Hello! Please let me know if this is too off topic!

As not to bury the lede, I'd ideally like some general "things to watch
out for" style pointers for using DEC C, for someone used to a [ahem]
slightly more modern ANSI C. I also have some rather low-level technical
questions on the Alpha architecture, specifically as to how I would best
go about compiling my own (lightly) modified PALcode and SRM console on
a modified AlphaPC eval board system I have recently acquired.

Before I get too much further, *just so it stays VMS-related*, I will
say that I've got it to bootstrap OpenVMS, loading from CD while showing
me the copyright notice before freezing. I am fairly skilled in the
principles of embedded systems development, but there's only so far I
can get on my own, despite how incredibly powerful the SRM console
happens to be.

The system in question is a canon branded ZX-series Fiery print
controller. The system developers left an unmodified floppy connector,
so I am able to use the failsafe booter to load images. The SROM
debugger does not seem to be present but I also have no way of knowing
whether the 6-pin connector present where the debug port would be is
still "Normal", in that it has buffers that will keep RS232 signal
levels from popping anything.

The in-built flash claims to have ARC in it but it also seems to need
you to have a pre-made image handy, with the extra partition already
present. I do not have an SCA->50 pin adapter or a SCSI emulator handy
so that'll have to wait.

For some reason the system is detected as a model 164SX, despite seeming
to have a 21164A (according to the stock firmware diagnostics on the
front panel of the system), a symbios SCSI chip and one of those "Mega
IO" ISA peripheral controller chips, implying that this is based on an
LX or UX model alphaPC motherboard. I doubt it's a UX because the
jumpers act like it's an LX, there's four memory slots and the technical
manual implies the UX does all sorts of weird stuff with shift registers
to save cost so I doubt I'd get any prompt were that the case.

Because I have nobody telling me what I can't and shouldn't be doing I
ended up cutting the boot block off the SX164 update image, cutting the
header off the compressed SX164 SRM ROM image and concatinating the boot
block with the ROM file. This gives me what seems to be a bootable,
mostly functional SRM console, save for the lack of access to the flash
chip. Other NVRAM appears unaffected. How elated I was to see that
particular shade of blue flash across *my* monitor for the first time.

As an aside, the version of the SX164 SRM ROM file I've found online
seems to have a very interesting undocumented command, that being
"xcmd", which claims to let me copy a file to memory over serial. I
suspect I need to use the xload or maybe uload tool from the SDK to use
this, and then also modify them slightly, but I've yet to be arsed. It's
not xmodem, I know that much for sure.

From there, I'm able to bootstrap OpenVMS, Tru64 and Linux from CD, but
OpenVMS freezes on the copyright notice and Tru freezes many several
lines after booting the kernel, which is very cool but is not very
helpful. Linux does a little better, able to get as far as doing an
isapnp probe but then immediately kernel panics. This tells me I might
be able to boot linux on this thing as-is by turning off isapnp support
from kernel parameters, but what in the world kind of fun is that????

Unfortunately, I am unable to directly access the firmware stored in
flash memory. The flash chip, or perhaps the bus transceiver it's
attached to for bank switching aren't being properly asserted so the
data bus remains floating. This is what I suspect is making the system
unbootable. This could be due to an incorrect flash chip driver (intel
28F008SA vs AMD 29LV800), an incorrect ISA peripheral chip driver (669
vs 969) or due to unknown modifications elsewhere.

The SX model's flash chip access seems to be a lot simpler than
whatever's going on here. There is an EPM7128 which I do hope is only
modified with additions and not with any explicit efforts to prevent
flash memory access. I can only assume there's been modifications, as I
suspect this CPLD has to do with DMA boundary scan stuff, since the
technical reference manual for the LX164 mentions an EPM7032 for such a
task.

Finally we come to my reason for being here. I have determined several
options but most of them would require help from an Expert(tm), and
since I don't have any haunted video terminals to do a seance with, I
have little choice but to bother you all with my nonsense.

My first impulse is to use the alphaPC development kit materials to
adjust what peripherals are compiled in. I'm convinced that if I can
compile some new PALcode with the correct drivers loaded in, I'll be in
business. I think I maybe might have managed to get a debug monitor ROM
compiled, but I have yet to make it boot. This is all rather difficult
without a functional debugger or an additional working system. At very
least a proper terminal....

