I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
"F" is often used as "S".
Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
P

Peter Jason wrote:

> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
> "F" is often used as "S".
> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?

It isn't an "f" it's a "long s"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s>

Depends on what font you're using how fancy or plain it will render
e.g. ſ

Peter Jason wrote:
> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
> "F" is often used as "S".
> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
> P

I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and we
can advise further.

Ed

On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> Peter Jason wrote:
>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>> "F"  is often used as "S".
>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>> P
>
> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
> If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and we
> can advise further.
>
> Ed
>
The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s. ie moss =
mof, grass= graf. etc

knuttle wrote:
> On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Peter Jason wrote:
>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>>> "F"  is often used as "S".
>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>>> P
>>
>> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
>> If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and
>> we can advise further.
>>
>> Ed
>>
> The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s.   ie moss =
> mof,  grass= graf. etc
Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith in
the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty of
balanced clauses.
Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
https://www.gutenberg.org/
Ed

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:31:55 +0100
Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:

> knuttle wrote:
> > On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> >> Peter Jason wrote:
> >>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English,
> >>> where "F"  is often used as "S".
> >>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
> >>> P
> >>
> >> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or
> >> similar. If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know
> >> the font and we can advise further.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> > The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s.   ie
> > moss = mof,  grass= graf. etc
>
> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith
> in the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty
> of balanced clauses.
>
> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
> https://www.gutenberg.org/
>
> Ed

Ever try Librivox? Free public domain audiobooks

https://librivox.org/

David Hume

https://librivox.org/author/70?primary_key=70&search_category=author&search_page=1&search_form=get_results

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 07:22:28 -0400, knuttle wrote:
> On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> > [quoted text muted]
> > can advise further.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s. ie moss =
> mof, grass= graf. etc

No, with double-s you get a long s followed by a "normal" s. Look at
"necefsary" and "difsolve" in the first line, and "Happinefs" in the
fourth.

<https://www.nps.gov/articles/stone.htm>

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 08:53:53 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Peter Jason wrote:
>
>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>> "F" is often used as "S".
>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>
>It isn't an "f" it's a "long s"
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s>
>
>Depends on what font you're using how fancy or plain it will render
>e.g. ?

I have used the Word ''find & replace" and this works to convert F
into S, but it's so tedious, and not perfect.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 09:18:52 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
wrote:

>Peter Jason wrote:
>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>> "F" is often used as "S".
>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>> P
>
>I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
>If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and we
>can advise further.
>
>Ed

I used the pdf OCR default, and transferred all to Word.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 07:22:28 -0400, knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Peter Jason wrote:
>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>>> "F"  is often used as "S".
>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>>> P
>>
>> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
>> If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and we
>> can advise further.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s. ie moss =
>mof, grass= graf. etc

Not true in this case.

On 10/23/2023 6:36 PM, Peter Jason wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 09:18:52 +0100, Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Peter Jason wrote:
>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>>> "F" is often used as "S".
>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>>> P
>>
>> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
>> If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and we
>> can advise further.
>>
>> Ed
>
> I used the pdf OCR default, and transferred all to Word.If you do not have a PDF reader with OCR, there are other ways.

I use Irfanview and the OCR plugin. I open the document in the PDF
reader, and copy the section the I want as text. I paste in into
Irfanview and use the OCR plugin to get the image converted to text.

On 10/23/2023 7:31 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> knuttle wrote:
>> On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>> Peter Jason wrote:
>>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>>>> "F"  is often used as "S".
>>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>>>> P
>>>
>>> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or similar.
>>> If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know the font and
>>> we can advise further.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>> The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s.   ie moss
>> = mof,  grass= graf. etc
>
> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith in
> the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty of
> balanced clauses.
>
> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
> https://www.gutenberg.org/
>
> Ed
I find the double s replaced by an f looking character in many
handwritten documents like deeds, wills, etc. I have seen it mostly in
Kentucky and Tennessee documents of the early to mid 1800's
I have also seen fs. It almost looks like an f with a subscript b
attached to it

On 10/22/23 18:35, Peter Jason wrote:
> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
> "F" is often used as "S".
> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
> P

Hi Peter,

This is a long shot.

Do yo live in Great Britain? If so, there are several
drama clubs there that do Shakespeare in the original
language. (And boy does it sound different: almost
musical and not choppy / annoying.)

They may have some tools at their disposal that
could help you.

