On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:48:03 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/27/2023 6:36 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:04:28 AM UTC-4, Craig A. Berry
> > wrote:
> >> On 4/26/23 5:33 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> >>
> >>> One of the annoyances with MariaDB-10 (and MySQL-6) is that they
> >>> can only be built with C11 which is still not available on
> >>> OpenVMS/Alpha or OpenVMS/Itanium
> >> Not sure that will ever happen. It's hard to see how VSI can afford
> >> to continue to make major changes to the traditional front end on
> >> all platforms while also keeping up with clang on x86.
> >>> Kudos to VSI for making as much progress as they have. I only
> >>> hope that they get around to also supporting C17 (stable) and C23
> >>> (pre-release)
> >> Have you tried the clang-based C++ compiler currently in field
> >> test, which, as a side effect of being clang, works as either a C
> >> compiler or a C++ compiler? I suspect that will be the path forward
> >> for newer standards.
> >
> > No, but I will.
> >
> > As I have mentioned before, 99% of all software (applications as well
> > as software development tools) is written in C/C++ so not supporting
> > C/C++ is one way to kill any platform.
> I don't believe those 99%.
>
> Most surveys of programming languages show:
>
> tier 1 - JavaScript, Python, Java
> tier 2 - C/C++, C#, PHP
> tier 3 & 4 - all the rest
>
> The only domain I can think of where C/C++ is totally dominant is
> OS.
> > p.s. back in the day, the people at the Apache foundation had the
> > foresight to see this problem on the horizon so their first big
> > project, HTTPd, would only be supported on a very early
> > implementation of C. This is one reason why Apache HTTPd can be found
> > in every computer ecosystem.
> I can sympathize with that - I probably code my C in C89.
>
> :-)
> > Anyway, developers at Oracle (MySQL-6)
> > and MariaDB Corp (MariaDB-10)
> MySQL went from 5.7 to 8.0 there is no 6.x.
> > were wearing different hats when they
> > decided to use C11. If other open software developers follow this
> > trend then current operating systems not supporting C11, C17 and C23
> > (and their C++ equivalents) will quickly find their OS classified as
> > museumware.
> I believe the problem is mostly in C++ not C.
>
> C99->C11 is relative small (standard multi-threading, better
> unicode support and some other stuff).
>
> C11->C17 is just bugfixes.
>
> A C17 program will very much look like a C99 program.
>
> Obviously a program using some of the new features
> in C11 (like the standard threading instead of POSIX
> threading) will not build out of the box with C99.
>
> But overall C is C.
>
> Not so with C++.
>
> C++98->C++03 is just bugfixes.
>
> C++03->C++11 is huge: type inference, modern for loop,
> different return type declaration, nullptr, enum class,
> lambda, attributes, regex support, better unicode support,
> standard multi-threading and much more.
>
> C++11->C++14 added a bunch of smaller changes.
>
> C++14->C++17 added a bunch of smaller changes.
>
> C++17->C++20 added more (concepts, modules, coroutines,
> spaceship operator, mandate two's complement etc.).
>
> A C++20 program can look totally different from a
> C++98 program.
>
> The C++20 program will in some ways look more like a Java
> or C# program than a Cnn or C++98 program.
>
> Arne

Sir, I think you misunderstood my post. All those languages (including Javascript, Python, Java along with COBOL, FORTRAN and BASIC and anything else you can think of) are now implemented in either C or C++ ( https://www.stroustrup.com/applications.html )

Back in the day, all software (both tools and applications) would have been implemented in macro assembler but now everything is implemented in C or C++ then a code generator takes care of the final step; portable software would be virtually impossible if this wasn't the case. This is what Bell Labs had in mind when they were thinking about porting UNIX from an 18-bit PDP-7 to a 16-bit PDP-11 in the early 1970s. This magic trick was quickly repeated on an Interdata Model 70 then VAX-11.

Anyone who has ever worked with Python knows it can be implemented with other languages (including Python) but the CPYTHON virtual machine is the most popular and it is implemented in C.

But it looks like Python has followed the example set by the developers of MySQL-6 and MariaDB-10 in that Python-3.11 can only be built using a C11 compiler. Python-3.6 became unsupported at the end of 2021 ( https://devguide..python.org/versions/ ) so the clock is ticking toward another future choke point.

Now many people do not use Python-3 or MariaDB-10, but I use both everyday. And although I'm a fan of OpenVMS (while my employer remains agnostic), a decision by VSI to not support C11 would force a negative decision many like me.

comment: I am currently attending a Udemy course on "machine learning". It appears that Python-3 is the only game in town for work in this area (TensorFlow, scikit-learn, and PyTorch are just three of many python add-on libraries).