Another option that seems semi-viable is to cut apart the segments of
the LX and SX and replace the SX image's PALcode. This is rather
difficult when I am not sure how I might do that, when the image
segments are all compressed individually and then joined in a way which
is unclear. The only reason I feel confident about this is because the
final location of the various segments when they are loaded into memory
is pretty well documented, and the layout of these files seems very
straightforward, not at all meant to be obfuscatory.

The third and most aggressive option I have is to desolder the flash
chip and dump it myself, then disassemble what is on there to find out
just what exactly is being done to activate the flash memory. That one I
can probably manage on my own. I feel comfortable saying the Alpha
architecture's the nicest one I've interacted with sofar. Very tidy.
Shame I was a child in its hayday.

If you made it this far, thanks for taking the time to read my very
long, very first post to the User's Network! Please tell me I'm in the
right place!

-Rob

On 1/10/24 4:22 PM, Rob wrote:

> For some reason the system is detected as a model 164SX, despite seeming
> to have a 21164A (according to the stock firmware diagnostics on the
> front panel of the system), a symbios SCSI chip
<snip>> From there, I'm able to bootstrap OpenVMS, Tru64 and Linux from
CD, but
>  OpenVMS freezes on the copyright notice

I might've missed it but is that CD-ROM connected to the Symbios
controller? My memory is fuzzy but I think that might be the one where
the OpenVMS driver had a poison pill such that it would take itself
offline if the adapter was not DEC/Compaq-branded.

On 2024-01-10 3:47 p.m., Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 1/10/24 4:22 PM, Rob wrote:
>
>> For some reason the system is detected as a model 164SX, despite
>> seeming to have a 21164A (according to the stock firmware diagnostics
>> on the front panel of the system), a symbios SCSI chip
> <snip>>  From there, I'm able to bootstrap OpenVMS, Tru64 and Linux from
> CD, but
>>   OpenVMS freezes on the copyright notice
>
> I might've missed it but is that CD-ROM connected to the Symbios
> controller?  My memory is fuzzy but I think that might be the one where
> the OpenVMS driver had a poison pill such that it would take itself
> offline if the adapter was not DEC/Compaq-branded.
>

I apologize for my previous reply, it was poorly formatted, not
proofread and also, not sent to the group. I am still trying to figure
this out. I hope this one went to the right place. If I've doinked it
*again*, I'm sorry, *again*, and I'll be back in a bit after I've
re-read some instructions.

I'll also admit I'm very excited to be here, I honestly didn't think
this place would still be active, and the google groups situation made
me think Usenet was burning down! I was obviously mistaken.

To answer the question, yes, the CDROM drive is attached to the Symbios
57c875. Another of this board's quirks is the IDE connectors have been
removed entirely.

On 1/10/2024 7:08 PM, Rob wrote:
> On 2024-01-10 3:47 p.m., Craig A. Berry wrote:
>> On 1/10/24 4:22 PM, Rob wrote:
>>
>>> For some reason the system is detected as a model 164SX, despite seeming to
>>> have a 21164A (according to the stock firmware diagnostics on the front panel
>>> of the system), a symbios SCSI chip
>> <snip>> From there, I'm able to bootstrap OpenVMS, Tru64 and Linux from CD, but
>>> OpenVMS freezes on the copyright notice
>>
>> I might've missed it but is that CD-ROM connected to the Symbios
>> controller? My memory is fuzzy but I think that might be the one where
>> the OpenVMS driver had a poison pill such that it would take itself
>> offline if the adapter was not DEC/Compaq-branded.
>>
>
> I apologize for my previous reply, it was poorly formatted, not proofread and
> also, not sent to the group. I am still trying to figure this out. I hope this
> one went to the right place. If I've doinked it *again*, I'm sorry, *again*, and
> I'll be back in a bit after I've re-read some instructions.
>
> I'll also admit I'm very excited to be here, I honestly didn't think this place
> would still be active, and the google groups situation made me think Usenet was
> burning down! I was obviously mistaken.
>
> To answer the question, yes, the CDROM drive is attached to the Symbios 57c875.
> Another of this board's quirks is the IDE connectors have been removed entirely.

