On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:59:10 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:
> Seeing someone else's workflow causes me to think about my own approach.
> - Place files in shared folder(s)
> - Work on stuff from anywhere

I thought of that, but it requires having at least one computer
running all the time, or booting it up when I want to get files onto
the other computer.

Perhaps you meant cloud storage? But there is no such thing as the
Cloud; it's just someone else's computer. :-)

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:59:10 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:
>> Seeing someone else's workflow causes me to think about my own approach.
>> - Place files in shared folder(s)
>> - Work on stuff from anywhere
>
> I thought of that, but it requires having at least one computer
> running all the time, or booting it up when I want to get files onto
> the other computer.
>
> Perhaps you meant cloud storage? But there is no such thing as the
> Cloud; it's just someone else's computer. :-)
>

A NAS drive on your LAN would provide the shared folders.

Note: this is not a backup mechanism!

--
Graham J

On 30 Oct 2023 15:14:47 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Work on stuff on desktop PC. Archive attribute is set *only* on
> *modified*/*new* files.

I started this thread because of programs that write all their
settings to the same file in %APPDATA% when they exit. (I understand
why they do it unconditionally: it's easier than keeping track of
whether any options have been changed.) Those files, having been
written, will have the "A" attribute set, but that doesn't tell
whether they're actually different.

(Robocopy has an /IA:A option to include only files with the A
attribute set.)

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

Char Jackson wrote on 30-Oct-23 7:59 AM:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 07:07:16 -0700, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>> Here's my workflow:
>
> Seeing someone else's workflow causes me to think about my own approach.
> - Place files in shared folder(s)
> - Work on stuff from anywhere
>
>> Work on stuff on desktop PC
>> Files copy desktop --> USB stick
>> Files copy USB stick --> laptop
>> Work on stuff on laptop
>> Files copy laptop --> USB stick
>> Files copy USB stick --> desktop PC
>> And repeat
>>
>> Typically not more than a few MB get copied in any one
>> run.
>

+1 for shared and working/saving from that same source.

Compared to Stan's approach using a USB stick as the media for to/from
multiple devices, it would be less work if copying is the method, to just
copy between the two devices on the same network rather than
inserting/removing/repeat etc. a USB stick.

There are other options(e.g. cloud based OneDrive or even OneDrive's
Personal Vault) that can be accessed on any device with the same MSA
logon...but while an option, the steps and time to do so would never be
as favorable as shared folder on a network or copying to different shared
folders on each device on a network.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On 30 Oct 2023 15:14:47 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Work on stuff on desktop PC. Archive attribute is set *only* on
> > *modified*/*new* files.
>
> I started this thread because of programs that write all their
> settings to the same file in %APPDATA% when they exit. (I understand
> why they do it unconditionally: it's easier than keeping track of
> whether any options have been changed.) Those files, having been
> written, will have the "A" attribute set, but that doesn't tell
> whether they're actually different.

Couldn't you special-case just those settings-files and check if they
changed with a checksum or something and copy your other files with a
method like I described? I.e. I assume that you have more work-,
personal-, <whatever>-files than those %APPDATA% settings files. I.e.
one size doen't neccessarily fit all.

> (Robocopy has an /IA:A option to include only files with the A
> attribute set.)

Does it have the equivalent of both the xcopy '/A' option (copy, but
do not clear the 'A' attribute) *and* the xcopy '/M' option (copy and
clear the 'A' attribute), because you need both?

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:59:10 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:
> > Seeing someone else's workflow causes me to think about my own approach.
> > - Place files in shared folder(s)
> > - Work on stuff from anywhere
>
> I thought of that, but it requires having at least one computer
> running all the time, or booting it up when I want to get files onto
> the other computer.

You could 'push' the files to the other computer automatically, but
that of course requires that both computers are online for at least a
short time. If it's an either-or situation, that won't work.

> Perhaps you meant cloud storage? But there is no such thing as the
> Cloud; it's just someone else's computer. :-)

As Graham mentioned, a local NAS can contain a Network Share which can
be accessed by either computer and - if desired - the NAS can be
configured to automatically wake up when it's accessed.