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://neilrieck.net

On 4/29/2023 7:47 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:48:03 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/27/2023 6:36 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> As I have mentioned before, 99% of all software (applications as
>>> well as software development tools) is written in C/C++ so not
>>> supporting C/C++ is one way to kill any platform.
>> I don't believe those 99%.
>>
>> Most surveys of programming languages show:
>>
>> tier 1 - JavaScript, Python, Java tier 2 - C/C++, C#, PHP tier 3 &
>> 4 - all the rest

> Sir, I think you misunderstood my post.

I misunderstand things all the time.

:-)

> All those languages
> (including Javascript, Python, Java along with COBOL, FORTRAN and
> BASIC and anything else you can think of) are now implemented in
> either C or C++ ( https://www.stroustrup.com/applications.html )
>
> Back in the day, all software (both tools and applications) would
> have been implemented in macro assembler but now everything is
> implemented in C or C++ then a code generator takes care of the final
> step; portable software would be virtually impossible if this wasn't
> the case. This is what Bell Labs had in mind when they were thinking
> about porting UNIX from an 18-bit PDP-7 to a 16-bit PDP-11 in the
> early 1970s. This magic trick was quickly repeated on an Interdata
> Model 70 then VAX-11.

C and C++ are widely used on in the infrastructure of other languages.

The compilers themselves can easily be written in another language
and sometimes do so.

But the RTL is different. If one need to write a RTL that interfaces
the OS and want to support many OS'es, then the list of possible
languages becomes pretty short. And C and C++ are at the top of the
list.

> Anyone who has ever worked with Python knows it can be implemented
> with other languages (including Python) but the CPYTHON virtual
> machine is the most popular and it is implemented in C.

I don't think there are any implementation without a C dependency at
the lower level.

Jython & GraalPython run in JVM, IronPython run in CLR and PyPy
is written in (Restricted) Python, but both JVM and CLR has
an interface to the OS written in C or C++ somewhere at the
lowest level. And I am pretty sure that it is the same for PyPy.

> But it looks like Python has followed the example set by the
> developers of MySQL-6 and MariaDB-10 in that Python-3.11 can only be
> built using a C11 compiler.

I did not know, but not so surprising. At some point projects
move on. Python had to choose between C99 that is now 24 years
old and C11 that is 12 years old and decided and now they
made the jump. It is not exactly chasing latest and greatest.

> Now many people do not use Python-3 or MariaDB-10, but I use both
> everyday. And although I'm a fan of OpenVMS (while my employer
> remains agnostic), a decision by VSI to not support C11 would force a
> negative decision many like me.

C11 on VMS x86-64 should not be a problem with clang.

But it seems unlikely that VSI will invest in going to C11
on Alpha and Itanium.

> comment: I am currently attending a Udemy course on "machine
> learning". It appears that Python-3 is the only game in town for work
> in this area (TensorFlow, scikit-learn, and PyTorch are just three of
> many python add-on libraries).

Python is a very important language today.

Arne

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 8:57:50 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/29/2023 7:47 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:48:03 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 4/27/2023 6:36 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> >>> As I have mentioned before, 99% of all software (applications as
> >>> well as software development tools) is written in C/C++ so not
> >>> supporting C/C++ is one way to kill any platform.
> >> I don't believe those 99%.
> >>
> >> Most surveys of programming languages show:
> >>
> >> tier 1 - JavaScript, Python, Java tier 2 - C/C++, C#, PHP tier 3 &
> >> 4 - all the rest
> > Sir, I think you misunderstood my post.
> I misunderstand things all the time.
>
> :-)
> > All those languages
> > (including Javascript, Python, Java along with COBOL, FORTRAN and
> > BASIC and anything else you can think of) are now implemented in
> > either C or C++ ( https://www.stroustrup.com/applications.html )
> >
> > Back in the day, all software (both tools and applications) would
> > have been implemented in macro assembler but now everything is
> > implemented in C or C++ then a code generator takes care of the final
> > step; portable software would be virtually impossible if this wasn't
> > the case. This is what Bell Labs had in mind when they were thinking
> > about porting UNIX from an 18-bit PDP-7 to a 16-bit PDP-11 in the
> > early 1970s. This magic trick was quickly repeated on an Interdata
> > Model 70 then VAX-11.
> C and C++ are widely used on in the infrastructure of other languages.
>
> The compilers themselves can easily be written in another language
> and sometimes do so.
>
> But the RTL is different. If one need to write a RTL that interfaces
> the OS and want to support many OS'es, then the list of possible
> languages becomes pretty short. And C and C++ are at the top of the
> list.
> > Anyone who has ever worked with Python knows it can be implemented
> > with other languages (including Python) but the CPYTHON virtual
> > machine is the most popular and it is implemented in C.
> I don't think there are any implementation without a C dependency at
> the lower level.
>
> Jython & GraalPython run in JVM, IronPython run in CLR and PyPy
> is written in (Restricted) Python, but both JVM and CLR has
> an interface to the OS written in C or C++ somewhere at the
> lowest level. And I am pretty sure that it is the same for PyPy.
> > But it looks like Python has followed the example set by the
> > developers of MySQL-6 and MariaDB-10 in that Python-3.11 can only be
> > built using a C11 compiler.
> I did not know, but not so surprising. At some point projects
> move on. Python had to choose between C99 that is now 24 years
> old and C11 that is 12 years old and decided and now they
> made the jump. It is not exactly chasing latest and greatest.
> > Now many people do not use Python-3 or MariaDB-10, but I use both
> > everyday. And although I'm a fan of OpenVMS (while my employer
> > remains agnostic), a decision by VSI to not support C11 would force a
> > negative decision many like me.
> C11 on VMS x86-64 should not be a problem with clang.
>
> But it seems unlikely that VSI will invest in going to C11
> on Alpha and Itanium.
> > comment: I am currently attending a Udemy course on "machine
> > learning". It appears that Python-3 is the only game in town for work
> > in this area (TensorFlow, scikit-learn, and PyTorch are just three of
> > many python add-on libraries).
> Python is a very important language today.
>
> Arne

