Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?

THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>
> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>

No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.

Hmmm ... I detect a lack of sufficient exposure to VMS, perhaps ...

From my VAX V7.2 system:

$ di [0,0] (system disk)

Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000,000]

000000.DIR;1 2/2 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,E)
BACKUP.DIR;1 1/1 [BACKUP] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
BACKUP.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
BADBLK.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
BADLOG.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
BHC.DIR;1 1/1 [50,110] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
BITMAP.SYS;1 512/512 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
CONTIN.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
CORIMG.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
DAS.DIR;1 1/1 [DAS] (RWE,RWE,RE,)
DASV2.DIR;1 1/1 [DAS] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
DAVE2.DIR;1 1/1 [DAVE2] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
DFE.DIR;1 18/19 [DFE] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
INDEXF.SYS;1 9897/9897 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
SECURITY.SYS;1 1/1 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)
SYS0.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
SYSE.DIR;1 1/1 [1,1] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
SYSEXE.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (R,R,,)
SYSMAINT.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
TCPIP$FINGER.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$FTP.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$ROUTED.DIR;1 1/1 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$TFTP.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
TCPIP$TFTP_ROOT.DIR;1 1/1 [TCPIP$AUX (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
VIO.DIR;1 1/1 [50,5] (RWE,RWE,RE,E)
VMS$COMMON.DIR;1 3/3 [SYSTEM] (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)
VOLSET.SYS;1 0/0 [1,1] (RWED,RWED,RE,)

Total of 27 files, 10448/10449 blocks.

Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are top level
directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0], [000000], or [000,000].
Don't ask me why more than one method. I don't know.

Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in that
directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is temporary, and will
be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS distribution files.

What is your specific question(s)?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>
>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>
>
> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure
> is reasonable.
>

What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.

In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?

bill

On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>
>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>
>>
>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
>> reasonable.
>>
>
> What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
>
> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
> lots of "roots"?
>
> bill
>
>

Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 27/01/2024 17:13, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>>
>>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory
>>> structure is
>>> reasonable.
>>>
>>
>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
>>
>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
>> lots of "roots"?
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>
> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
>
The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5

It had many different file systems - an IBM one with libraries and disk
pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a
few more I never used.

What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!

--
Chris

Den 2024-01-27 kl. 19:02, skrev Chris Townley:
> On 27/01/2024 17:13, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>>>
>>>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
>>>> reasonable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
>>>
>>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
>>> lots of "roots"?
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
>>
> The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5
>
> It had many different file systems - an IBM one with  libraries and disk
> pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a few
> more I never used.
>
> What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices, but
> wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another. Useful
> unless you knew what was on which drive!
>

No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical storage
volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.

On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> > Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
> > there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
> >
> > THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
> > equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?

[ snip ]

> Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
> top level directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
> [000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
> don't know.

Looks like some form of octal?

> Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
> that directory.  I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
> temporary, and will be re-inited sometime.  Usually some OS
> distribution files.
>
> What is your specific question(s)?

All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.

In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:

$ dir/page

Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]

ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26 IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
LAN$ACP.LOG;28
LAN$ACP.LOG;27 LAN$ACP.LOG;26 MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1
NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
OPERATOR.LOG;30 OPERATOR.LOG;29 OPERATOR.LOG;28 ssh.DIR;1
SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1 SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2
SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28
SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26
SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1
TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
VMSIMAGES.DAT;1 X86Community-20240401.txt;1

Total of 25 files.

Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]

ACME$START.COM;1 ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1 AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1
AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
[ snip ]

Why does it shows me two directories?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 12:13 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
> > What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple
> > tree.
> >
> > In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
> > having lots of "roots"?
>
> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other
directories and other things.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

In article <up3dj4$3f7b4$2@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>>
>>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
>>> reasonable.
>>>
>>
>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
>>
>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
>> lots of "roots"?
>
>Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???

Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?

- Dan C.

In article <71762a4e82693ff615a946a48833795cf2c55b70.camel@munted.eu>,
Single Stage to Orbit <alex.buell@munted.eu> wrote:
>On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
>All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
>each disk.
>
>In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
>this:
>
>$ dir/page
>
>[snip]
>
>Why does it shows me two directories?

The magic of logical names! A single logical name can refer to
more than one thing (disk, directory, filename, whatever).

Perhpas see what, `show log sys$login` says?

- Da C.

On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2024-01-27 kl. 19:02, skrev Chris Townley:
>> What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
>> but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
>> Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!
>
> No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical
> storage volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.

Yes. But disks are visible in the full file names, so you know.

Arne

On 1/27/2024 1:34 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 12:13 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple
>>> tree.
>>>
>>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
>>> having lots of "roots"?
>>
>> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
>
> It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other
> directories and other things.

Yes.

000000.dir is the root directory on each disk.

