expertise", and are willing to look
> up messages all over the place and draw all sorts of conclusions about
> people, articles, and servers - and yet none of them seems willing to
> take a look at the server that had the glitch?

That requires setting up an account. That didn't seem to
be necessary as the way you described the problem made it
seem like it was not a server problem.

>
> I've been involved in computers a /long/ time. A rare glitch on a
> server does not surprise me. What /does/ surprise and frustrate me are
> two things.
>
> One is that so many people have been so quick to accuse and blame Bonita
> of all sorts of things, without any consideration for alternative
> explanations of events. That includes people who know her postings
> well, and those who had not heard of her until this thread. Neither
> groups have any excuse for their judgemental attitude.
>
> The other is that so many apparent experts are determined to look
> everywhere except where the problem lies. It apparently does not matter
> what details I give, what explanations I post, what guides I give to
> reproducing the problem so that you can see it for yourself. No,
> apparently the "expert" handling is to ignore all I write, deny that
> servers can ever have glitches, and ask for more evidence.
>
> This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/ computer,
> it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/ Usenet server.
> Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message in question. It
> should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it only takes one of
> you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't trust or believe /me/).
>
> If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking how
> to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer.

You mis-explained in a way to lead others to misunderstand the
problem. The problem of Bonita's post and the second problem
of the server error, which apparently was coincidental. I'm sorry
to misunderstand about the server problem.

On 29/01/2023 05:20, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>
>> On 26/01/2023 03:27, iKook wrote:
>>> On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I recommend you check these things for yourself.
>>>
>>> I have done it on MixMin. See below
>>
>> That might be useful for comparison.
>>
>>> Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims?
>>
>> Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch!
>>
>> If you drive to the car workshop and tell them your car is making a
>> funny noise, would you be impressed if a whole bunch of mechanics rush
>> out and look at every other car in the car park? Then when they find
>> the other cars make no noise, they tell you it must be a troll in your car?
>>
>> How is it that there are people in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet who have
>> supposedly all this "experience and expertise", and are willing to look
>> up messages all over the place and draw all sorts of conclusions about
>> people, articles, and servers - and yet none of them seems willing to
>> take a look at the server that had the glitch?
>
> That requires setting up an account. That didn't seem to
> be necessary as the way you described the problem made it
> seem like it was not a server problem.

What? What part of "this is clearly a server glitch", "it is only
visible with news.eternal-september.org", and pretty much everything
else I wrote, could be interpreted as "not a server problem" ?

To be fair, the news.admin.net-abuse.usenet followers might not have
read from the start of the thread as seen on comp.lang.c++, and thus
missed some of the earlier posts. But everything I have written since
the cross-posting has been clearly about a server glitch and desperately
trying to persuade the Usenet experts to look for themselves on
news.eternal-september.org so that they can see the difference. Those
who /have/ now looked have been in no doubt - it was a server glitch.

I do appreciate that setting up an account on that server is an
inconvenience and effort, and people could have a wide range of good
reasons for not wanting to do that. I do not expect any particular
person to make an account and check it. All I expect is that people who
choose not to go to the source and look at the primary evidence, should
not profess an "expert opinion" on the matter.

>
> You mis-explained in a way to lead others to misunderstand the
> problem. The problem of Bonita's post and the second problem
> of the server error, which apparently was coincidental. I'm sorry
> to misunderstand about the server problem.
>

There were not two coincidental problems - there was /one/ problem. A
server glitch.

Bonita made a post in poor style - quoting an entire long message with a
single top-posted comment. Usenet is swamped with people who do that -
it is not some rare or unusual "problem", and if people complained to
admins about "abuse" for such posts, admins would see nothing else. You
can be sure that none of the regulars in comp.lang.c++ would bother
about it.

On 29/01/2023 04:54, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:46:54 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>
>> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:20:19 +0100
>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>>> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
>>>> news.eternal-september.org server. Somehow, a message body from
>>>> rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was delivered as though it matched
>>>> the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in the thread. (I'm guessing
>>>> Muttley actually made a post in the original thread, but I am unable to
>>>> see the real message body.) The glitch appears to be limited to
>>>> news.eternal-september.org - other users of that server have said they
>>>> saw it, while it did not appear on other servers. People have reported
>>>> the existence of the rambling essay post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya
>>>> Shambat - it was a real post, but on news.eternal-september.org the
>>>> message body was accidentally attached to the wrong header summaries for
>>>> comp.lang.c++.
>>>>
>>>> Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The
>>>> same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however,
>>>> highly unlikely.
>>>
>>> It could be a Thunderbird issue. Note the following :
>>>
>>> All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume
>>> you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective
>>> post and you can no longer reproduce them.
>>
>> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
>> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
>> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
>> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the
>> same effect.
>>
>> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the
>> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
>> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
>> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.
>>
>> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not
>> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
>> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the
>> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
>> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
>>
>> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
>
> That screen makes no sense and I would guess it to be a
> Thunderbird problem. Thunderbird on mac has been broken
> for me for many months and have quit trying to make it work.
> A client problem, not a server problem.
>

It's a screenshot from Pan, not Thunderbird. (You realise this is
Usenet, don't you? It is not personal email - you are allowed to read
replies I have made to other people. Indeed, it's a good idea, and
saves repetition.)

It makes no sense because it shows a /server/ problem - the /server/
returned nonsense for that post.

