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computers / comp.os.vms / Re: Microkernels

SubjectAuthor
* MicrokernelsSimon Clubley
+- Re: MicrokernelsArne Vajhøj
`* Re: MicrokernelsLawrence D'Oliveiro
 `* Re: MicrokernelsScott Dorsey
  `- Re: MicrokernelsLawrence D'Oliveiro

1
Microkernels

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From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Microkernels
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Simon Clubley - Mon, 8 Jan 2024 13:57 UTC

On 2024-01-05, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
> That can be blamed on the limitations of Mach. People still seem to think
> microkernels are somehow a good idea, but they really don?t help much, do
> they?
>

The seL4 and QNX users would probably disagree with you. Strongly.

Microkernels offer excellent security and isolation benefits that
monolithic kernels cannot provide.

It really is a pity Linux didn't go down the microkernel route. I suspect
many of the kernel-level vulnerabilities would be far less severe in such
an environment.

In case you are unaware BTW, the monolithic versus microkernel design was
a _major_ debating point in the early days of Linux.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Re: Microkernels

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From: arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: Microkernels
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 09:48:00 -0500
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 by: Arne Vajhøj - Mon, 8 Jan 2024 14:48 UTC

On 1/8/2024 8:57 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> Microkernels offer excellent security and isolation benefits that
> monolithic kernels cannot provide.

That is sort of by definition.

And there are use cases where that requirement is
everything.

But for traditional server and desktop it seems like
either monolith or hybrid is the preference.

Key question must be whether that is just for historic
reasons or there is a technical reason - aka that a
pure microkernel design does not perform good enough.

Arne

Re: Microkernels

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From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: Microkernels
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:31:55 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:31 UTC

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley wrote:

> It really is a pity Linux didn't go down the microkernel route.

Andy Tanenbaum already had an argument with Linus Torvalds about that, and
lost.

Today, Tanenbaum has (unsuccessfully) been trying to commercialize MINIX,
while Linux essentially dominates the computing world.

Re: Microkernels

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From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: Microkernels
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 by: Scott Dorsey - Tue, 9 Jan 2024 14:54 UTC

In article <uni7mb$1o066$1@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>> It really is a pity Linux didn't go down the microkernel route.
>
>Andy Tanenbaum already had an argument with Linus Torvalds about that, and
>lost.
>
>Today, Tanenbaum has (unsuccessfully) been trying to commercialize MINIX,
>while Linux essentially dominates the computing world.

Although at the same time QNX continues plugging along with a small but
dedicated customer base.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: Microkernels

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From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: Microkernels
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 by: Lawrence D'Oliv - Tue, 9 Jan 2024 20:11 UTC

On 9 Jan 2024 14:54:30 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> In article <uni7mb$1o066$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Today, Tanenbaum has (unsuccessfully) been trying to commercialize
>>MINIX, while Linux essentially dominates the computing world.
>
> Although at the same time QNX continues plugging along with a small but
> dedicated customer base.

So, would you say that microkernels have a better than 50% success rate,
or not?

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