But a NAS is not free, but often cheaper than most people think. Mine
(Synology DS115j) was EUR 89 (excluding disk (4TB, EUR 149)).

FYI, we also have two computers - my laptop and SWMBO's 'desktop' -
and having a NAS is very nice, for all kinds of reasons, including the
above, but also for (part of one's) backup, streaming your media, etc.,
etc..

On 10/30/2023 10:07 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:25:49 -0400, Paul wrote:
>>
>> On 10/29/2023 6:02 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:01:16 -0400, Paul wrote:
>>>> Robocopy is not a synchronization utility.
>>>>
>>>> It is a fancy copy utility with pseudo-policies of some sort (MIR).
>>>>
>>>> Some functions in life, are outside of the responsibilities of a copy utility.
>>>> Then you need a synchronization utility.
>>>
>>> You've lost me. What features would be in a sync utility that aren't
>>> in Robocopy?
>>
>> You asked for a scheme, which did not use the date, but
>> referred to content changes as the trigger for copying
>> the new info.
>
> Not
>> A synchronization scheme should not "rely" on the date,
>> since date stamps on a computer are not reliable. For
>> example, TZ and FAT32 mess with the details (your portable device
>> may have been used on multiple computers, ones with messed up
>> clocks or whatever - not all the computers in the house have
>> valid TZ configurations). A synchronization program then, could have
>> a vested interest in examining content as a trigger. Perhaps
>> there would be a tick box for that.
>>
>> A synchronization program might have to ask you "what should I do?",
>> when an unexpected thing happens. Robocopy isn't designed for
>> stopping particularly. It will "skip" stuff not meeting requirements
>> and make a log entry. This is why you always generate a logfile
>> when running Robocopy (and walking away from it).
>>
>> This is outside the purview of simple copy programs such as Robocopy.
>> Robocopy approach is prefaced on ordinary rotating hard drives,
>> where there is no appreciable wear from doing excess writes.
>>
>> Normally, with hard drives, there is no cost other than time wasted,
>> for copying a file you suspect may be more recent than the one
>> at the destination. However, on flash based devices, you have the
>> "wear aspect" to worry about. Then, it is a user tradeoff, as
>> to whether writes are to be avoided, by comparing file contents (slower)
>> to see if doing a write is really necessary. A further optimization,
>> would only be updating blocks that had changed. Not all file formats
>> make that a useful approach. Only some, change at the individual block
>> level.
>>
>> The author of Robocopy, thought he was doing a replacement
>> for xxcopy, rather than a feature set for file synchronization
>> (where files could travel in both directions, not just one direction).
>
> If I understand you correctly, then I do want a file
> copy utility, not a synchronization utility. While
> files travel in two directions in different runs, in
> any one run they travel in only one direction.
>
> Here's my workflow:
>
> Work on stuff on desktop PC
> Files copy desktop --> USB stick
> Files copy USB stick --> laptop
> Work on stuff on laptop
> Files copy laptop --> USB stick
> Files copy USB stick --> desktop PC
> And repeat
>
> Typically not more than a few MB get copied in any one
> run.
>
>> I know some concepts, but I don't use all these ideas in practice.
>> (Any sync I was doing, was done manually, between home and work.)
>
>
Use Dropbox or similar for working then every access is to the current
status BUT never run more than one device at a time. Backup Dropbox to
an external drive. Alternately exchange at least a second backup drive
and disconnect one for protection from ransom ware.

On 10/30/23 13:31, Graham J wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:59:10 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:
>>> Seeing someone else's workflow causes me to think about my own approach.
>>>   - Place files in shared folder(s)
>>>   - Work on stuff from anywhere
>>
>> I thought of that, but it requires having at least one computer
>> running all the time, or booting it up when I want to get files onto
>> the other computer.
>>
>> Perhaps you meant cloud storage? But there is no such thing as the
>> Cloud; it's just someone else's computer. :-)
>>
>
>
> A NAS drive on your LAN would provide the shared folders.
>
> Note: this is not a backup mechanism!