-T

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 06:59:30 -0500, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:31:55 +0100
>Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
>
>> knuttle wrote:
>> > On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> >> Peter Jason wrote:
>> >>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English,
>> >>> where "F"  is often used as "S".
>> >>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>> >>> P
>> >>
>> >> I suspect most of what you see is in pictorial format, PDFs or
>> >> similar. If, on the other hand, it's in text format, let us know
>> >> the font and we can advise further.
>> >>
>> >> Ed
>> >>
>> > The f looking character is ofen used in words with double s.   ie
>> > moss = mof,  grass= graf. etc
>>
>> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
>> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith
>> in the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty
>> of balanced clauses.
>>
>> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
>> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
>> https://www.gutenberg.org/
>>
>> Ed
>
>Ever try Librivox? Free public domain audiobooks
>
>https://librivox.org/
>
>David Hume
>
>https://librivox.org/author/70?primary_key=70&search_category=author&search_page=1&search_form=get_results

Thanks all replies.

I have found this one....
https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/index.html
..... very good for books in a most readable format, selectable in many
categories.

At present I'm reading "Casanova Memoirs" (2500pages!) meant to be
complete an unabridged.

There may be philosophy books too.

The erotic section is most tastefully represented.

Worth a look, and it's free!

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:22:01 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/22/23 18:35, Peter Jason wrote:
>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>> "F" is often used as "S".
>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>> P
>
>Hi Peter,
>
>This is a long shot.
>
>Do yo live in Great Britain? If so, there are several
>drama clubs there that do Shakespeare in the original
>language. (And boy does it sound different: almost
>musical and not choppy / annoying.)
>
>They may have some tools at their disposal that
>could help you.
>
>-T
>

Thanks, I'll give this a try.

Peter Jason:

> I have found this one....
> https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/index.html
> .... very good for books in a most readable format,
> selectable in many
> categories.

"a most readable format"? Already thou art writing in 18th
century English, sir!

My favourite e-book libraries:

https://www.gutenberg.org/
http://gutenberg.net.au/
https://www.fadedpage.com/
https://sacred-texts.com/ -- Has all Charles Fort books!
https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en

The last one charges a small fee for a month of unlimited
downloads.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

In article <uh5lqb$33k92$1@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer wrote...
>
> knuttle wrote:
> > On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> >> Peter Jason wrote:
> >>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
> >>> "F"  is often used as "S".
> >>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
....

> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith in
> the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty of
> balanced clauses.
>
> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
> https://www.gutenberg.org/
>
> Ed

Indeed, 18th C prose can be majestic, but then so is the effort required to
appreciate it, although it's worth it. You can't "speed-read" stuff like this;
it's of an age when humanity didn't have a small box close by which beeps at us
every couple of minutes with some new imperative. I was intrigued by your
mention of "balanced clauses" but a quick Google quickly clarified something
I'd vaguely recognised but had yet to tag with a name - thanks for that! I
remember when my reading around A-level** English Literature had me stumble on
the notion of "prose rhythm", and it was a revelation. I can still remember
the ending of one of the chapters of Joyce's "Portrait of the Artist":

"the tide was flowing in fast to the land with a low whisper of her waves,
islanding a few last figures in distant pools."

It's like the final notes of a particularly satisfying piece of music, with a
distinct pause before the first applause as the audience soaks up the echoes.

In our modern age fine writing like this can be made accessible through audio
books, given a skilled narrator. I'm currently working through Homer's
Oddysey, where the power of the language shines through the translation
process. And this would originally have been experienced aloud, I rather
think.

Back to the topic:

It seemed to me that the academic world would have addressed the need to
capture historical English as text, and a Google for "OCR tool for historical
English" brought up several promising links. Of course the academic world
would likely want to preserve the original spelling and typography while being
able to process text for the purposes of search and re-flow, for example.
Indeed, both Shakespeare and Chaucer lose a great deal of every kind of nuance
when squished into modern language, so it's well worth the effort to work at
the originals. (Not learning ancient greek any time soon, though!)

**For non-UK readers, A-level ("Advanced Level") is a school certificate
typically studied in three subjects from ages 16 to 18.

--

Phil, London

In article <MPG.3fa3049a26c17701989a8a@news.eternal-september.org>, Philip
Herlihy wrote...
>
> In article <uh5lqb$33k92$1@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer wrote...
> >
> > knuttle wrote:
> > > On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> > >> Peter Jason wrote:
> > >>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
> > >>> "F"  is often used as "S".
> > >>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
> ...
>
....
>
> It seemed to me that the academic world would have addressed the need to
> capture historical English as text, and a Google for "OCR tool for historical
> English" brought up several promising links.
....