> So Thunderbird is broken or semi-broken depending on
> Mac (broken), Windows (semi-broken), or Linux (somewhat
> broken).
>
> If Mozilla (Thunderbird) doesn't want to support newsgroups
> anymore, they should stop pretending to. This is me jumping
> to conclusions.
>

I've found Thunderbird to work fine on Linux (I also use it on Windows,
but not for Usenet). It's not perfect, but I've found few programs that
/are/ perfect. And it shows the same glitch here as Pan does, because
it is a /server/ glitch, not a client issue.

On 29/01/2023 04:28, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 05:20:19 -0800, David Brown wrote:
>
> Bonita hasn't replied in this thread, only what others
> have said that she must have saw.
>
> If I were to "quote" a message by "you" as:
>
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2023 05:20:19 -0800 David Brown wrote:
>> I am the easter bunny!
>
> would that be proof that there was a server glitch
> or would it more likely be me posting a "glitch"?
>

It would be proof that you haven't bothered looking at the information I
have given in countless posts here.

Again - if you don't want to look at the information, or read the posts,
that's okay. But then you are not qualified to give an opinion on the
issue. Please do not join in the thread unless you have something
useful to say.

I must say I am, on the whole, very disappointed about the quality of
the so-called "experts" in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet. There have been
some that have been helpful, and at least one who has realised he was
wrong and had jumped to unwarranted conclusions (and I am grateful and
impressed by that admission).

But for the most part, the posters from that group come across as
arrogant, dismissive, judgemental and patronising. It is clear that
they want to help people, which is obviously good - but it is all based
on their pre-conceived assumptions about the issue. Again and again I
am told it is a troll post, a client issue, a user issue. Again and
again I present evidence showing it is a server glitch, only to have the
evidence ignored. I and an n.a.n-a.u poster refer to the posting of the
news.eternal-september.org admin who says there was a server glitch, and
that gets ignored. I post a screenshot, as asked, and it barely gets a
glance before being condemned as a client issue (for the wrong program).
Several posters from n.a.n-a.u show that they have not bothered to
read any of the the descriptions I have given, or the posts made by
their colleagues - and barely any have made the effort to actually look
at the server that had the problem. And yet they are supremely
confident in their judgement and assessment of the issue, with not an
ounce of humility.

Have you any idea how frustrating this is from my point of view? I feel
I am being accused of lying, or inventing things, or of being unable to
admit that I have been "trolled". The information I give is dismissed
without consideration. The "experts" can't possibly be wrong - I am
just an amateur that is mistaken and misunderstanding things.

You are late to the party here. It has already been established that it
is a server glitch (something I - the amateur - figured out within a day
of it occurring). At least one expert from n.a.n-a.u has checked the
bad server, duplicated the issue, and seen that it was a server glitch.

I am hoping this will be a wake-up call to the n.a.n-a.u posters who
have been jumping to conclusions from their ivory towers. Sometimes you
are wrong.

I apologise to those in n.a.n-a.u who feel this characterisation is
wrong. I don't know the group, and cannot judge it - and I certainly
cannot judge individuals. What I am doing here is giving feedback on my
impression from this thread. I assume that the impression I got is not
the way you want to appear, and does not give a fair picture of a group
of people who are genuinely trying to help others with their problems.
But it /is/ the impression I got here. And I'd rather tell you that
honestly, because I believe it will be helpful to you.

>>
>> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
>
> Likely there was no glitch, but possible.
>

I hope you'll now read some of the other posts.

In article <tr5jjk$2npbg$3@dont-email.me>,
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
....
>I do appreciate that setting up an account on that server is an
>inconvenience and effort, and people could have a wide range of good
>reasons for not wanting to do that. I do not expect any particular
>person to make an account and check it. All I expect is that people who
>choose not to go to the source and look at the primary evidence, should
>not profess an "expert opinion" on the matter.

But that's what these newsgroups are all about. Not letting not knowing
anything stop you from giving advice.

Just look at all the nonsense you (and that other poster) have spewed in
that other thread - the one about modifying object modules using
established working tools. You guys (both of you) need to look up what
"IMHO" means - and start liberally using it in your posts.

--
People often ask what is the difference between liberals and conservatives.
It is this. Libs see the government helping them and are OK with the government
also helping other people. Cons see the government screwing them and are OK with
that as long as the government is also screwing other people.

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>On 29/01/2023 04:28, Pluted Pup wrote:
>>On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 05:20:19 -0800, David Brown wrote:

>>Bonita hasn't replied in this thread, only what others
>>have said that she must have saw.

>>If I were to "quote" a message by "you" as:

>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2023 05:20:19 -0800 David Brown wrote:

>>>I am the easter bunny!

>>would that be proof that there was a server glitch
>>or would it more likely be me posting a "glitch"?

>It would be proof that you haven't bothered looking at the information I
>have given in countless posts here.

>Again - if you don't want to look at the information, or read the posts,
>that's okay. But then you are not qualified to give an opinion on the
>issue. Please do not join in the thread unless you have something
>useful to say. . . .

Oh for god's sake. Surely you must have noticed by now that "Pluted Pup"
is just a sockpuppet who has been trolling you. Would you PLEASE spit
out the damn hook already and stop troll feeding?

On 29/01/2023 18:23, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Oh for god's sake. Surely you must have noticed by now that "Pluted Pup"
> is just a sockpuppet who has been trolling you. Would you PLEASE spit
> out the damn hook already and stop troll feeding?

I have no idea who is or is not a troll in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet.
His posts do not stand out as being any worse than most of those from
that group (yours included).