On 4/12/2024 8:56 AM, bill wrote:
> On 4/12/2024 8:32 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2024-04-12, mjos_examine <m6502x64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-11 8:53 p.m., David Goodwin wrote:
>>>> how many
>>>> people really want to have to setup their OpenVMS instances from
>>>> scratch
>>>> every year?
>>>
>>>
>>> A baseline canned virtual machine for an OS is often how cloud-based
>>> Continuous Integration begins each of its passes. Once that baseline VM
>>> is running, all the customization, add-ons and unique bits then get
>>> applied hands-free by scripts, often laid out by a yml file, or similar
>>> mechanism.
>>>
>>
>> That could be an opportunity for someone to develop, if they get too
>> annoyed by having to rebuild their servers every year.
>>
>> Hopefully based on JSON proper and not that yaml nonsense however...
>>
>> [I dislike yaml with a passion. It's way too fragile and JSON is just
>> as easy to read if you layout each JSON element indented on a new line.]
>
> Hmmmmm....  I wonder if this could be done with something like CFEngine?

They probably could. But industry preference seem to be for other
tools.

TerraForm/OpenTofu, Ansible, Chef, Puppet, Github Actions, Jenkins, k8s,
OKD, Istio, Helm etc. are tools that seem to be in fashion.

Arne

On 4/12/2024 9:13 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/12/2024 8:56 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 4/12/2024 8:32 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-12, mjos_examine <m6502x64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-11 8:53 p.m., David Goodwin wrote:
>>>>> how many
>>>>> people really want to have to setup their OpenVMS instances from
>>>>> scratch
>>>>> every year?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A baseline canned virtual machine for an OS is often how cloud-based
>>>> Continuous Integration begins each of its passes. Once that baseline VM
>>>> is running, all the customization, add-ons and unique bits then get
>>>> applied hands-free by scripts, often laid out by a yml file, or similar
>>>> mechanism.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That could be an opportunity for someone to develop, if they get too
>>> annoyed by having to rebuild their servers every year.
>>>
>>> Hopefully based on JSON proper and not that yaml nonsense however...
>>>
>>> [I dislike yaml with a passion. It's way too fragile and JSON is just
>>> as easy to read if you layout each JSON element indented on a new line.]
>>
>> Hmmmmm....  I wonder if this could be done with something like CFEngine?
>
> They probably could. But industry preference seem to be for other
> tools.

Industry prefers other OSes, too. Are all the VMS users moving? :-)

>
> TerraForm/OpenTofu, Ansible, Chef, Puppet, Github Actions, Jenkins, k8s,
> OKD, Istio, Helm etc. are tools that seem to be in fashion.
>
> Arne
>
>

bill

In article <l7su2iFn3sjU1@mid.individual.net>,
bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 4/12/2024 9:13 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/12/2024 8:56 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 4/12/2024 8:32 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-12, mjos_examine <m6502x64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-04-11 8:53 p.m., David Goodwin wrote:
>>>>>> how many
>>>>>> people really want to have to setup their OpenVMS instances from
>>>>>> scratch
>>>>>> every year?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A baseline canned virtual machine for an OS is often how cloud-based
>>>>> Continuous Integration begins each of its passes. Once that baseline VM
>>>>> is running, all the customization, add-ons and unique bits then get
>>>>> applied hands-free by scripts, often laid out by a yml file, or similar
>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That could be an opportunity for someone to develop, if they get too
>>>> annoyed by having to rebuild their servers every year.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully based on JSON proper and not that yaml nonsense however...
>>>>
>>>> [I dislike yaml with a passion. It's way too fragile and JSON is just
>>>> as easy to read if you layout each JSON element indented on a new line.]
>>>
>>> Hmmmmm....  I wonder if this could be done with something like CFEngine?
>>
>> They probably could. But industry preference seem to be for other
>> tools.
>
>Industry prefers other OSes, too. Are all the VMS users moving? :-)

That's orthogonal, though. This is about something new,
that doesn't yet exist. If you wanted to automate VMS
setup in a VM environment, why use something moribund like
CFEngine and not the (more popular) alternatives? It's
not as though there's a lot of prior experience _on VMS_
that would be negated.

- Dan C.

On 4/12/2024 10:16 AM, bill wrote:
> On 4/12/2024 9:13 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/12/2024 8:56 AM, bill wrote:
>>> On 4/12/2024 8:32 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-12, mjos_examine <m6502x64@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> A baseline canned virtual machine for an OS is often how cloud-based
>>>>> Continuous Integration begins each of its passes. Once that
>>>>> baseline VM
>>>>> is running, all the customization, add-ons and unique bits then get
>>>>> applied hands-free by scripts, often laid out by a yml file, or
>>>>> similar
>>>>> mechanism.
>>>>
>>>> That could be an opportunity for someone to develop, if they get too
>>>> annoyed by having to rebuild their servers every year.