One last thing - I'd guess a major university library would be all over this.
My college grades leapt when I asked a librarian for research tips for essays -
they know where all the good stuff is!

--

Phil, London

Stan Brown:

> No, with double-s you get a long s followed by a "normal"
> s. Look at "necefsary" and "difsolve" in the first line,
> and "Happinefs" in the fourth.

I thought they were ligatures.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Philip Herlihy wrote:
> In article <uh5lqb$33k92$1@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer wrote...
>>
>> knuttle wrote:
>>> On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>> Peter Jason wrote:
>>>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>>>>> "F"  is often used as "S".
>>>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
> ...
>
>> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
>> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith in
>> the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty of
>> balanced clauses.
>>
>> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
>> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
>> https://www.gutenberg.org/
>>
>> Ed
>
> Indeed, 18th C prose can be majestic, but then so is the effort required to
> appreciate it, although it's worth it. You can't "speed-read" stuff like this;
> it's of an age when humanity didn't have a small box close by which beeps at us
> every couple of minutes with some new imperative. I was intrigued by your
> mention of "balanced clauses" but a quick Google quickly clarified something
> I'd vaguely recognised but had yet to tag with a name - thanks for that! I
> remember when my reading around A-level** English Literature had me stumble on
> the notion of "prose rhythm", and it was a revelation. I can still remember
> the ending of one of the chapters of Joyce's "Portrait of the Artist":
>
> "the tide was flowing in fast to the land with a low whisper of her waves,
> islanding a few last figures in distant pools."
>
> It's like the final notes of a particularly satisfying piece of music, with a
> distinct pause before the first applause as the audience soaks up the echoes.
>
> In our modern age fine writing like this can be made accessible through audio
> books, given a skilled narrator. I'm currently working through Homer's
> Oddysey, where the power of the language shines through the translation
> process. And this would originally have been experienced aloud, I rather
> think.
>
> Back to the topic:
>
> It seemed to me that the academic world would have addressed the need to
> capture historical English as text, and a Google for "OCR tool for historical
> English" brought up several promising links. Of course the academic world
> would likely want to preserve the original spelling and typography while being
> able to process text for the purposes of search and re-flow, for example.
> Indeed, both Shakespeare and Chaucer lose a great deal of every kind of nuance
> when squished into modern language, so it's well worth the effort to work at
> the originals. (Not learning ancient greek any time soon, though!)
>
> **For non-UK readers, A-level ("Advanced Level") is a school certificate
> typically studied in three subjects from ages 16 to 18.
>
>
>
I don't know who came up with the terminology "balanced", but I've
always suspected it was someone militating against Ernest Hemingway's
prose style; against the short, sharp sentences. "Fred looked at the
river. The river flowed. It flowed into the ocean. Fred ....."
Ed

Ed Cryer wrote:
> Philip Herlihy wrote:
>> In article <uh5lqb$33k92$1@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer wrote...
>>>
>>> knuttle wrote:
>>>> On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>> Peter Jason wrote:
>>>>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
>>>>>> "F"  is often used as "S".
>>>>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
>> ...
>>
>>> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
>>> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith in
>>> the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty of
>>> balanced clauses.
>>>
>>> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
>>> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
>>> https://www.gutenberg.org/
>>>
>>> Ed
>>
>> Indeed, 18th C prose can be majestic, but then so is the effort
>> required to
>> appreciate it, although it's worth it.  You can't "speed-read" stuff
>> like this;
>> it's of an age when humanity didn't have a small box close by which
>> beeps at us
>> every couple of minutes with some new imperative.  I was intrigued by
>> your
>> mention of "balanced clauses" but a quick Google quickly clarified
>> something
>> I'd vaguely recognised but had yet to tag with a name - thanks for
>> that!  I
>> remember when my reading around A-level** English Literature had me
>> stumble on
>> the notion of "prose rhythm", and it was a revelation.  I can still
>> remember
>> the ending of one of the chapters of Joyce's "Portrait of the Artist":
>>
>> "the tide was flowing in fast to the land with a low whisper of her
>> waves,
>> islanding a few last figures in distant pools."
>>
>> It's like the final notes of a particularly satisfying piece of music,
>> with a
>> distinct pause before the first applause as the audience soaks up the
>> echoes.
>>
>> In our modern age fine writing like this can be made accessible
>> through audio
>> books, given a skilled narrator.  I'm currently working through Homer's
>> Oddysey, where the power of the language shines through the translation
>> process.  And this would originally have been experienced aloud, I rather
>> think.
>>
>> Back to the topic:
>>
>> It seemed to me that the academic world would have addressed the need to
>> capture historical English as text, and a Google for "OCR tool for
>> historical
>> English" brought up several promising links.  Of course the academic
>> world
>> would likely want to preserve the original spelling and typography
>> while being
>> able to process text for the purposes of search and re-flow, for example.
>> Indeed, both Shakespeare and Chaucer lose a great deal of every kind
>> of nuance
>> when squished into modern language, so it's well worth the effort to
>> work at
>> the originals.  (Not learning ancient greek any time soon, though!)
>>
>> **For non-UK readers, A-level ("Advanced Level") is a school certificate
>> typically studied in three subjects from ages 16 to 18.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I don't know who came up with the terminology "balanced", but I've
> always suspected it was someone militating against Ernest Hemingway's
> prose style; against the short, sharp sentences. "Fred looked at the
> river. The river flowed. It flowed into the ocean. Fred ....."
>
> Ed
>
>
>
A more "balanced" style might have written;
Fred's gaze was drawn inexorably to the river as it flowed in its banks,
and he was hit with the usual thoughts of human fallibility and the
hopelessness of battling against the stream.
Ed