Backups should always be offline when you're not actually backing up or
restoring, which is the opposite of what you're doing with a NAS.

--
56 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are
sure of." -- Clarence Darrow

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:31:19 +0000, Graham J wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
> > [quoted text muted]
> >
> > Perhaps you meant cloud storage? But there is no such thing as the
> > Cloud; it's just someone else's computer. :-)
>
> A NAS drive on your LAN would provide the shared folders.

If I already had a NAS setup, it would, I agree, be the obvious
choice.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 30 Oct 2023 19:16:44 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > On 30 Oct 2023 15:14:47 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > > Work on stuff on desktop PC. Archive attribute is set *only* on
> > > *modified*/*new* files.
> >
> > I started this thread because of programs that write all their
> > settings to the same file in %APPDATA% when they exit. (I understand
> > why they do it unconditionally: it's easier than keeping track of
> > whether any options have been changed.) Those files, having been
> > written, will have the "A" attribute set, but that doesn't tell
> > whether they're actually different.
>
> Couldn't you special-case just those settings-files and check if they
> changed with a checksum or something and copy your other files with a
> method like I described?

Yes, that's what I'm planning to do.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 10/25/23 13:55, Stan Brown wrote:
> There doesn't seem to be an easy answer to my query about not having
> Robocopy write files when the source and destination have identical
> contents but different timestamps. The main reason I cared was not
> wanting to wear out flash memory prematurely.
>
> That leads me to ask: is there any way to tell when a flash drive is
> getting close to needing replacement, before it actually starts to
> accumulate data errors?
>

Hi Stan,

I am getting on this a bit late, so I do not know
if you will see it. And it is not exactly what you
asked. BUT WHEN DOES THAT STOP ME!!!! <Maniacal Laughter>

I created a full installation (not a Live) of Fedora
Linux on a flash drive. This required that the flash
drive be able to handle multiple small file transfers
in rapid succession and no corruptions. This is very
similar to backups to a flash drive.

The ONLY manufacture of flash drive I found that could
handle this was Samsung.

https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/memory-storage/all-memory-storage/?technology=USB+Flash+Drives

I loaded up this Fedora flash drive with all kinds of
cool tools to rescue Windows system and helpful How To's.
I use it all the time.

HTH,
-T

On 27/10/2023 12:45, T wrote:
> On 10/27/23 04:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-10-27 07:41, T wrote:
>>> On 10/25/23 18:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> nvme smart-log /dev/nvme0n1
>>>
>>> Hi Carlos.
>>>
>>> Now that command I do love!  Thank you!
>>>
>>> Hmmmmmm:  media_errors = 0   Yippee!
>>>
>>
>> Welcome :-)
>>
>> Now we have to find if there is a Windows version ;-)
>>
>
>
> I use gsmartcontrol on Windows

As Carlos and I just said, it doesn't seem to work, or maybe to work on
many, NVMe drives.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 11/3/2023 10:37 PM, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 27/10/2023 12:45, T wrote:
>> On 10/27/23 04:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-27 07:41, T wrote:
>>>> On 10/25/23 18:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>> nvme smart-log /dev/nvme0n1
>>>>
>>>> Hi Carlos.
>>>>
>>>> Now that command I do love!  Thank you!
>>>>
>>>> Hmmmmmm:  media_errors = 0   Yippee!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Welcome :-)
>>>
>>> Now we have to find if there is a Windows version ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> I use gsmartcontrol on Windows
>
> As Carlos and I just said, it doesn't seem to work, or maybe to work on many, NVMe drives.
>

What about stuff like this ?

