So I took:
* what everybody knows about RMS
* relative file and direct access fixed length file examples
I recently posted
* the index-sequential file examples I have used numerous times before
* some file read and file creation test code I did a few years ago
and baked it into:

https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/rms.html

Arne

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 2:43:25 AM UTC-5, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <umqcjd$1er1l$1...@dont-email.me>, ar...@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
> wrote:
>
> > https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/rms.html
>
> Good work. You might want to explain why StreamCR is provided: I doubt it
> is because of traditional Mac format, because VMS predates Mac by several
> years. Was it used by older DEC OSes?
>
> John

IIRC, all Stream formats were used to support i/o operations from C/C++

Neil Rieck

On 12/31/2023 2:43 AM, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <umqcjd$1er1l$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
> wrote:
>> https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/rms.html
>
> Good work. You might want to explain why StreamCR is provided: I doubt it
> is because of traditional Mac format, because VMS predates Mac by several
> years. Was it used by older DEC OSes?

Good question. I don't know.

RSX-11? RT-11? RSTS/E? TOPS-10?

Anyone?

Arne

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 07:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

> You might want to explain why StreamCR is provided: I doubt
> it is because of traditional Mac format, because VMS predates Mac by
> several years.

Support for STREAM_xx formats in RMS were not added until VMS 4.0, near as
I can tell. And that dates from around the time of the release of the Mac.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:34 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

> On reflection, I think CP/M inherited using CR from a DEC OS, but I
> don't know which one: the original author of CP/M was familiar with
> multiple operating systems.

CP/M used CR/LF, which is why MS-DOS did the same, and Windows still does.

As I recall, Gary Kildall did his early cross-development of CP/M on a
PDP-10 machine running TOPS-10.

Clearly, DEC OSes gave him the idea of device names, though he simplified
them down to a single letter for his 8-bit OS, just for disks. But then
you needed ways of accessing non-disk devices like serial lines, printers,
etc; so either he or Microsoft introduced “reserved” file names for these.
And that’s where you get “PRN”, “COM1” and all the rest.

Then when Microsoft tried to copy some Unix features in MS-DOS 2.x, like
hierarchical pathnames, these interacted in rather unfortunate ways with
the “reserved” file names. And that bit of sadness persists in Windows to
this day. Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some
reason.

Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”

On 12/31/2023 4:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 07:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:
>> You might want to explain why StreamCR is provided: I doubt
>> it is because of traditional Mac format, because VMS predates Mac by
>> several years.
>
> Support for STREAM_xx formats in RMS were not added until VMS 4.0, near as
> I can tell. And that dates from around the time of the release of the Mac.

That surprises me. I always thought they had been there since day 1.

But I started with VMS 4.4, so I don't know early VMS first hand.

And the RMS manual for VMS 2.0:

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/2.0/AA-D031C-TE_VAX-11_2.0_Record_Management_Services_Reference_Manual_198003.pdf

does not list the stream formats, so it indeed look like a
later addition.

But that is sort of the benefit from RMS. It is possible to
add an entirely new record format and everything calling
SYS$GET directly or indirectly via language IO will not
need any change.

Arne

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 07:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:
>
>> You might want to explain why StreamCR is provided: I doubt
>> it is because of traditional Mac format, because VMS predates Mac by
>> several years.
>
>Support for STREAM_xx formats in RMS were not added until VMS 4.0, near as
>I can tell. And that dates from around the time of the release of the Mac.

Most operating systems out there only used stream_lf and stream_cr. Whether
lf or crlf was used depended a lot on the whims of the original developers.
Most terminals had a switch that allowed you to toggle them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 31/12/2023 21:50, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:34 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:
>
>> On reflection, I think CP/M inherited using CR from a DEC OS, but I
>> don't know which one: the original author of CP/M was familiar with
>> multiple operating systems.
>
> CP/M used CR/LF, which is why MS-DOS did the same, and Windows still does.
>
> As I recall, Gary Kildall did his early cross-development of CP/M on a
> PDP-10 machine running TOPS-10.
>
> Clearly, DEC OSes gave him the idea of device names, though he simplified
> them down to a single letter for his 8-bit OS, just for disks. But then
> you needed ways of accessing non-disk devices like serial lines, printers,
> etc; so either he or Microsoft introduced “reserved” file names for these.
> And that’s where you get “PRN”, “COM1” and all the rest.
>
> Then when Microsoft tried to copy some Unix features in MS-DOS 2.x, like
> hierarchical pathnames, these interacted in rather unfortunate ways with
> the “reserved” file names. And that bit of sadness persists in Windows to
> this day. Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some
> reason.
>
> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”

Along with 64k...