It is a little bit special that it contains itself.

disk:[foobar]
disk:[000000.foobar]
disk:[000000.000000.foobar]

are all the same.

Arne

On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
>> Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
>> top level directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
>> [000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
>> don't know.
>
> Looks like some form of octal?

[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].

I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.

Arne

Op 27.jan.2024 om 20:55 schreef Arne Vajhøj:
> On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>> On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
>>> top level  directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
>>> [000000], or [000,000].  Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
>>> don't know.
>>
>> Looks like some form of octal?
>
> [0,0] is a synonym for [000000].
>
> I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
> but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
> can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.

Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and one
(non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
form for compatibility.

On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
> this:
>
> $ dir/page
>
> Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]

> Total of 25 files.
>
> Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]

> [ snip ]
>
> Why does it shows me two directories?

Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.

Let us start with the practical version.

In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.

When opening an existing file all in the list are searched.

When creating a new file it get created in the first
in the list.

It is rarely used by VMS users.

But it is used by VMS itself.

SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[SYSn.SYSMGR]
SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] *and*
disk:[SYSn.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR]

It is a cluster thing.

disk:[SYS0.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 0
disk:[SYS1.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 1
disk:[SYS2.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 2

disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] =
disk:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS2.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] contains
files shared by all 3 nodes

So as a system manager you can have COM files specific for a node
or shared for all nodes.

Powerful.

But also potential confusing.

Arne

On 1/27/2024 3:06 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>> In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
>> this:
>>
>> $ dir/page
>>
>> Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
>
>> Total of 25 files.
>>
>> Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
>
>> [ snip ]
>>
>> Why does it shows me two directories?
>
> Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
>
> Let us start with the practical version.
>
> In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
> a single directory - it can actually be a list of
> directories.
>
> When opening an existing file all in the list are searched.
>
> When creating a new file it get created in the first
> in the list.
>
> It is rarely used by VMS users.
>
> But it is used by VMS itself.
>
> SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[SYSn.SYSMGR]
> SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] *and*
> disk:[SYSn.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR]
>
> It is a cluster thing.
>
> disk:[SYS0.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 0
> disk:[SYS1.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 1
> disk:[SYS2.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 2
>
> disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] =
> disk:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS2.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] contains
> files shared by all 3 nodes
>
> So as a system manager you can have COM files specific for a node
> or shared for all nodes.
>
> Powerful.
>
> But also potential confusing.

And regarding the technical stuff behind it, then
it is possible because:
* the device part and the directory part of default
are store separately (in a logical SYS$DISK and
in process memory respectively)
* the device part does not need to be a device only
but can be a device plus a directory accessed via
a so called rooted logical
* a logical can have multiple values

Here comes a user example.

$ dir [...]

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.

$ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ dir funroot:[000000]

Directory FUNROOT:[000000]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.
$ dir morefunroot:[000000]

Directory MOREFUNROOT:[000000]

morefun.txt;1

Total of 1 file.

$ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
$ dir doublefunroot:[000000]

Directory funroot:[000000]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory morefunroot:[000000]

morefun.txt;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.

Arne

On 1/27/2024 3:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Here comes a user example.
>
> $ dir [...]
>
> Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]
>
> fun.txt;1           morefun.DIR;1
>
> Total of 2 files.
>
> Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]
>
> morefun.txt;1
>
> Total of 1 file.
>
> Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.
>
> $ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
> $ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
> $ dir funroot:[000000]
>
> Directory FUNROOT:[000000]
>
> fun.txt;1           morefun.DIR;1
>
> Total of 2 files.
> $ dir morefunroot:[000000]
>
> Directory MOREFUNROOT:[000000]
>
> morefun.txt;1
>
> Total of 1 file.
>
> $ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
> $ dir doublefunroot:[000000]
>
> Directory funroot:[000000]
>
> fun.txt;1           morefun.DIR;1
>
> Total of 2 files.
>
> Directory morefunroot:[000000]
>
> morefun.txt;1
>
> Total of 1 file.
>
> Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.

Just realized that it does not really show why
all that stuff is needed.

More complex example:

$ dir [.fun...]

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 4 directories, 7 files.
$ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
$ set def doublefunroot:[000000]
$ dir

Directory funroot:[000000]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory morefunroot:[000000]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.
$ set def [.sub]
$ dir

Directory funroot:[000000.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Directory morefunroot:[000000.sub]

z.z;1

Total of 1 file.

Grand total of 2 directories, 2 files.

$ define/nolog notfun DKA0:[arne.fun],DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]
$ set def notfun
$ dir

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.
$ set def [.sub]
$ dir

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]

fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]

morefun.txt;1 sub.DIR;1

Total of 2 files.

Grand total of 2 directories, 5 files.

