On 12/1/2023 6:38 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> I joined https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms back in 2006 so
> 17-years is a pretty good run. But the ongoing SPAM attack that
> started Oct-1 tells me that this NNTP newsgroup thing has outlived
> its usefulness.

comp.os.vms usenet group on NNTP servers seems fine.

INFO-VAX mail-list is probably going to be fine.

comp.os.vms Google Groups group may be toast.

Which is bad as some people use Google Groups for
reading and posting - and many people use it for searching
old posts.

> 1) I've been flagging at least 200 messages each day as SPAM. I also
> requested help from Google through the feedback tool (almost every
> day) but did not receive a single response. This makes me wonder if
> they have done a risk/reward analysis then decided to let this
> product die on the vine.

Everybody is saying that Google Groups is running on auto pilot with
no human at the steering wheel.

> 2) I lodged a complaint via https://support.google.com/ where a
> non-Google employee suggested I create a new group with the requisite
> privacy settings. I did that then attempted to create
> "comp.os.openvms" but it came up as "composopenvms". Perhaps the
> lack of dots helps to distinguish the old flavor newsgroup from the
> new. This makes me wonder if messages post here are being seen my
> the traditional news readers. Anyway, you are free to use
> https://groups.google.com/g/composopenvms if you wish.
>
> 3) As an alternative, I suggest we all unsubscribe from all Google
> Groups then continue our conversations on reddit where we will be
> free to continue our conversation under the OpenVMS sub-reddit. Click
> here to see what I mean: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/ Some
> people might not know that reddit (the first social media company?)
> was created in 2005 with the intent of dealing with SPAM. In return
> for free use, the odd reddit message might contain a advert from one
> of their corporate adverts, but this is nothing like navigating the
> SPAM we see at comp.os.vms

I am not sure that I see the point.

Today we have:

c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
w few users w some users w few users

and:
* GG users
* NNTP server admins
* maillist gateway admin
has a problem with the spam from GG.

But I don't see:

c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
w no users w some users w few users

X @ GG or Reddit
w few users

as having any point without a connection.

Arne

On 12/1/2023 12:10 PM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Friday, December 1, 2023 at 11:03:10 AM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/1/2023 6:38 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> 2) I lodged a complaint via https://support.google.com/ where a
>>> non-Google employee suggested I create a new group with the requisite
>>> privacy settings. I did that then attempted to create
>>> "comp.os.openvms" but it came up as "composopenvms". Perhaps the
>>> lack of dots helps to distinguish the old flavor newsgroup from the
>>> new. This makes me wonder if messages post here are being seen my
>>> the traditional news readers. Anyway, you are free to use
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/composopenvms if you wish.
>>>
>>> 3) As an alternative, I suggest we all unsubscribe from all Google
>>> Groups then continue our conversations on reddit where we will be
>>> free to continue our conversation under the OpenVMS sub-reddit. Click
>>> here to see what I mean: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/ Some
>>> people might not know that reddit (the first social media company?)
>>> was created in 2005 with the intent of dealing with SPAM. In return
>>> for free use, the odd reddit message might contain a advert from one
>>> of their corporate adverts, but this is nothing like navigating the
>>> SPAM we see at comp.os.vms
>> I am not sure that I see the point.
>>
>> Today we have:
>>
>> c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
>> w few users w some users w few users
>>
>> and:
>> * GG users
>> * NNTP server admins
>> * maillist gateway admin
>> has a problem with the spam from GG.
>>
>> But I don't see:
>>
>> c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
>> w no users w some users w few users
>>
>> X @ GG or Reddit
>> w few users
>>
>> as having any point without a connection.

> With all due respect, NNTP technology was developed BEFORE anyone
> ever thought that there may be a billion people in India acting as
> SPAM bots. (apparently the original spammers thought that "VMS" meant
> "Vitamin + Mineral Supplements". I would have guessed that "VM" meant
> "Vedic Medicine" )
>
> I fear that the only way the NNTP could ever survive is to employ a
> modern A.I. to act as a content filter (but we are already seeing
> A.I. being used to generate some really good fake news).