--
Chris

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:53:01 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:

> On 31/12/2023 21:50, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”
>
> Along with 64k...

You mean “640k” ... no, it’s unlikely Bill Gates would ever have said such
a thing.

In article <memo.20231231074319.16260W@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <umqcjd$1er1l$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajh�j)
>wrote:
>
>> https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/rms.html
>
>Good work. You might want to explain why StreamCR is provided: I doubt it
>is because of traditional Mac format, because VMS predates Mac by several
>years. Was it used by older DEC OSes?

Perhaps for direct terminal input. By default, DEC terminals
like the VT100 only send a CR when the RETURN key is pressed.
(They can be configured to send CRLF via an option on the setup
screen, however.) Anyway, I'm speculating, but I can imagine a
mode in which data is copied directly from a terminal to a file
preserving the single CR character.

- Dan C.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:11:45 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 12/31/2023 4:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Support for STREAM_xx formats in RMS were not added until VMS 4.0, near
>> as I can tell. And that dates from around the time of the release of
>> the Mac.
>
> That surprises me. I always thought they had been there since day 1.
>
> But I started with VMS 4.4, so I don't know early VMS first hand.

I first got my hands on a VMS system in 1979. I was a first-year Comp Sci
student, and first-year students were not supposed to have access to time-
sharing accounts. But the difference between that and RSTS/E (which I also
was not supposed to have access to) was like night and day.

I’m not sure what version of VMS that was. It was likely 2.2, or possibly
earlier. There was an interesting privilege-escalation security hole in
2.2’s handling of message sections, which became quite clear if you read
the internals manual ... which I only got my hands on after we had
upgraded to 3.0.

I can remember quite a few other milestones off the top of my head. Like
some compatibility issues with the third-party serial drivers in VMS 2.x,
which went away in 3.0 because the terminal driver was split into a
(hardware-independent) “class” driver and a (hardware-specific) “port”
driver. This meant that third-party hardware vendors only needed to supply
their own “port” driver, and they automatically got all the standard QIO
and control-character support, just like DEC’s own terminal drivers.

VMS 4.0 was also the version that increased the length of file names from
9-dot-3 to 39-dot-39.

On 31 Dec 2023 22:18:06 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Most operating systems out there only used stream_lf and stream_cr.

Actually I think the timing of addition of those STREAM_xx formats was a
little too early to be credited/blamed on the Mac. STREAM_CRLF would have
been because of the massive popularity of MS-DOS and the IBM PC by that
time, and STREAM_LF was similarly a sign of feeling the pressure from
Unix. STREAM_CR ... maybe that was just stuck in for completeness. I
really don’t know of any other OSes that might have used it, apart from
old MacOS.

On 12/31/2023 4:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some
> reason.
>
> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”

You can mount disks without using drive letters with NTFS.

It is just that nobody use it.

Probably because 26 letters actually are more than enough.

Arne

On 12/31/2023 6:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:11:45 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/31/2023 4:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> Support for STREAM_xx formats in RMS were not added until VMS 4.0, near
>>> as I can tell. And that dates from around the time of the release of
>>> the Mac.
>>
>> That surprises me. I always thought they had been there since day 1.
>>
>> But I started with VMS 4.4, so I don't know early VMS first hand.

> VMS 4.0 was also the version that increased the length of file names from
> 9-dot-3 to 39-dot-39.

That I did know.

Arne

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:38:00 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 12/31/2023 4:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some reason.
>>
>> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”
>
> You can mount disks without using drive letters with NTFS.

As I recall from reading docs, that doesn’t work with network shares or
hot-pluggable storage. Or this thing called “storage spaces”.

And remember, it’s NTFS-specific. Windows lacks the equivalent of a fully
general VFS layer, for some totally unfathomable reason.

On 12/31/2023 9:05 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:38:00 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/31/2023 4:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some reason.
>>>
>>> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”
>>
>> You can mount disks without using drive letters with NTFS.
>
> As I recall from reading docs, that doesn’t work with network shares or
> hot-pluggable storage. Or this thing called “storage spaces”.