In article <uhbk5i$tif2$1@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer wrote...
>
> Philip Herlihy wrote:
> > In article <uh5lqb$33k92$1@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer wrote...
> >>
> >> knuttle wrote:
> >>> On 10/23/2023 4:18 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> >>>> Peter Jason wrote:
> >>>>> I come across old books written in 17th & 18th century English, where
> >>>>> "F"  is often used as "S".
> >>>>> Is it possible to render this text into modern spelling?
> > ...
> >
> >> Indeed, but not in modern issues of those books.
> >> I love 18th c. prose. It seems to me to have reached the very zenith in
> >> the works of David Hume and his contemporaries. Clarity and beauty of
> >> balanced clauses.
> >>
> >> Most of those books are way, way out of copyright issues, and a quick
> >> google will find many modern transcriptions, not least in;
> >> https://www.gutenberg.org/
> >>
> >> Ed
> >
> > Indeed, 18th C prose can be majestic, but then so is the effort required to
> > appreciate it, although it's worth it. You can't "speed-read" stuff like this;
> > it's of an age when humanity didn't have a small box close by which beeps at us
> > every couple of minutes with some new imperative. I was intrigued by your
> > mention of "balanced clauses" but a quick Google quickly clarified something
> > I'd vaguely recognised but had yet to tag with a name - thanks for that! I
> > remember when my reading around A-level** English Literature had me stumble on
> > the notion of "prose rhythm", and it was a revelation. I can still remember
> > the ending of one of the chapters of Joyce's "Portrait of the Artist":
> >
> > "the tide was flowing in fast to the land with a low whisper of her waves,
> > islanding a few last figures in distant pools."
> >
> > It's like the final notes of a particularly satisfying piece of music, with a
> > distinct pause before the first applause as the audience soaks up the echoes.
> >
> > In our modern age fine writing like this can be made accessible through audio
> > books, given a skilled narrator. I'm currently working through Homer's
> > Oddysey, where the power of the language shines through the translation
> > process. And this would originally have been experienced aloud, I rather
> > think.
> >
> > Back to the topic:
> >
> > It seemed to me that the academic world would have addressed the need to
> > capture historical English as text, and a Google for "OCR tool for historical
> > English" brought up several promising links. Of course the academic world
> > would likely want to preserve the original spelling and typography while being
> > able to process text for the purposes of search and re-flow, for example.
> > Indeed, both Shakespeare and Chaucer lose a great deal of every kind of nuance
> > when squished into modern language, so it's well worth the effort to work at
> > the originals. (Not learning ancient greek any time soon, though!)
> >
> > **For non-UK readers, A-level ("Advanced Level") is a school certificate
> > typically studied in three subjects from ages 16 to 18.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I don't know who came up with the terminology "balanced", but I've
> always suspected it was someone militating against Ernest Hemingway's
> prose style; against the short, sharp sentences. "Fred looked at the
> river. The river flowed. It flowed into the ocean. Fred ....."
>
> Ed

I remember reading that the goal to aim for was a sense of rhythm and
randomness at the same time, with sentences of varying length, so that no
sooner have you begun to detect a rhythm than it's changed. "Bursty" might
describe it.

--

Phil, London