I'm curious. Are you playing with that system because it's all you have? Or is
there something special about it. Old Alpha systems should not be too hard to
find. I've got a bunch of AlphaStation 200 boxes laying around. Gonna go to
the scrap yard sometime.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2024-01-10 10:55 p.m., Dave Froble wrote:
> On 1/10/2024 7:08 PM, Rob wrote:
>> On 2024-01-10 3:47 p.m., Craig A. Berry wrote:
>>> On 1/10/24 4:22 PM, Rob wrote:
>>>
>>>> For some reason the system is detected as a model 164SX, despite
>>>> seeming to
>>>> have a 21164A (according to the stock firmware diagnostics on the
>>>> front panel
>>>> of the system), a symbios SCSI chip
>>> <snip>>  From there, I'm able to bootstrap OpenVMS, Tru64 and Linux
>>> from CD, but
>>>>   OpenVMS freezes on the copyright notice
>>>
>>> I might've missed it but is that CD-ROM connected to the Symbios
>>> controller?  My memory is fuzzy but I think that might be the one where
>>> the OpenVMS driver had a poison pill such that it would take itself
>>> offline if the adapter was not DEC/Compaq-branded.
>>>
>>
>> I apologize for my previous reply, it was poorly formatted, not
>> proofread and
>> also, not sent to the group. I am still trying to figure this out. I
>> hope this
>> one went to the right place. If I've doinked it *again*, I'm sorry,
>> *again*, and
>> I'll be back in a bit after I've re-read some instructions.
>>
>> I'll also admit I'm very excited to be here, I honestly didn't think
>> this place
>> would still be active, and the google groups situation made me think
>> Usenet was
>> burning down! I was obviously mistaken.
>>
>> To answer the question, yes, the CDROM drive is attached to the
>> Symbios 57c875.
>> Another of this board's quirks is the IDE connectors have been removed
>> entirely.
>
> I'm curious.  Are you playing with that system because it's all you
> have?  Or is there something special about it.  Old Alpha systems should
> not be too hard to find.  I've got a bunch of AlphaStation 200 boxes
> laying around.  Gonna go to the scrap yard sometime.
>

As to why I have this one, it's because it's all I've got. I have
unfortunately been disconnected from other technically inclined folks
for longer than I'd like and have not had access to the places where DEC
hardware might dwell in dark corners for me to acquire through sincere
human connection and/or Canadian-grade politeness.

As to *how* I have this one, it was at the e-waste sitting next to a PWS
433a priced 1500 dollars. They didn't know what either of them were,
just what they go for on ebay. It was the first time in a very long time
I've seen something with a 21x64 in it that wasn't marked above a
thousand dollars, nevermind in-person, because of the mania surrounding
"Classic Computers". Mania that will surely wain before long, as these
aren't collectable toys like the glorified terminals people used as home
computers when these were contemporary.

I am not a professional who has ever had any real experience with VMS or
DEC systems, I'm just very enthusiastic. I'm also not trying to light up
my brain with the sensation of how "Valuable" the object itself is,
causing me to blindly hoard what is otherwise comedically outdated
hardware. The "specialness" I see here comes from the care and attention
put into the design of these things, and just how accessible everything
is at such a low level. I keep being surprised at how far I can get on
my own with just whatever documentation made it into online archives and
I do not credit my own skill for this. I am choosing to interpret my
lack of incumbrance as a sign of respect from people I will likely never
meet. I haven't even got it to boot an operating system yet!

Part of it is I feel as though I have been presented with a challenge i
am now stubbornly committed to, part of it is I've been presented with
an excellent learning experience I wouldn't otherwise be privileged
enough to engage with, but if I'm being honest a lot of it is "trying on
clothes that are too big for me". This stuff is *The Real Deal*. Maybe
part of it is I'm tired of everything being such untrustworthy, busted
crap all the time.

-Rob

On 2024-01-11 2:20 p.m., Rob wrote:
> I am not a professional who has ever had any real experience with VMS or
> DEC systems, I'm just very enthusiastic. I'm also not trying to light up
> my brain with the sensation of how "Valuable" the object itself is,
> causing me to blindly hoard what is otherwise comedically outdated
> hardware. The "specialness" I see here comes from the care and attention
> put into the design of these things, and just how accessible everything
> is at such a low level. I keep being surprised at how far I can get on
> my own with just whatever documentation made it into online archives and
> I do not credit my own skill for this. I am choosing to interpret my
> lack of incumbrance as a sign of respect from people I will likely never
> meet. I haven't even got it to boot an operating system yet!
>
> Part of it is I feel as though I have been presented with a challenge i
> am now stubbornly committed to, part of it is I've been presented with
> an excellent learning experience I wouldn't otherwise be privileged
> enough to engage with, but if I'm being honest a lot of it is "trying on
> clothes that are too big for me". This stuff is *The Real Deal*. Maybe
> part of it is I'm tired of everything being such untrustworthy, busted
> crap all the time.