https://semiconductor.samsung.com/us/consumer-storage/magician/

Paul

On 11/4/23 08:22, Paul wrote:
> On 11/3/2023 10:37 PM, Brian Gregory wrote:
>> On 27/10/2023 12:45, T wrote:
>>> On 10/27/23 04:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-27 07:41, T wrote:
>>>>> On 10/25/23 18:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>>> nvme smart-log /dev/nvme0n1
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Carlos.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now that command I do love!  Thank you!
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmmmmm:  media_errors = 0   Yippee!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Welcome :-)
>>>>
>>>> Now we have to find if there is a Windows version ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I use gsmartcontrol on Windows
>>
>> As Carlos and I just said, it doesn't seem to work, or maybe to work on many, NVMe drives.
>>
>
> What about stuff like this ?
>
> https://semiconductor.samsung.com/us/consumer-storage/magician/
>
> Paul

Since I have taken it in the shorts replacing SSD drive for
free, I only will Sell Samsung SSD drives, of which I have
had ZERO defects and failures.

As Paul stated, Samsung Magician is a wonderful tool and I
always install it and demonstrate how to use it to my
customers when I install a Samsung drive. But Magician only
works with Samsung drives.

An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
Try the demo and see if you like it:

https://ssd-life.com/

On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>
> https://ssd-life.com/

What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
find?

They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:13:43 -0800, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

>On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
>> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
>> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>>
>> https://ssd-life.com/
>
>What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
>find?
>
>They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
>seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.

SSD Life has a free version and a Pro version. In the free version, which I use
on a laptop with two SSDs, I'd say the biggest limitation is that it only shows
info for the first SSD in the system. I wouldn't call it crap, by any means.

On 06/11/2023 03:13, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
>> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
>> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>>
>> https://ssd-life.com/
>
> What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
> find?
>
> They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
> seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
>

According to the last line of this page

- https://ssd-life.com/eng/SSDLife-Freeware.html

"If you are interested, don’t waste time – the program is 100% free!"

--
Regards
wasbit

On 06/11/2023 03:13, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
>> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
>> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>>
>> https://ssd-life.com/
>
> What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
> find?
>
> They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
> seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
>

Also, the free version can be downloaded from sites such as Cnet,
Softpedia, Afterdawn, etc.

--
Regards
wasbit

On 11/5/23 19:13, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
>> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
>> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>>
>> https://ssd-life.com/
>
> What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
> find?

It did not catch proprietary SSD's that were purchased
as OEM models. You know, the ones that are usually
soldered to the motherboard. I despise the practice.

>
> They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
> seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
>

On 11/6/23 02:15, wasbit wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 03:13, Stan Brown wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
>>> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
>>> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>>>
>>>       https://ssd-life.com/
>>
>> What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
>> find?
>>
>> They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
>> seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
>>
>
> Also, the free version can be downloaded from sites such as Cnet,
> Softpedia, Afterdawn, etc.
>

You can always try it out and see it if catches your SSD drive.

On 06/11/2023 10:11, wasbit wrote:
> According to the last line of this page
>
>  - https://ssd-life.com/eng/SSDLife-Freeware.html
>
> "If you are interested, don’t waste time – the program is 100% free!"

That would be great if they actually provided a download of the free
version but, as far as I can see, they don't. The description of it is
presumably just a way to attract potential customers.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 11/7/23 08:06, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 10:11, wasbit wrote:
>> According to the last line of this page
>>
>>   - https://ssd-life.com/eng/SSDLife-Freeware.html
>>
>> "If you are interested, don’t waste time – the program is 100% free!"
>
> That would be great if they actually provided a download of the free
> version but, as far as I can see, they don't. The description of it is
> presumably just a way to attract potential customers.
>

Download the trial:

https://ssd-life.com/SSDLifePro.exe

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 00:28:12 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:
>
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:13:43 -0800, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
> >> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
> >> Try the demo and see if you like it:
> >>
> >> https://ssd-life.com/
> >
> >What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
> >find?
> >
> >They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
> >seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
>
> SSD Life has a free version and a Pro version. In the free version, which I use
> on a laptop with two SSDs, I'd say the biggest limitation is that it only shows
> info for the first SSD in the system. I wouldn't call it crap, by any means.

I think we're a victim of thread drift. I asked, and the subject line
still says, "check health of a flash drive", but it seems the
discussion has changed to SSDs. Such is Usenet.