Those actually using NNTP does not have a problem.

Many NNTP servers has implemented 98% effective spam filters.

Those using a NNTP server not having done so can just configure
their NNTP client to delete all messages originating from Google Groups
(and maybe not match a white list).

It is those accessing GG via HTTP(S) that has a problem. It has
become useless.

And the SPAM is send in to GG via HTTP(S).

So not a NNTP problem.

> The reason why I chose reddit is this: over the years I have been
> able to solve numerous problems by getting into near instantaneous
> touch with subject matter experts. For example, when my employer
> tasked me with a Rocky Linux install, after I ran into problems I
> posted some questions on reddit, I received a response from the guy
> who packaged the module in question. Likewise, when my employer
> tasked me with some work involving ELevate-leapp, people from
> AlmaLinux answered me within a couple of hours.
>
> People needing direct answers for OpenVMS issues should visit here:
> https://forum.vmssoftware.com/ But people wanting to have an informal
> discussion about OpenVMS might wish to consider this:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/
If people like Reddit then by all means use it.

But don't expect the maybe 90% of comp.os.vms users not
having a spam problem because they use a NNTP client
accessing a NNTP server to follow.

Arne

On 12/1/2023 3:08 PM, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Friday, December 1, 2023 at 12:38:30 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/1/2023 12:10 PM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> The reason why I chose reddit is this: over the years I have been
>>> able to solve numerous problems by getting into near instantaneous
>>> touch with subject matter experts. For example, when my employer
>>> tasked me with a Rocky Linux install, after I ran into problems I
>>> posted some questions on reddit, I received a response from the guy
>>> who packaged the module in question. Likewise, when my employer
>>> tasked me with some work involving ELevate-leapp, people from
>>> AlmaLinux answered me within a couple of hours.
>>>
>>> People needing direct answers for OpenVMS issues should visit here:
>>> https://forum.vmssoftware.com/ But people wanting to have an informal
>>> discussion about OpenVMS might wish to consider this:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/
>> If people like Reddit then by all means use it.
>>
>> But don't expect the maybe 90% of comp.os.vms users not
>> having a spam problem because they use a NNTP client
>> accessing a NNTP server to follow.

> I hope you are correct but I suspect your number may to be too high.
> When one of my colleagues retired in 2016, his replacement (who was
> only 20 years younger than my colleague) did not seem to share our
> ancient background. This hardworking new guy only seemed to be
> familiar with stuff he was exposed to in his previous job supporting
> Windows Server Edition platforms. For example, he knew about SSH but
> not telnet (so was surprised when I showed him how to use telnet to
> debug a web server). I'm shooting from the hip here, but would bet a
> week's pay that he has never heard of NNTP or newsreaders. This
> problem will only get worse as we retire and/or die.
c.o.v/NNTP or c.o.v./GG or I-V/mail is observable for posters
and it is most, very few and very few.

It is possible that the distribution for those only reading
never posting is different.

Many things will change in the next 20 years. Usenet may very
well die. We will see.

Arne

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 12/1/2023 6:38 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>> I joined https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms back in 2006 so
>> 17-years is a pretty good run. But the ongoing SPAM attack that
>> started Oct-1 tells me that this NNTP newsgroup thing has outlived
>> its usefulness.
>
>comp.os.vms usenet group on NNTP servers seems fine.

Depends on your server, but now that the nocem folks have things tuned
pretty well, I am seeing very little spam here. There are still a few
groups like comp.protocols.time.ntp that aren't dialed in completely yet,
but it's far better than it was last week.

>INFO-VAX mail-list is probably going to be fine.
>
>comp.os.vms Google Groups group may be toast.
>
>Which is bad as some people use Google Groups for
>reading and posting - and many people use it for searching
>old posts.

Agreed.