>>> Hmmmmm....  I wonder if this could be done with something like CFEngine?
>>
>> They probably could. But industry preference seem to be for other
>> tools.
>
> Industry prefers other OSes, too.  Are all the VMS users moving?  :-)

No.

But that is not a good reason to go an unusual way with VMS.

VMS being available on x86-64 and common hypervisors make
VMS fit better into various IT strategies.

But having VMS use different tool sets than other OS will
sort of negate that positive development.

Arne

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> But having VMS use different tool sets than other OS will
> sort of negate that positive development.

This is a chicken-and-egg problem: I don't expect companies like Perforce
(Puppet) or RedHat (Ansible) to start work on a VMS port unless there is
a strong business case.

--
Stefan

On 4/12/2024 10:56 AM, Stefan Möding wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>> But having VMS use different tool sets than other OS will
>> sort of negate that positive development.
>
> This is a chicken-and-egg problem: I don't expect companies like Perforce
> (Puppet) or RedHat (Ansible) to start work on a VMS port unless there is
> a strong business case.

True.

We are discussing the direction we want to go.

It may be a very long and hard way to get there.

But before we start walking we should ensure that we walk in the right
direction.

And almost all of that stuff is open source. Which means that
at least in theory the VMS open source developers could do
an unofficial port.

Hopefully the VMS changes would go back upstream.

And if the unofficial port becomes a huge success, then maybe
the company behind it will make VMS a supported platform
or maybe VSI would want to pick it up.

Lots of if's and a good portion of wishful thinking.

But that is what a vision usually is.

Arne

On 4/12/24 7:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2024-04-09, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>> The changes to the hobbyist program have made it to The Register:
>>
>> https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/09/vsi_prunes_hobbyist_prog/
>>
>> A number of comments about, ermm, "ways" to bypass the VSI limitations.
>>
>> I wonder what the reaction of those people will be if VSI just outright
>> cancels the whole program in response, while blaming "certain attitudes"
>> for that decision ?
>>
>
> Now on Slashdot as well:
>
> https://tech.slashdot.org/story/24/04/11/014223/vms-software-prunes-openvms-hobbyist-program

and on OSNews:

https://www.osnews.com/story/139246/vms-software-guts-its-community-licensing-program/

On 2024-04-15, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
> On 4/12/24 7:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2024-04-09, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>> The changes to the hobbyist program have made it to The Register:
>>>
>>> https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/09/vsi_prunes_hobbyist_prog/
>>>
>>> A number of comments about, ermm, "ways" to bypass the VSI limitations.
>>>
>>> I wonder what the reaction of those people will be if VSI just outright
>>> cancels the whole program in response, while blaming "certain attitudes"
>>> for that decision ?
>>>
>>
>> Now on Slashdot as well:
>>
>> https://tech.slashdot.org/story/24/04/11/014223/vms-software-prunes-openvms-hobbyist-program
>
> and on OSNews:
>
> https://www.osnews.com/story/139246/vms-software-guts-its-community-licensing-program/
>

Interesting link thanks.

The comments are even more interesting: Yet another bunch of clueless
people who think WNT is a reimplemented VMS and have no understanding
or knowledge of MICA/PRISM. :-)

There is _nothing_ in the VMS kernel code that can be directly used elsewhere.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

One has to wonder how many others, like myself, could maybe make
contributions to the community, if only we'd ever been able to get a
license.

I applied over a year ago, was granted IA64 licenses but my box wouldn't
start, so I just waited for the x86 licenses that never materialized, and
now likely never will.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 5:00 AM Craig A. Berry via Info-vax <
info-vax@rbnsn.com> wrote:

> On 4/12/24 7:35 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > On 2024-04-09, Simon Clubley
> <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
> >> The changes to the hobbyist program have made it to The Register:
> >>
> >> https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/09/vsi_prunes_hobbyist_prog/
> >>
> >> A number of comments about, ermm, "ways" to bypass the VSI limitations..
> >>
> >> I wonder what the reaction of those people will be if VSI just outright
> >> cancels the whole program in response, while blaming "certain attitudes"
> >> for that decision ?
> >>
> >
> > Now on Slashdot as well:
> >
> >
> https://tech.slashdot.org/story/24/04/11/014223/vms-software-prunes-openvms-hobbyist-program
>
> and on OSNews:
>
>
> https://www.osnews.com/story/139246/vms-software-guts-its-community-licensing-program/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Info-vax mailing list
> Info-vax@rbnsn.com
> http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com
>

--
Dean Woodward =o&o
dean.woodward@gmail.com