I looked at
<https://ssd-life.com/eng/ssdlife-faq-frequently-asked-
questions.html>
and found this:

"What will happen when the lifetime expiration date comes?

"... The peculiarity of SSDs is that after their lifetime is over,
the data does not disappear from them. They just become read-only,
you can read data from it, but you cannot modify it."

If that's true, it's good news for SSD users. Is it also true for
flash drives? My main concern is not replacing a flash drive, because
they're cheap; my concern is not knowing that I _need_ to replace it,
and having its contents be corrupt because writes failed.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 2023-11-08 19:30, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 00:28:12 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:13:43 -0800, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
>>>> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
>>>> Try the demo and see if you like it:
>>>>
>>>> https://ssd-life.com/
>>>
>>> What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
>>> find?
>>>
>>> They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
>>> seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
>>
>> SSD Life has a free version and a Pro version. In the free version, which I use
>> on a laptop with two SSDs, I'd say the biggest limitation is that it only shows
>> info for the first SSD in the system. I wouldn't call it crap, by any means.
>
> I think we're a victim of thread drift. I asked, and the subject line
> still says, "check health of a flash drive", but it seems the
> discussion has changed to SSDs. Such is Usenet.
>
> I looked at
> <https://ssd-life.com/eng/ssdlife-faq-frequently-asked-
> questions.html>
> and found this:
>
> "What will happen when the lifetime expiration date comes?
>
> "... The peculiarity of SSDs is that after their lifetime is over,
> the data does not disappear from them. They just become read-only,
> you can read data from it, but you cannot modify it."
>
> If that's true, it's good news for SSD users. Is it also true for
> flash drives? My main concern is not replacing a flash drive, because
> they're cheap; my concern is not knowing that I _need_ to replace it,
> and having its contents be corrupt because writes failed.

It is an unknown.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 00:28:12 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 19:13:43 -0800, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 15:46:32 -0700, T wrote:
> > >> An alternative is SSD Life, but it does not work so well.
> > >> Try the demo and see if you like it:
> > >>
> > >> https://ssd-life.com/
> > >
> > >What do you mean by "does not work so well"? What problems did you
> > >find?
> > >
> > >They have a free trial, but if the software is crap then a free trial
> > >seems otiose, perhaps even nugatory.
> >
> > SSD Life has a free version and a Pro version. In the free version, which I use
> > on a laptop with two SSDs, I'd say the biggest limitation is that it only shows
> > info for the first SSD in the system. I wouldn't call it crap, by any means.
>
> I think we're a victim of thread drift. I asked, and the subject line
> still says, "check health of a flash drive", but it seems the
> discussion has changed to SSDs. Such is Usenet.
>
> I looked at
> <https://ssd-life.com/eng/ssdlife-faq-frequently-asked-
> questions.html>
> and found this:
>
> "What will happen when the lifetime expiration date comes?
>
> "... The peculiarity of SSDs is that after their lifetime is over,
> the data does not disappear from them. They just become read-only,
> you can read data from it, but you cannot modify it."
>
> If that's true, it's good news for SSD users. Is it also true for
> flash drives? My main concern is not replacing a flash drive, because
> they're cheap; my concern is not knowing that I _need_ to replace it,
> and having its contents be corrupt because writes failed.

I am confused! How could the contents be corrupt without you knowing
it?

If "writes failed", whatever program you used to do the writing would
give an error message and you could/should take appropriate action.

The only 'silent' failure mode in your workflow would be if the USB
memory-stick failed *after* the writing (and the subsequent reading
(copying to the other computer (desktop/laptop)).

But that failure mode will be detected when you start your next
workflow. If the USB memory-stick fails during that next workflow, the
known-good files are still on the 'from' computer, so just to be safe,
you backup those to some media, buy a new USB memory-stick and finish
your workflow.

So let's turn this around: You apparently think you could have a
failure without any kind of recovery, so you should be able to describe
how such a scenario could happen, because I don't see one.