>> 3) As an alternative, I suggest we all unsubscribe from all Google
>> Groups then continue our conversations on reddit where we will be
>> free to continue our conversation under the OpenVMS sub-reddit. Click
>> here to see what I mean: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/ Some
>> people might not know that reddit (the first social media company?)
>> was created in 2005 with the intent of dealing with SPAM. In return
>> for free use, the odd reddit message might contain a advert from one
>> of their corporate adverts, but this is nothing like navigating the
>> SPAM we see at comp.os.vms
>
>I am not sure that I see the point.

I think that the person posting that was a Google Groups user who thinks
that the mess is as bad from typical Usenet sites as it is at Google
Groups. Google Groups is a terrible way to read comp.os.vms and has been
since Google Groups was created.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 2023-12-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 12/1/2023 6:38 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>> I joined https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms back in 2006 so
>> 17-years is a pretty good run. But the ongoing SPAM attack that
>> started Oct-1 tells me that this NNTP newsgroup thing has outlived
>> its usefulness.
>
> comp.os.vms usenet group on NNTP servers seems fine.
>

Yes. Neil seems to keep confusing NNTP servers and the Usenet ecosystem
with the Google interface he is clearly using.

> INFO-VAX mail-list is probably going to be fine.
>
> comp.os.vms Google Groups group may be toast.
>
> Which is bad as some people use Google Groups for
> reading and posting - and many people use it for searching
> old posts.
>

I wonder if using a site: filter for https://comp.os.vms.narkive.com/
in your search engine along with what you are looking for would help ?
Presumably the spam would be ignored during a search because it would
not contain any of the keywords you are looking for.

>> 1) I've been flagging at least 200 messages each day as SPAM. I also
>> requested help from Google through the feedback tool (almost every
>> day) but did not receive a single response. This makes me wonder if
>> they have done a risk/reward analysis then decided to let this
>> product die on the vine.
>
> Everybody is saying that Google Groups is running on auto pilot with
> no human at the steering wheel.
>
>> 2) I lodged a complaint via https://support.google.com/ where a
>> non-Google employee suggested I create a new group with the requisite
>> privacy settings. I did that then attempted to create
>> "comp.os.openvms" but it came up as "composopenvms". Perhaps the
>> lack of dots helps to distinguish the old flavor newsgroup from the
>> new. This makes me wonder if messages post here are being seen my
>> the traditional news readers. Anyway, you are free to use
>> https://groups.google.com/g/composopenvms if you wish.

NO BLOODY WAY!!!!

This is _entirely_ the wrong approach and would mean everyone would
have to register with Google and use the Google web interface for posting
as messages posted there would not show up in NNTP newsfeeds.

NO BLOODY WAY!!!!

This BTW is an excellent example of people who use the Google interface
to Usenet confusing it with how Usenet itself works.

> >
>> 3) As an alternative, I suggest we all unsubscribe from all Google
>> Groups then continue our conversations on reddit where we will be
>> free to continue our conversation under the OpenVMS sub-reddit. Click
>> here to see what I mean: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/ Some
>> people might not know that reddit (the first social media company?)
>> was created in 2005 with the intent of dealing with SPAM. In return
>> for free use, the odd reddit message might contain a advert from one
>> of their corporate adverts, but this is nothing like navigating the
>> SPAM we see at comp.os.vms
>

NO BLOODY WAY!!!!

Once again, no NNTP interface and prone to being permanently banned by
some immature power-hungry control freak just because you didn't use the
currently acceptable phrases this month or some similar nonsense excuse.

Sod that!!!