I'm glad you added that clarification.
I think Alpha is totally off the table but I think a case could be made for providing modern compiler support to OpenVMS on Itanium.
This would enable people like Mark Berryman, Brett Cameron and others to more easily port open software products to the OpenVMS ecosystem.
This is a must on x86-64 since open source software appears to be ever more important today than it ever was.

Back to python for a moment. I've got a lot of production stuff running under python-3.6 (which is no longer supported) so we are preparing to move to python-3.9
Not sure about OpenVMS systems but Linux systems allow you to support multiple python environments simultaneously via the shebang mechanism.
Anyway, I've been playing a lot with python-3.9 lately an have noticed that many modern python libraries are installed via something called the whl mechanism. Watching this happen is like watching a professional magician: c or c++ source code is downloaded, then compiled + linked (provided you have installed development tools like gcc).

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://neilrieck.net

On 4/30/2023 8:48 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 8:57:50 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/29/2023 7:47 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> Now many people do not use Python-3 or MariaDB-10, but I use
>>> both everyday. And although I'm a fan of OpenVMS (while my
>>> employer remains agnostic), a decision by VSI to not support C11
>>> would force a negative decision many like me.
>> C11 on VMS x86-64 should not be a problem with clang.
>>
>> But it seems unlikely that VSI will invest in going to C11 on Alpha
>> and Itanium.
>>> comment: I am currently attending a Udemy course on "machine
>>> learning". It appears that Python-3 is the only game in town for
>>> work in this area (TensorFlow, scikit-learn, and PyTorch are just
>>> three of many python add-on libraries).
>> Python is a very important language today.
>
> I'm glad you added that clarification. I think Alpha is totally off
> the table but I think a case could be made for providing modern
> compiler support to OpenVMS on Itanium. This would enable people like
> Mark Berryman, Brett Cameron and others to more easily port open
> software products to the OpenVMS ecosystem. This is a must on x86-64
> since open source software appears to be ever more important today
> than it ever was.

VSI decision.

I doubt that it will happen.

> Back to python for a moment. I've got a lot of production stuff
> running under python-3.6 (which is no longer supported) so we are
> preparing to move to python-3.9 Not sure about OpenVMS systems but
> Linux systems allow you to support multiple python environments
> simultaneously via the shebang mechanism. Anyway, I've been playing a
> lot with python-3.9 lately an have noticed that many modern python
> libraries are installed via something called the whl mechanism.
> Watching this happen is like watching a professional magician: c or
> c++ source code is downloaded, then compiled + linked (provided you
> have installed development tools like gcc).

You got 3.10 on Itanium.

https://vmssoftware.com/products/python/

and it also list a wheels kit. I don't know if it
compiles or come pre-built.

Arne

Den 2023-04-30 kl. 14:48, skrev Neil Rieck:

> something called the whl mechanism.

That is "Pyhton Wheels", right?

https://pypi.org/project/wheel/

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 8:59:04 AM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2023-04-30 kl. 14:48, skrev Neil Rieck:
>
> > something called the whl mechanism.
> That is "Pyhton Wheels", right?
>
> https://pypi.org/project/wheel/

To be honest, I am not sure. Sometimes change happens so quickly that when I see something happen I do not always investigate. One can only stand back and say "now that is interesting!"

Neil