I hope you get somewhere. It doesn't sound like you have 4 other
project deadlines, or a boss breathing down your neck to get it done, so
you can take your time and enjoy the hobby at your own pace.

The people here don't tend to withhold information or knowledge that
they have, from what I've seen, but sometimes you can run into a
situation where very few have the information or knowledge being sought
in 2024. That's a challenge that will probably only get worse as time
passes.

Things look more promising on the OS side these day, with the x86_64
activity. People are starting to remember what they knew previously, as
well as gaining interesting new knowledge.

On 2024-01-11 3:41 p.m., nhmall wrote:
> On 2024-01-11 2:20 p.m., Rob wrote:
>> I am not a professional who has ever had any real experience with VMS
>> or DEC systems, I'm just very enthusiastic. I'm also not trying to
>> light up my brain with the sensation of how "Valuable" the object
>> itself is, causing me to blindly hoard what is otherwise comedically
>> outdated hardware. The "specialness" I see here comes from the care
>> and attention put into the design of these things, and just how
>> accessible everything is at such a low level. I keep being surprised
>> at how far I can get on my own with just whatever documentation made
>> it into online archives and I do not credit my own skill for this. I
>> am choosing to interpret my lack of incumbrance as a sign of respect
>> from people I will likely never meet. I haven't even got it to boot an
>> operating system yet!
>>
>> Part of it is I feel as though I have been presented with a challenge
>> i am now stubbornly committed to, part of it is I've been presented
>> with an excellent learning experience I wouldn't otherwise be
>> privileged enough to engage with, but if I'm being honest a lot of it
>> is "trying on clothes that are too big for me". This stuff is *The
>> Real Deal*. Maybe part of it is I'm tired of everything being such
>> untrustworthy, busted crap all the time.
>
> I hope you get somewhere.  It doesn't sound like you have 4 other
> project deadlines, or a boss breathing down your neck to get it done, so
> you can take your time and enjoy the hobby at your own pace.
>
> The people here don't tend to withhold information or knowledge that
> they have, from what I've seen, but sometimes you can run into a
> situation where very few have the information or knowledge being sought
> in 2024. That's a challenge that will probably only get worse as time
> passes.
>
> Things look more promising on the OS side these day, with the x86_64
> activity. People are starting to remember what they knew previously, as
> well as gaining interesting new knowledge.
>

Heh, yeah, you're right. Part of people having "four other projects" is
that at least two of those projects probably should have four people on
them to begin with. People who aren't going to be hired because they
cost money. Or maybe the neck-breather just doesn't understand any of
the projects to begin with.

You've also touched on several things I've been running into a lot.

I come from an electronics background in Canada (rip), so "withholding
of information" is nothing new. More of a general gripe on this topic,
but also, forum-goers deciding that "Just Google It!!" was an acceptable
response, not realizing that, hey, maybe that's harmful to the
information ecosystem because now googling it shows up all the forum
posts telling people to google it! Great! Awesome!

The lack of knowledgable people is also something I lament, because as
I've mentioned, I've been pretty isolated and a result of that is being
unable to learn from past generations. Documentation is great and all
but it rarely provides the same context as being next to someone, being
shown on a living, active system not only what to do but also what to
expect in reaction to what you've done, in terms of a system's
behaviour. Or maybe there's some trick to make things work better that
was never in the original documentation. Or for that matter, learning
from Experienced Adults how to create or even actually function inside
the structure of a larger organization working towards a technical
development goal! There is a serious lack of that kind of
knowledge/experience out here in the dirt, in "Small Business" land.

context of my attitudes: my last job was for a government subcontractor.
I shouldn't need to elaborate. Not here.

-Rob

On 1/11/2024 6:10 PM, Rob wrote:
>
> Heh, yeah, you're right. Part of people having "four other projects" is
> that at least two of those projects probably should have four people on
> them to begin with.

If it takes one person 6 months to complete a project, how long
will it take 6 people.

RIP Fred Brooks.

bill