> I am not sure that I see the point.
>
> Today we have:
>
> c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
> w few users w some users w few users
>
> and:
> * GG users
> * NNTP server admins
> * maillist gateway admin
> has a problem with the spam from GG.
>
> But I don't see:
>
> c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
> w no users w some users w few users
>
> X @ GG or Reddit
> w few users
>
> as having any point without a connection.
>
> Arne
>

NNTP is the correct approach. We just need to have Google's interface
to it to be permanently dropped.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Den 2023-12-04 kl. 14:45, skrev Simon Clubley:
> On 2023-12-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 12/1/2023 6:38 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> I joined https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms back in 2006 so
>>> 17-years is a pretty good run. But the ongoing SPAM attack that
>>> started Oct-1 tells me that this NNTP newsgroup thing has outlived
>>> its usefulness.
>>
>> comp.os.vms usenet group on NNTP servers seems fine.
>>
>
> Yes. Neil seems to keep confusing NNTP servers and the Usenet ecosystem
> with the Google interface he is clearly using.
>
>> INFO-VAX mail-list is probably going to be fine.
>>
>> comp.os.vms Google Groups group may be toast.
>>
>> Which is bad as some people use Google Groups for
>> reading and posting - and many people use it for searching
>> old posts.
>>
>
> I wonder if using a site: filter for https://comp.os.vms.narkive.com/
> in your search engine along with what you are looking for would help ?
> Presumably the spam would be ignored during a search because it would
> not contain any of the keywords you are looking for.
>
>>> 1) I've been flagging at least 200 messages each day as SPAM. I also
>>> requested help from Google through the feedback tool (almost every
>>> day) but did not receive a single response. This makes me wonder if
>>> they have done a risk/reward analysis then decided to let this
>>> product die on the vine.
>>
>> Everybody is saying that Google Groups is running on auto pilot with
>> no human at the steering wheel.
>>
>>> 2) I lodged a complaint via https://support.google.com/ where a
>>> non-Google employee suggested I create a new group with the requisite
>>> privacy settings. I did that then attempted to create
>>> "comp.os.openvms" but it came up as "composopenvms". Perhaps the
>>> lack of dots helps to distinguish the old flavor newsgroup from the
>>> new. This makes me wonder if messages post here are being seen my
>>> the traditional news readers. Anyway, you are free to use
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/composopenvms if you wish.
>
> NO BLOODY WAY!!!!
>
> This is _entirely_ the wrong approach and would mean everyone would
> have to register with Google and use the Google web interface for posting
> as messages posted there would not show up in NNTP newsfeeds.
>
> NO BLOODY WAY!!!!
>
> This BTW is an excellent example of people who use the Google interface
> to Usenet confusing it with how Usenet itself works.
>
>>>
>>> 3) As an alternative, I suggest we all unsubscribe from all Google
>>> Groups then continue our conversations on reddit where we will be
>>> free to continue our conversation under the OpenVMS sub-reddit. Click
>>> here to see what I mean: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenVMS/ Some
>>> people might not know that reddit (the first social media company?)
>>> was created in 2005 with the intent of dealing with SPAM. In return
>>> for free use, the odd reddit message might contain a advert from one
>>> of their corporate adverts, but this is nothing like navigating the
>>> SPAM we see at comp.os.vms
>>
>
> NO BLOODY WAY!!!!
>
> Once again, no NNTP interface and prone to being permanently banned by
> some immature power-hungry control freak just because you didn't use the
> currently acceptable phrases this month or some similar nonsense excuse.
>
> Sod that!!!
>
>> I am not sure that I see the point.
>>
>> Today we have:
>>
>> c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
>> w few users w some users w few users
>>
>> and:
>> * GG users
>> * NNTP server admins
>> * maillist gateway admin
>> has a problem with the spam from GG.
>>
>> But I don't see:
>>
>> c.o.v @ GG --- c.o.v @ few NNTP servers --- I-V maillist
>> w no users w some users w few users
>>
>> X @ GG or Reddit
>> w few users
>>
>> as having any point without a connection.
>>
>> Arne
>>
>
> NNTP is the correct approach. We just need to have Google's interface
> to it to be permanently dropped.
>
> Simon.
>

Or move any VMS related discussions to the VSI Forum.
And ditch NNTP and Usenet alltogether.

=?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=C3=B6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>
>Or move any VMS related discussions to the VSI Forum.
>And ditch NNTP and Usenet alltogether.