You don't need it for a network share - those can just be accessed
directly via UNC.

(it is said that one can make a symlink to UNC if one want to)

> And remember, it’s NTFS-specific.

It is specific to the file system used on practically all Windows
disks.

> Windows lacks the equivalent of a fully
> general VFS layer, for some totally unfathomable reason.

I don't think many Windows users miss it.

Arne

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:36:33 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 12/31/2023 9:05 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:38:00 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/31/2023 4:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some
>>>> reason.
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”
>>>
>>> You can mount disks without using drive letters with NTFS.
>>
>> As I recall from reading docs, that doesn’t work with network shares or
>> hot-pluggable storage. Or this thing called “storage spaces”.
>
> You don't need it for a network share - those can just be accessed
> directly via UNC.

So how do you select from available UNC shares in an application’s file
picker?

> (it is said that one can make a symlink to UNC if one want to)

Windows symlinks have their own share of problems.

>> And remember, it’s NTFS-specific.
>
> It is specific to the file system used on practically all Windows disks.

That’s a pretty shortsighted attitude, when you realize that NTFS is
starting to show its age.

>> Windows lacks the equivalent of a fully general VFS layer, for some
>> totally unfathomable reason.
>
> I don't think many Windows users miss it.

That’s true of the Windows users/developers that are left. The ones that
understand the need, know where to get it. That’s why Microsoft is trying
desperately (with WSL2 and other things) to make Windows more like Linux.

On 12/31/2023 9:40 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:36:33 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/31/2023 9:05 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:38:00 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/31/2023 4:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> Along with those 8-bit-era single-letter drive names, for some
>>>>> reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft: “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody!”
>>>>
>>>> You can mount disks without using drive letters with NTFS.
>>>
>>> As I recall from reading docs, that doesn’t work with network shares or
>>> hot-pluggable storage. Or this thing called “storage spaces”.
>>
>> You don't need it for a network share - those can just be accessed
>> directly via UNC.
>
> So how do you select from available UNC shares in an application’s file
> picker?
>
>> (it is said that one can make a symlink to UNC if one want to)
>
> Windows symlinks have their own share of problems.

If one is a Windows user that:
* need more than 26 drives
* need to use a file picker to choose network drives
* don't like to create symlinks
then one has a problem.

But my guess is that you can invite everyone in the world matching
that criteria to coffee in your dining room.

>>> And remember, it’s NTFS-specific.
>>
>> It is specific to the file system used on practically all Windows disks.
>
> That’s a pretty shortsighted attitude, when you realize that NTFS is
> starting to show its age.

AFAIK there are no current plans to replace NTFS.

And when they eventually replace it, then it seems likely that
the NTFS feature set will be made requirements for the new
file system. Backwards compatibility is a big thing for Microsoft.

>>> Windows lacks the equivalent of a fully general VFS layer, for some
>>> totally unfathomable reason.
>>
>> I don't think many Windows users miss it.
>
> That’s true of the Windows users/developers that are left. The ones that
> understand the need, know where to get it. That’s why Microsoft is trying
> desperately (with WSL2 and other things) to make Windows more like Linux.

WSL is not an attempt to make Windows like Linux.

WSL is a tool for developers that need to develop for both
Windows and Linux on Windows.

Arne

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:52:53 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> If one is a Windows user that:
> * need more than 26 drives

Or even just wants something more meaningful than a single-letter name for
their volumes.

> AFAIK there are no current plans to replace NTFS.

Not that Microsoft hasn’t tried, somewhat. See ReFS.

> WSL is not an attempt to make Windows like Linux.

It is precisely that. It’s even in the name: guess what the “L” stands
for?

On 12/31/2023 10:09 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:52:53 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> WSL is not an attempt to make Windows like Linux.
>
> It is precisely that. It’s even in the name: guess what the “L” stands
> for?

It stands for Linux, but that does not mean that they are trying to
move the general Windows user to a Linux experience.

It has a rather specific target group.

To quote from the WSL FAQ:

<quote>
Who is WSL for?

This is primarily a tool for developers, especially web developers,
those working on open source projects, or deploying to Linux server
environments. WSL is for anyone who likes using Bash, common Linux tools
(sed, awk, etc.) and Linux-first frameworks (Ruby, Python, etc.) but
also enjoys using Windows productivity tools
</quote>

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq

Arne

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:35:34 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> It stands for Linux, but that does not mean that they are trying to move
> the general Windows user to a Linux experience.