Arne

On 1/27/2024 2:38 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <up3dj4$3f7b4$2@dont-email.me>,
> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>>>
>>>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
>>>> reasonable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
>>>
>>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
>>> lots of "roots"?
>>
>> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
>
> Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
> it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
> consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
> will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
> than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
> Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
> criteria?
>
> - Dan C.
>

But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...

:-)

As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>
>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>
> [ snip ]
>
>> Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
>> top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
>> [000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
>> don't know.
>
> Looks like some form of octal?
>
>> Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
>> that directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
>> temporary, and will be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS
>> distribution files.
>>
>> What is your specific question(s)?
>
> All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
> each disk.
>
> In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
> this:
>
> $ dir/page
>
> Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
>
> ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28
> CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
> CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26 IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
> LAN$ACP.LOG;28
> LAN$ACP.LOG;27 LAN$ACP.LOG;26 MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1
> NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
> OPERATOR.LOG;30 OPERATOR.LOG;29 OPERATOR.LOG;28 ssh.DIR;1
> SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1 SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2
> SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28
> SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26
> SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1
> TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
> VMSIMAGES.DAT;1 X86Community-20240401.txt;1
>
> Total of 25 files.
>
> Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
>
> ACME$START.COM;1 ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1
> AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
> AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1 AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1
> AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
> [ snip ]
>
> Why does it shows me two directories?
>

It can be a bit confusing until you understand the rather neat thing that was
done with VMS.

I guess there was the desire to allow for multiple copies of the OS on the
system disk. Thus SYS0, SYS1, SYS2, ...

One can choose to boot into any of the SYS? that has a copy of VMS in that
particular structure. Try that with WEENDOZE ...

Actually, WEENDOZE has something a bit similar.

From the VAX:

$ sho log sys$system
"SYS$SYSTEM" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)
$ sho log sys$manager
"SYS$MANAGER" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)
$ sho log sys$sysroot
"SYS$SYSROOT" = "DFE90A$DKA0:[SYS0.]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)
= "SYS$COMMON:"
1 "SYS$COMMON" = "DFE90A$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)

Note the SYS$SYSROOT and SYS$COMMON. The common stuff allows access to what it
points to regardless of which version of the OS was booted.

Then there are the rooted directories, which I won't get into because that can
get a bit complex.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:55:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> [0,0] is a synonym for [000000].

Almost: you can write

[000000...]

but, as I recall, you can’t write

[0,0...]

On 1/27/2024 3:05 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 27.jan.2024 om 20:55 schreef Arne Vajhøj:
>> On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> Each disk has what you are calling a root directory.  Within it are
>>>> top level  directorys.  The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
>>>> [000000], or [000,000].  Don't ask me why more than one method.  I
>>>> don't know.
>>>
>>> Looks like some form of octal?
>>
>> [0,0] is a synonym for [000000].
>>
>> I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
>> but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
>> can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.
>
> Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and one
> (non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
> VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
> form for compatibility.
>

RSTS had the same thing.

bill

On 1/27/2024 1:02 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 27/01/2024 17:13, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>>>
>>>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory
>>>> structure is
>>>> reasonable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
>>>
>>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
>>> lots of "roots"?
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
>>
> The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5
>
> It had many different file systems - an IBM one with  libraries and disk
> pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a
> few more I never used.
>
> What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,

Device names were never hidden. Just type the right command to see what
they are. df would do it.

As for "mv". Probably a bad naming choice as it didn't really "move"
a file. It renamed it. So, for obvious reasons, trying to rename a
file to be on another disk would be silly. But if you really needed
command to do it, it was trivial to write a script to move the file
and delete the original in any of the shells and make it a command.

bill

> but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
> Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!
>

On 1/27/2024 6:18 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 1/27/2024 2:38 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <up3dj4$3f7b4$2@dont-email.me>,
>> Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
>>>> On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>>>>>> Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
>>>>>> there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
>>>>>> equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory
>>>>> structure is
>>>>> reasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is weird about the Unix directory structure?  It is a simple tree.
>>>>
>>>> In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
>>>> having
>>>> lots of "roots"?
>>>
>>> Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
>>
>> Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
>> it isn't very enlightened.  If that's the metric one judges by,
>> consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
>> will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
>> than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
>> Mac or Windows.  Who's to say who's right under such subjective
>> criteria?
>>
>>     - Dan C.
>>
>
> But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
>
> :-)
>
> As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.
>

Actually, all of them are right.

bill

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 20:30:48 -0500, bill wrote:

> On 1/27/2024 3:05 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>
>> Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and one
>> (non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
>> VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
>> form for compatibility.
>>
>>
> RSTS had the same thing.

In RSTS/E they were decimal.

Also I think VMS inherited some odd conventions from RSX-11. Like why did
LOGINOUT processes always start running under UIC [10,40]?

Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
>Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
>it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
>consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
>will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
>than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
>Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
>criteria?

The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!
--scott