NNTP and Usenet are just fine. The only problem is Google. I see no reason
not to just drop all traffic from Google and be done with it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/4/2023 8:45 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-12-01, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> comp.os.vms Google Groups group may be toast.
>>
>> Which is bad as some people use Google Groups for
>> reading and posting - and many people use it for searching
>> old posts.
>>
>
> I wonder if using a site: filter for https://comp.os.vms.narkive.com/
> in your search engine along with what you are looking for would help ?
> Presumably the spam would be ignored during a search because it would
> not contain any of the keywords you are looking for.

I suspect that would work.

But that site says "First post 20 years ago", which means
that it must be missing a lot.

Arne

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
>But that site says "First post 20 years ago", which means
>that it must be missing a lot.

A comprehensive attempt was made to drag early records from pre-Renaming
usenet when dejanews first started. The folks from talk.bizarre contributed
nearly a gigabyte of old postings, mostly retrieved from Henry Spencers'
backup tapes, but some of which came from personal archives.

When dejanews was bought out by Google that stuff was retained... but
within a few years Google broke all the indices so if you didn't know
the message-ID it was often difficult to find a post. Then they took
down the advanced search which made it pretty much impossible to find
anything. But I think the posts are in there, you just can't get to them.

Unfortunately they are likely the -only- place with the earliest of
Usenet records.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 04/12/2023 22:59, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> =?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=C3=B6derholm?= <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>
>> Or move any VMS related discussions to the VSI Forum.
>> And ditch NNTP and Usenet alltogether.
>
> NNTP and Usenet are just fine. The only problem is Google. I see no reason
> not to just drop all traffic from Google and be done with it.
> --scott

+1

--
--
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#befor

FYI, not sure if this is the correct decision by google, but this blurb started to appear at the top of the comp.os.vms page on Dec-14, 2023.

Effective February 15, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.

On 2023-12-15, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@bell.net> wrote:
>
> FYI, not sure if this is the correct decision by google, but this blurb started to appear at the top of the comp.os.vms page on Dec-14, 2023.
>

Given the surprising inability of Google to control the spam, it is the
correct decision.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:09:22 -0000 (UTC)
Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:

> On 2023-12-15, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@bell.net> wrote:
> >
> > FYI, not sure if this is the correct decision by google, but this
> > blurb started to appear at the top of the comp.os.vms page on
> > Dec-14, 2023.
>
> Given the surprising inability of Google to control the spam, it is
> the correct decision.
>
> Simon.
>

I am not sure about it.
Given the surprising inability of Google to control the spam, the
preferable decision, IMHO, would be for Google to do to all Usenet
groups what they already did few weeks ago to majority of groups that I
follow (comp.arch, comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++) i.e. to disable posting
through GG interface, but keep receiving feeds fro select peers.

At least that sounds as a preferred solution at the moment.

Only if (when) spammers start to use traditional NNTP channels and
assuming that their main movation is to be seen on GG, complete
disconnect would become preferable.

On 12/15/2023 9:16 AM, Michael S wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:09:22 -0000 (UTC)
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-15, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@bell.net> wrote:
>>> FYI, not sure if this is the correct decision by google, but this
>>> blurb started to appear at the top of the comp.os.vms page on
>>> Dec-14, 2023.
>>
>> Given the surprising inability of Google to control the spam, it is
>> the correct decision.
>
> I am not sure about it.
> Given the surprising inability of Google to control the spam, the
> preferable decision, IMHO, would be for Google to do to all Usenet
> groups what they already did few weeks ago to majority of groups that I
> follow (comp.arch, comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++) i.e. to disable posting
> through GG interface, but keep receiving feeds fro select peers.
>
> At least that sounds as a preferred solution at the moment.

They could even have allowed posting via GG if they required
a verified account (GMail address + alternate email address +
cell phone number) to post and deleted accounts violating ToS.

But they probably wanted a solution with a cost of zero.

> Only if (when) spammers start to use traditional NNTP channels and
> assuming that their main movation is to be seen on GG, complete
> disconnect would become preferable.

I don't understand the spammers motivation at all.

Arne