That seems inevitable, though. At some point it is going to become a
mandatory part of any Windows install. I’m not saying it was Microsoft’s
conscious intention when they introduced it, but it will become the path
of least resistance.

On 01/01/2024 04:51, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:35:34 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> It stands for Linux, but that does not mean that they are trying to move
>> the general Windows user to a Linux experience.
>
> That seems inevitable, though. At some point it is going to become a
> mandatory part of any Windows install. I’m not saying it was Microsoft’s
> conscious intention when they introduced it, but it will become the path
> of least resistance.

If I wanted to create something in Linux, I would not use WSL, I would
use a proper distribution, either under a VM or on the various physical
linux devices I have

--
Chris

On 12/31/2023 11:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:35:34 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

>> It stands for Linux, but that does not mean that they are trying to move
>> the general Windows user to a Linux experience.
>
> That seems inevitable, though. At some point it is going to become a
> mandatory part of any Windows install. I’m not saying it was Microsoft’s
> conscious intention when they introduced it, but it will become the path
> of least resistance.

MS could roll it out to every Windows user tomorrow if they
wanted to.

But why on earth would they want to do that??

For servers the preference is real ESXi/Hyper-V/KVM not WSL.

For desktop/laptop the vast majorities of users has no interest
in Linux at all. Windows are facing serious challenges, but not
from (traditional) Linux. Windows usage is dropping because
people are switching to Android/iOS phones/tablets.

People are switching from a GUI centric OS (Windows) to
GUI only OS (Android & iOS) for casual use. Expecting them
to use WSL command line utilities is a non-starter.

Arne

On 1/1/2024 7:25 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 01/01/2024 04:51, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:35:34 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> It stands for Linux, but that does not mean that they are trying to move
>>> the general Windows user to a Linux experience.
>>
>> That seems inevitable, though. At some point it is going to become a
>> mandatory part of any Windows install. I’m not saying it was Microsoft’s
>> conscious intention when they introduced it, but it will become the path
>> of least resistance.
>
> If I wanted to create something in Linux, I would not use WSL, I would
> use a proper distribution, either under a VM or on the various physical
> linux devices I have

You sort of get both with WSL.

You get a VM with a Linux distro of your choice (among the
approx. dozen that MS supports) that behaves pretty much like
any other Linux VM. Except that there are no visible startup time.

But you also get the ability to use Linux commands in
your CMD windows. Example:

wsl ls -la

They do some magic to utilize the Linux stuff in the VM.

I would not use WSL to run a server of any kind. But to
do a Linux build of some code, then why not.

Arne

In article <umujck$282li$1@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 12/31/2023 11:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 22:35:34 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>>> It stands for Linux, but that does not mean that they are trying to move
>>> the general Windows user to a Linux experience.
>>
>> That seems inevitable, though. At some point it is going to become a
>> mandatory part of any Windows install. I’m not saying it was Microsoft’s
>> conscious intention when they introduced it, but it will become the path
>> of least resistance.
>
>MS could roll it out to every Windows user tomorrow if they
>wanted to.
>
>But why on earth would they want to do that??

To pave a way for MSFT to jetison Windows in favor of Linux.

Maintaining an OS like Windows is expensive and requires a
steady stream of talent. There is more talent working on that
kind of thing outside of Microsoft than inside, just not on
Windows: most of the work is happening around Linux. Being able
to leverage that investment would be a strategic win.

>For servers the preference is real ESXi/Hyper-V/KVM not WSL.
>
>For desktop/laptop the vast majorities of users has no interest
>in Linux at all. Windows are facing serious challenges, but not
>from (traditional) Linux. Windows usage is dropping because
>people are switching to Android/iOS phones/tablets.
>
>People are switching from a GUI centric OS (Windows) to
>GUI only OS (Android & iOS) for casual use. Expecting them
>to use WSL command line utilities is a non-starter.

This conflates two things: WSL as a path for moving to Linux
as the kernel substrate for Microsoft's OS offerings, and using
WSL as an end user.

The latter is likely never going to happen outside of developer
communities. The former could well happen; WSL gives MSFT a
low-cost way to dip their toe into the waters and explore
interoperability between the traditional Windows API and Linux.

- Dan C.